[This message edited by LonelyBH at 2:21 PM, March 5th (Tuesday)]
It really depends on the individuals involved. For some, one was too much and they divorced. For others, they are dealing with 25+ ow and are trying to R. Only you can determine what you are willing to accept.
If you want them to quit stabbing you in the back, then you need to quit handing them the knife.
So sorry you find yourself here, we are here to help you navigate through this mess as best we can. Others will be along very soon.
My question isnt simple, but is there an amount of betrayal so high (say 10 OM, or 2 years of sex with 1 OM mixed with more OM)that it would be too much for any hope of Reconciliation, even where the WS is truly remorseful and truly will do anything to prove her worth and remorse to her family?
You are right, this is not an easy question. Everybody is diffeent. I have seen some here that kissing another person was enough to end a marriage and others that have reconciled after unspeakable things happened.
A remorseful spouse generally helps, but for some its just a deal breaker. I agree with others on here that D is easier than R, but there are many success stories for R'd marriages.
Do you have what you believe is the truth from your WW?
You are the only who can say what is too much to recover from. If both of you are wanting to R and are committed to it then you can do it. If you want to, and your spouse is not committed, it won't work. The opposite is true as well.
No One says you have to make a decision right away either. Take some time to absorb what happened, digest it. Think about what it will take from her for you to heal from this. Again this can be a very simple list of things or can be as complex as calculus. Only you know what that is.
I found initially it helped me a lot to journal or write down what I was thinking I needed, and what I expected. I was such an emotional sleep deprived wreck that when we talked I just couldn't make my brain work well. This gave me something to reference to.
Please read the healing library. There is a ton of information, and a few "recipies" on how to do this.
Wishing you hugs and strength.
[This message edited by LonelyBH at 1:58 AM, March 10th (Sunday)]
There is always hope where there is remorse and a willingness to look at oneself.
There are WSs that just slip up, there are others that are cruel, mean, and selfish in their hearts (pathological), and there are those who are completely emotionally screwed up and end up killing all those around them.
It sounds like your WW is of the last category. It will be a lot of work. She may not be able to do it. It's good that she wants to try.
I would just wait to see what happens. I would let her show you how screwed up she is. She will not be able to fix herself if she still has secrets.
[This message edited by MC_Jack at 3:47 PM, March 5th (Tuesday)]
I don't know what that letter has in store for you, but whatever it is, someone on this board will have been through something similar. You will not be alone.
For me, if it helps, it's been the lies, and the sneaking under my nose, (which I knew about but chose to wait to confront as we do), which continue after d-day and the affair of WH is still going. In my mind, lying and sneaking are part of disrespect and if we are not respected by our spouses or primary partners, what good is it for us, really?
And I'm finally getting to the realization that if our WS's are out seeking other people, their interest in us is not there but we are interested in them and their lives, but what good is it for us and our peace of mind and OUR needs? It's taken me a long, long while to realize that-that now my own needs are basically being ignored by him and they amplified with pregnancy.
When we were together, I put all my energy into my marriage and daughter. I was the proverbial housewife, lived for my famiy and them coming home. Another part that's too much is relative to that, because while I worked so damn hard on making nice times for us all, he worked on sneaking and lying in return.
When I have started to be able to accept the reality of the deception to me, it's helped me work on the question you posed, "how much is too much?"
My neighbor has been divorced three years from a cheating man and says "you know". In your heart one day, you sit down with a thud, whereever on earth you are, and you feel it in your gut, your bones, your heart. You simply know. Without a doubt.
The other day it hit me like an oncoming car that I don't think he's truly coming back, and maybe that's a little bit what she means. Where I had to sit was a huge snowbank, but I did and the cold helped my thinking kind of snap as to what he's really, truly been doing behind my back.
And I will wonder, possibly forever, if it's going to happen again.
Is the pain tolerable another time? The further on we go in time, for me, it's not.
Also, the blatancy of his putting the affair on Facebook and other websites while still married haunt me and leave me feeling mocked and publicly humiliated, so for me, this is too much.
Lastly, my WH is "confessing" to family members, but not ending the affair and not living here, so that's rather clear for me as well.
A person is a person, no matter how small. -Dr. Suess
Perserverance and spirit have done wonders in all ages.
So no, there is never a threshold with a remorseful spouse. It is not the quanity, but the quality of her attempts to apologize and make it up to you.
Hugs, hang in there, but don't buy false remorse. K
I'll give you an example using myself (which is why I think you are asking). I had always suspected my ex-WS of having an A with co-worker and when she would, ostensibly, joke about what would happen if I was right (of course, just after denying and saying I was crazy) I would say, well, your job would end immediately. When things finally came to light and I, unfortunately, discovered my suspicions were correct all along and thought that it would be a deal-breaker I actually tried to R (after I kicked her out and she stayed with her parents for three weeks). What made the decision for me was that she kept TTing and there was a second DDay. I guess I kinda felt all along that if I didn't see and hear what I wanted, it would be over. The sad truth is, no WS EVER tells the whole truth initially, NEVER. They have kept their secret too long to just give you the benefit, courtesy of the whole truth, so if I had to do it all over again, I would have never put myself through R only to have another DDay. The second DDay was like going through this twice, very painful, and once was enough. You will discover that most of us have gone through more than one DDay.
One other thing that assisted me with my decision was when I told my dad that "I don't think I can do this" meaning R, his response to me was not what I was expecting, he said, "well just move one, divorce her." I wasn't expecting him to say that, but for me D was absolutely the right decision as I found out so much more later and now see her true colors (she is awful) and am so glad I don't have to live with that anymore.
It's very difficult to contemplate D or R, they are both difficult roads. I say go with your gut. Can you picture yourself in a year, what picture looks better? Good luck bro!
[This message edited by jimbo25319 at 9:33 PM, March 6th (Wednesday)]
It might be a wise move to get yourself and your WW tested for STD's. Better safe than sorry.
"Affairs are not mistakes, they are a series of deliberate choices." - CrappyLife
"Regret is when you realize you broke your own heart.
Remorse is when you realize you broke someone else's." - Bla
That said, I know that I hung on wayyyy tooo long. Many years of rugsweeping, etc.
I think I would of said "UNCLE" way sooner if I had found SI way sooner. It really helped to have the folks here to validate his BS and help me see that I deserved more.
It is funny what you can justify or "not see" when you are living it. When I tell people some of my M stories now....I can't believe how I didn't see it when I was living it. I guess because you want to believe them so badly and you want the M to work, etc.
But to answer your question....I just knew when it was enough for me. I decided I was going then just had to get my ducks in a row.
There is tremendous support on SI. Don't be afraid to use us as a sounding board. I found some of the time I just needed someone to say "Man, he is an azz".
Ive since found out that all the suspicions I had prior to catching her in the A were true. There were multiple OM and as I did not have concrete proof she just denied. I also found out from a very reliable source that she lied about most of her life to me as well. She had a rep growing up as a girl who liked to poach her friends BF's. And when she M me she did not stop. And even after I D her she continued to cheat with MM. I guess she gets a rise out of stealing guys from other women. So without getting the truth or any remorse for her actions I know in my heart that D was the right thing for me. But D also took a toll on me emotionally, financially and medically. I was and is a tough road. Yet it was the right decision in my case.
Now with all that said I still believe that people can and do change. Sometimes it takes a tragedy like infidelity and the subsequent pain and suffering to make the WS see the errors of their ways. And I do see a positive in your circumstance. She was willing to write it all down for you to read. Even if that meant losing you. Does that mean she is salvagable as a W ? Not at all in my opinion. While its a good sign she offers the truth to you. The only way you can tell if she is serious about changing herself is through action. And what that means is she accepts full responsibility and is willing to do the very hard work of fixing herself. Again in my opinion she must fix herself before you can even think about R. She must be willing to go to theraphy and find out the root causes of her behaviors. She must own what she has done. She must make every effort possible to right those wrongs. If that means being S from you while she gets her shit together so be it. Its in her actions that you will see her desire to change. Words dont mean a damn thing. Talk is cheap.
Now all of that is a hill of beans if you decide that you can not forgive and move forward yourself. R takes two people with the common goal of fixing whats broken. Its not easy and takes years to achieve it. And you cant blame the A(s)for every little thing that goes wrong in the daily grind. And it certainly does not mean that she now owes you one. You really need to sit your ass down and ask yourself these questions. You do not owe her the gift of R. And if you decide to D there is no shame in that. She knowingly entered this lifestyle with the possibility that her M would end if she went ahead with it. And she did so with that knowledge. Just keep in mind that R can not fall solely on her shoulders. Its a 50/50 proposition. Think long and hard about what you want. And when you make a decision you must throw yourself 100% into it. In the meantime get yourself some help if needed. If that means seeing an IC do so. If that means seeing a Dr and getting on some meds do so. Taking care of yourself needs to be your priority while she fixes herself. I want to welcome you to SI and hope you continue to post, read and ask questions. This site was a godsend to many of us who walked in your shoes. Good luck my friend.
She is remorseful, and says she is willing to do anything to stay with me if I will let her. I haven't been able to verify what she has told me, but it was a lot, even stuff she did in the past where I thought I caught her and there was much more she didn't tell me and never did. I do think she is being honest, but damn I just don't trust her at all, so I have to question if there is something she isn't telling me. I'm also working on exposing the OM, more than 1, and having a REALLY hard time because of how 'discreet' they were. I wont let it consume me, not even close, but I won't give up either.
I've gotten a lot of painful and dirty details, but also a lot of 'I don't know' ' I don't remember' answers, and those drive me crazy sometimes. The most recent, a string of affairs, (13 meetups total, 3 OM) are all within the past 9 months. How could she not remember? She hasnt TT much, but the 1 time she did was bad, really bad. also She has been reading here, but hasn't started posting yet.
I've been working on myself, especially in the 'don't let anyone walk on me ever again' dept. im much better than i was before, but the struggle continues, every day I feel different it seems. Today I am taking her to show me where OM #2 lives. Sometime this week ill write a letter for his wife, and get it to her.
[This message edited by LonelyBH at 5:02 PM, April 14th (Sunday)]
Also.."I don't know" and "I don't remember" translates to: " I know but Im not going to tell you because it will make you mad at me/harder for me/I want to keep my secrets/etc."
She knows. She may not remember if she was wearing jeans or a skirt,or if it was a Monday or a Tuesday,but she sure as shit remembers most of the details.
..that feeling you get in your stomach, when you heart's broken. It's like all the butterflies just died.