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How much is too much?

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LonelyBH posted 3/5/2013 14:20 PM

I am a new BH. Like so many, I have been betrayed and caught her with smaller things(i thought at the time) in the past, but i fell for all the tricks. I've been manipulated. Trickle truthed and gaslighted, and i swept it under the rug, for years, seeking no real insight as to what was happening. Well now that i know what dday is, in a way you could say i had dday number 4 last week. But, because i didnt even seek help, and didnt know what she was. I almost feel like this is dday 1 and im figuring out what REALLY happened. My question isnt simple, but is there an amount of betrayal so high (say 10 OM, or 2 years of sex with 1 OM mixed with more OM)that it would be too much for any hope of Reconciliation, even where the WS is truly remorseful and truly will do anything to prove her worth and remorse to her family? The above situations are only exanples, didnt happen.

[This message edited by LonelyBH at 2:21 PM, March 5th (Tuesday)]

lieshurt posted 3/5/2013 14:40 PM


It really depends on the individuals involved. For some, one was too much and they divorced. For others, they are dealing with 25+ ow and are trying to R. Only you can determine what you are willing to accept.

HereWeGo62 posted 3/5/2013 14:46 PM


So sorry you find yourself here, we are here to help you navigate through this mess as best we can. Others will be along very soon.

My question isnt simple, but is there an amount of betrayal so high (say 10 OM, or 2 years of sex with 1 OM mixed with more OM)that it would be too much for any hope of Reconciliation, even where the WS is truly remorseful and truly will do anything to prove her worth and remorse to her family?

You are right, this is not an easy question. Everybody is diffeent. I have seen some here that kissing another person was enough to end a marriage and others that have reconciled after unspeakable things happened.

A remorseful spouse generally helps, but for some its just a deal breaker. I agree with others on here that D is easier than R, but there are many success stories for R'd marriages.

Do you have what you believe is the truth from your WW?

tushnurse posted 3/5/2013 14:51 PM

Welcome to the club no one ever wants to join. You will find lots of advice, and help here, also lots of support, and no judging.

You are the only who can say what is too much to recover from. If both of you are wanting to R and are committed to it then you can do it. If you want to, and your spouse is not committed, it won't work. The opposite is true as well.

No One says you have to make a decision right away either. Take some time to absorb what happened, digest it. Think about what it will take from her for you to heal from this. Again this can be a very simple list of things or can be as complex as calculus. Only you know what that is.

I found initially it helped me a lot to journal or write down what I was thinking I needed, and what I expected. I was such an emotional sleep deprived wreck that when we talked I just couldn't make my brain work well. This gave me something to reference to.

Please read the healing library. There is a ton of information, and a few "recipies" on how to do this.

Wishing you hugs and strength.

LonelyBH posted 3/5/2013 15:29 PM


[This message edited by LonelyBH at 1:58 AM, March 10th (Sunday)]

MC_Jack posted 3/5/2013 15:46 PM


There is always hope where there is remorse and a willingness to look at oneself.

There are WSs that just slip up, there are others that are cruel, mean, and selfish in their hearts (pathological), and there are those who are completely emotionally screwed up and end up killing all those around them.

It sounds like your WW is of the last category. It will be a lot of work. She may not be able to do it. It's good that she wants to try.

I would just wait to see what happens. I would let her show you how screwed up she is. She will not be able to fix herself if she still has secrets.

[This message edited by MC_Jack at 3:47 PM, March 5th (Tuesday)]

TrustGone posted 3/5/2013 16:07 PM

It is so hard to decide what to do when this happens. Don't make any decisions until you are sure of what you want. It is a hard road to be on and my heart goes out to you. ((HUGS)))

sailorgirl posted 3/5/2013 17:11 PM

WH also thought I would not stay with him if I knew all his darkest secrets. He also felt like a bad person on a deep level and did not think he deserved me. For him, the feeling of worthlessness came from being abused as a child.

I don't know what that letter has in store for you, but whatever it is, someone on this board will have been through something similar. You will not be alone.

Ashland13 posted 3/5/2013 18:44 PM

That's a really hard question, LBH, one that I've asked myself as well. My WH left while in between affairs and online "activities" and I did not know when he abandoned us last year, what was truly happening. When his double-life was revealed, the complexity and length of the deception helped me decide what was starting to be too much. Now he is lying to our daughter because she isn't fully aware of it all and there is so much pain from hearing that it puts me over the emotional edge some days, so there's another part of the too much question.

For me, if it helps, it's been the lies, and the sneaking under my nose, (which I knew about but chose to wait to confront as we do), which continue after d-day and the affair of WH is still going. In my mind, lying and sneaking are part of disrespect and if we are not respected by our spouses or primary partners, what good is it for us, really?

And I'm finally getting to the realization that if our WS's are out seeking other people, their interest in us is not there but we are interested in them and their lives, but what good is it for us and our peace of mind and OUR needs? It's taken me a long, long while to realize that-that now my own needs are basically being ignored by him and they amplified with pregnancy.

When we were together, I put all my energy into my marriage and daughter. I was the proverbial housewife, lived for my famiy and them coming home. Another part that's too much is relative to that, because while I worked so damn hard on making nice times for us all, he worked on sneaking and lying in return.

When I have started to be able to accept the reality of the deception to me, it's helped me work on the question you posed, "how much is too much?"

My neighbor has been divorced three years from a cheating man and says "you know". In your heart one day, you sit down with a thud, whereever on earth you are, and you feel it in your gut, your bones, your heart. You simply know. Without a doubt.

The other day it hit me like an oncoming car that I don't think he's truly coming back, and maybe that's a little bit what she means. Where I had to sit was a huge snowbank, but I did and the cold helped my thinking kind of snap as to what he's really, truly been doing behind my back.

And I will wonder, possibly forever, if it's going to happen again.

Is the pain tolerable another time? The further on we go in time, for me, it's not.

Also, the blatancy of his putting the affair on Facebook and other websites while still married haunt me and leave me feeling mocked and publicly humiliated, so for me, this is too much.

Lastly, my WH is "confessing" to family members, but not ending the affair and not living here, so that's rather clear for me as well.

Quin82 posted 3/5/2013 22:07 PM

So sorry you are going through this. Just curious where you found the letter to a cheater in the healing library.. I'd be curious to see that.

LifeIsBroken posted 3/5/2013 22:32 PM

My point of "enough" was like Ashland 13's.... after months of lies, TT, continued cheating, promises of willingness toward rebuilding our marriage that he couldn't / wouldn't keep.... it hit me like a big thud - that's a great way to describe it - that I had finally had enough. Trust was gone, respect was gone, my heart had been ripped out one too many times and I hit the wall. Which, in a way, was kind of a relief - I knew I didn't have to live like that any longer. I had more respect for myself than to continue living with his downward spiral.

kansas1968 posted 3/6/2013 00:25 AM

Nope. There is never too much with a remorseful spouse. It really boils down to a failure of ethics and boundaries one time. Once that boundary is broken, then who cares what happens after.
My husband had a seven year affair with one woman. 365 days x 7 of betrayal. Sounds like a lot, but the only one that counts is number one. In our process of reconcilliation, he admitted that there were three other women sprinkled in the mix. Just one nighters, or very short encounters. Frankly, the only thing I felt about those, was I was glad he cheated on her. LOL.

So no, there is never a threshold with a remorseful spouse. It is not the quanity, but the quality of her attempts to apologize and make it up to you.

Hugs, hang in there, but don't buy false remorse. K

rastaman posted 3/6/2013 02:09 AM

((lonelyBH)) it's tough to come here and share what's going on and ask these difficult questions. Only you know the answer, as many others have said.

I'll give you an example using myself (which is why I think you are asking). I had always suspected my ex-WS of having an A with co-worker and when she would, ostensibly, joke about what would happen if I was right (of course, just after denying and saying I was crazy) I would say, well, your job would end immediately. When things finally came to light and I, unfortunately, discovered my suspicions were correct all along and thought that it would be a deal-breaker I actually tried to R (after I kicked her out and she stayed with her parents for three weeks). What made the decision for me was that she kept TTing and there was a second DDay. I guess I kinda felt all along that if I didn't see and hear what I wanted, it would be over. The sad truth is, no WS EVER tells the whole truth initially, NEVER. They have kept their secret too long to just give you the benefit, courtesy of the whole truth, so if I had to do it all over again, I would have never put myself through R only to have another DDay. The second DDay was like going through this twice, very painful, and once was enough. You will discover that most of us have gone through more than one DDay.

One other thing that assisted me with my decision was when I told my dad that "I don't think I can do this" meaning R, his response to me was not what I was expecting, he said, "well just move one, divorce her." I wasn't expecting him to say that, but for me D was absolutely the right decision as I found out so much more later and now see her true colors (she is awful) and am so glad I don't have to live with that anymore.

It's very difficult to contemplate D or R, they are both difficult roads. I say go with your gut. Can you picture yourself in a year, what picture looks better? Good luck bro!

jimbo25319 posted 3/6/2013 21:32 PM

Since each of us are different, you are going to get a different answer from everyone.
Only you know when enough is enough.
For me, if my FWW got pregnant by the OM, or if she was not 1000% remorseful, or if there are any further indiscretions from her, then that's when I'll call it a day.

[This message edited by jimbo25319 at 9:33 PM, March 6th (Wednesday)]

toomanyregrets posted 3/7/2013 11:36 AM

I'm so sorry that your here, but I'm glad that you found us.

It might be a wise move to get yourself and your WW tested for STD's. Better safe than sorry.

EvenKeel posted 3/7/2013 11:54 AM

Like OPs said....there is no magical threshold. Varies GREATLY from person to person.

That said, I know that I hung on wayyyy tooo long. Many years of rugsweeping, etc.

I think I would of said "UNCLE" way sooner if I had found SI way sooner. It really helped to have the folks here to validate his BS and help me see that I deserved more.

It is funny what you can justify or "not see" when you are living it. When I tell people some of my M stories now....I can't believe how I didn't see it when I was living it. I guess because you want to believe them so badly and you want the M to work, etc.

But to answer your question....I just knew when it was enough for me. I decided I was going then just had to get my ducks in a row.

There is tremendous support on SI. Don't be afraid to use us as a sounding board. I found some of the time I just needed someone to say "Man, he is an azz".


stronger08 posted 3/7/2013 21:10 PM

Brother I hear you loud and clear. I was in a M that was full of suspicion and doubt. And like you I could not let myself believe that my XWW was capable of such actions. But she was and it broke me down to a shell of a man. I probably could write a book with all the lies and decptions that went on for years. In retrospect I now realize that my XWW lied and cheated on me since the day I met her. And with each infidelity she grew more bold and thus became sloppy with her cover ups. To the point even my dumb ignorant ass could not deny it any longer. I literally caught her and OM having a romantic diner together. And the subsequent fallout was rather bad. At that point she could not deny what was currently going on. We S for a year and she came back with her tail between her legs begging for another chance. I felt I owed it to my kids to give it another shot. With the condition of full accountability and truth from her. I asked all the questions and she gave me what she thought I knew. Stupid me had tipped my hand so it was fairly easy for her TT her way for a while. By the time I attempted R I had found SI and this site educated my ass as to how things work. I installed a key logger on the home PC and within a couple months found out that she had broken NC with the OM. Not physical contact. But contact just the same. I packed my shit and never looked back.

Ive since found out that all the suspicions I had prior to catching her in the A were true. There were multiple OM and as I did not have concrete proof she just denied. I also found out from a very reliable source that she lied about most of her life to me as well. She had a rep growing up as a girl who liked to poach her friends BF's. And when she M me she did not stop. And even after I D her she continued to cheat with MM. I guess she gets a rise out of stealing guys from other women. So without getting the truth or any remorse for her actions I know in my heart that D was the right thing for me. But D also took a toll on me emotionally, financially and medically. I was and is a tough road. Yet it was the right decision in my case.

Now with all that said I still believe that people can and do change. Sometimes it takes a tragedy like infidelity and the subsequent pain and suffering to make the WS see the errors of their ways. And I do see a positive in your circumstance. She was willing to write it all down for you to read. Even if that meant losing you. Does that mean she is salvagable as a W ? Not at all in my opinion. While its a good sign she offers the truth to you. The only way you can tell if she is serious about changing herself is through action. And what that means is she accepts full responsibility and is willing to do the very hard work of fixing herself. Again in my opinion she must fix herself before you can even think about R. She must be willing to go to theraphy and find out the root causes of her behaviors. She must own what she has done. She must make every effort possible to right those wrongs. If that means being S from you while she gets her shit together so be it. Its in her actions that you will see her desire to change. Words dont mean a damn thing. Talk is cheap.

Now all of that is a hill of beans if you decide that you can not forgive and move forward yourself. R takes two people with the common goal of fixing whats broken. Its not easy and takes years to achieve it. And you cant blame the A(s)for every little thing that goes wrong in the daily grind. And it certainly does not mean that she now owes you one. You really need to sit your ass down and ask yourself these questions. You do not owe her the gift of R. And if you decide to D there is no shame in that. She knowingly entered this lifestyle with the possibility that her M would end if she went ahead with it. And she did so with that knowledge. Just keep in mind that R can not fall solely on her shoulders. Its a 50/50 proposition. Think long and hard about what you want. And when you make a decision you must throw yourself 100% into it. In the meantime get yourself some help if needed. If that means seeing an IC do so. If that means seeing a Dr and getting on some meds do so. Taking care of yourself needs to be your priority while she fixes herself. I want to welcome you to SI and hope you continue to post, read and ask questions. This site was a godsend to many of us who walked in your shoes. Good luck my friend.

LonelyBH posted 4/14/2013 17:00 PM

Well I got all the general details(I hope) about a month ago. It was a lot. It was worse than I expected, but not as bad as some things I feared. I let fww come back to the house after about 2 weeks of separation.

She is remorseful, and says she is willing to do anything to stay with me if I will let her. I haven't been able to verify what she has told me, but it was a lot, even stuff she did in the past where I thought I caught her and there was much more she didn't tell me and never did. I do think she is being honest, but damn I just don't trust her at all, so I have to question if there is something she isn't telling me. I'm also working on exposing the OM, more than 1, and having a REALLY hard time because of how 'discreet' they were. I wont let it consume me, not even close, but I won't give up either.

I've gotten a lot of painful and dirty details, but also a lot of 'I don't know' ' I don't remember' answers, and those drive me crazy sometimes. The most recent, a string of affairs, (13 meetups total, 3 OM) are all within the past 9 months. How could she not remember? She hasnt TT much, but the 1 time she did was bad, really bad. also She has been reading here, but hasn't started posting yet.

I've been working on myself, especially in the 'don't let anyone walk on me ever again' dept. im much better than i was before, but the struggle continues, every day I feel different it seems. Today I am taking her to show me where OM #2 lives. Sometime this week ill write a letter for his wife, and get it to her.

[This message edited by LonelyBH at 5:02 PM, April 14th (Sunday)]

LonelyBH posted 4/14/2013 17:09 PM

I should also add FWW is changing. She says she has wanted to for a while. Last physical contact was middle of December, but the last OM stopped contacting her. She kept in touch with others until dday but never met up after that. She has had a terrible childhood, I mean really bad. She doesn't want to be like her mother so she wants to change for herself, whether I stay or not. She has been doing things to show me she want this, and wants to change.

confused615 posted 4/15/2013 11:44 AM

Very gently..your WW is nowhere near being a former wayward wife. She has a shit ton of work to do on herself before she earns the title of "former."

Also.."I don't know" and "I don't remember" translates to: " I know but Im not going to tell you because it will make you mad at me/harder for me/I want to keep my secrets/etc."

She knows. She may not remember if she was wearing jeans or a skirt,or if it was a Monday or a Tuesday,but she sure as shit remembers most of the details.

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