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DD5 was telling me about her recent IC session. She was very excited about the toys she got to play with and explained to me how she put the mummy doll in one house with her and DD2.5 in it and the daddy doll in another house with both girls having turns being in both houses.

She then says: "Mummy, I told her that you shout at me sometimes. Are you angry?".

I said of course I'm not angry - it is the truth. Mummy does shout sometimes. I would never be upset at you for telling the truth.

THEN she says:
"I didn't tell her that daddy yells because he would be very angry".

I told her that it is never wrong to tell the truth even if it makes someone angry. If daddy gets angry about her telling the truth then that is daddy's problem. He needs to learn to not do the thing that gets him into trouble.

During a phone call the other night he told her off for saying something to me and told her to stop lying. I didn't catch what she said but I know she wasn't lying because she immediately got upset and said "I'm not lying!". She does that when she is telling the truth.

She told me last night that he told her she would get him into trouble by telling me these things.

I told her if he does get into trouble for doing something it is because HE did it. Not because SHE tells someone.

I need to discuss this with her IC. I don't know what to do here. I told her she will NEVER get into trouble by me for telling the truth. Ever. I can't assure that from her POS father.

This makes me so mad and sad. Not only is he teaching her to lie, he is teaching her that truth is bad, he is also teaching her that any consequences for his or others' actions are her fault.

My mind immediately goes to horrible places - what if someone does something to her and she won't tell for fear of making them angry,

I don't know if it was the recent phone call that has made her form this view of him or if he pulls this shit all of the time.

I hate it that he is manipulating her. I hate it that his compulsion to protect his false image is so much stronger than his compulsion to protect his child. At the very least I expect that he would try to NOT cause her harm. Surely he has an inkling of how damaging this is.

My feelings here won't help my little girl so I will put them aside and focus on her and us navigating through this bullshit...

...but...

I loathe him. I really do.

You have valid reasons for NOT wanting him to teach her this behavior, and it has nothing to do with HIM. You don't want ANYONE teaching her this behavior... he happens to be the first one to try.

Tell your IC just like you told us.

Keep to YOUR word that she will not get into trouble for telling the truth. You will be surprised how much over the years she will confide in you.

Good job mama.. Your DD will know that you have her best interest at heart, and he has his own interests.

Hugs,

K

Tell the IC everything. My kids also hold back parts of the truth from their counselors because they are afraid of their father. A good counselor can take what you tell them, add in what the kids do/do not say, and arrive at a fairly accurate conclusion.

With time my kids are getting better at telling the whole story. It takes time & practice, though. I've had to spend hours talking with them about good vs. bad secrets, about the importance of honesty, about living truthfully, blah blah blah...

Thank you both.

Kajem, That is exactly what I'm afraid of - this makes her vulnerable to predators.

NG, I know I need to keep having these talks but its difficult because he has her 50% of the time so will counter my efforts and confuse her even more.

She KNOWS he is lying - she knows I am not. She knows lying is bad. But he is teaching her that telling the truth can be bad and that there are consequences for him. I've told her the only consequence of her telling me something he said about me is that he is knows he is doing the wrong thing and he knows she and mummy know it too. He doesn't get hurt about it nor does he lose any toys or anything like that. She seemed to understand that.

I also told her the truth was especially important when talking to this lady because she is here to help her and also to help us do the best job possible in being her Mummy and daddy.

She told me I was doing a good job, bless her.

I'll ask hers and my own IC to help me explain navigate this as I am really afraid of the ramifications both short and long term.

This shit is hard enough on them without adding guilt or shame to telling the damn truth. Unbelievable.

Its weird because I didn't NOT expect this kind of thing but I'm still shocked.

Its weird because I didn't NOT expect this kind of thing but I'm still shocked.

Once you have expectations of how low they can go.. it is still surprising when they go there.

I am so glad your DD has you. Even if he has her 50% of the time, she already knows he is lying and she knows how it feels to be falsely accused by him. That feeling will not change and good for her she is developing her moral compass... and it's looking like he is going to get very little say in it's development.

Go mama.

Hugs,

K

You're doing a great job SBB.

Even at 5, your little one knows you're her rock and her safe, reliable place to fall. These kids of ours figure it out pretty quickly.

I feel your pain and frustration (similar situation here). All we can do is just keep modeling good behaviour and morals to our kids and just be there for them.

Hugs!

My god, I just really, really loathe and detest this fucker.

How incredibly frustrating for you! You are doing all the right things by your child. Can you build a case for emotional abuse limiting his visitation? I know it's difficult to prove in the states but can be done.

He is a horrible, wretched human being. There is no circle of hell low enough for him.

double post

[This message edited by StrongButBroken at 10:30 PM, April 23rd (Tuesday)]

Can you build a case for emotional abuse limiting his visitation?

Unfortunately not - as in the rest of the world she would have to exhibit extreme behaviour before I would have a case. By which time the damage is done.

Parental 'rights' to fuck up their children emotionally are very well protected globally.

My only hope is that my sweet, gentle, sensitive 5 year old continues to stand up to the father that she loves. Whether to his face or within her heart.

I also hope her IC can get through to him - he loathes himself and therefore can't stand being disliked or seen in a negative light so if she calls him on this shit he may stop it just from that aspect alone. His rabid self interest may work in my favour here.

I have also been telling everyone what he is doing in the hope that if they see something they'll say something.

I had hoped for so much better. Here I sit hoping and pleading to the universe for the bare minimum from him as a father - yet he still disappoints.

His only concern about my parenting is that he thinks I am badmouthing him and OWUmpteen by telling my girls I'd rather hear about their day when they mention either of them. "That's nice but I want to hear about YOUR day and what you got up to".

I really do hope he told her IC that. It will highlight exactly where his focus is here.

He can't hurt me directly anymore so this is the next best thing. That is why I loathe him.

I am and will continue to give him *crickets* on this - I don't want him to know how much or how deeply it burns.

My loathing of him is far outweighed by my mamma agony here.

I hate this.

[This message edited by StrongButBroken at 12:27 AM, April 24th (Wednesday)]

Parental 'rights' to fuck up their children emotionally are very well protected globally.

Ah yes! I have discovered this painful truth as well. Lord, I didn't know I was wearing multiple pairs of rose-colored glasses. I thought when I finally SAW what a cheating asshole he was, I thought that was the removing rose-colored glasses moment. Alas, no. I had on another pair and didn't know it, the pair branded as "Laws protect young children from emotional destruction from their parents, especially when that parent has documented emotional & characterological deficits". Stupid me. Stupid, stupid me. Parents have full rights to destroy their children as long as they don't lay a hand on them.

NG, Unfortunately I have never had those rose-coloured glasses having endured years of watching my mum being stalked/harassed by my psycho father for years. I know even if they do hit and threaten to kill you all you get is an AVO. You have to wait until they almost kill you or your children before they protect you in a real way.

I was lucky in that c30 years ago it was very uncommon for a father to get any access to children - psycho or not.

Can I ask in your case is the problem that they don't believe he is doing those things, or is it that they don't believe the actions are damaging or is it that they don't think they are damaging enough to stop access?

[This message edited by StrongButBroken at 1:41 AM, April 24th (Wednesday)]

They know he is doing these things (multiple witnesses and even the children back up my claims). They know my children are being damaged (I know this because of the referrals to additional mental health specialists). The political climate, though, is loathe to stop access. There is some mythical benefit to being around a personality-disordered parent, apparently, even one who is unable to regulate his anger and has obvious mental problems. What that benefit is, I don't know. But somehow my innocent children will be able to cope with Daddy Dearest. Somehow. Maybe from the years of counseling they no doubt have ahead of them? Of course that will be damage-control by then.

Since there's no law against being a complete asshole to your children and teaching them to lie & compartmentalize for self-preservation, it must not be a bad thing and the kids have to be forced to endure it.

Hey, ya think I'm a bit bitter about it?

Don't let this make you bitter NG. My mum was/is and it has stolen more years from her than her marriage ever did.

It is shit. Those we expect to protect or stand up for us do not.

So we stand up for ourrselves and our children. Like all the warriors before us.

I can't even fathom adding sexual depravity to this already overwhelming scenario. I simply cannot.

You are not bitter - you are angry and afraid. Justifiably so. Here's hoping he wrecks himself like my father did with an OD when I was 17. I was reborn free that day. I really was.

(((NG)))