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My WS is going through a lot: guilt, shame and anger being the big three. We talked a lot and she is not ready to ask for forgiveness. In her words, she "deserves" the all the pain considering what I am going through.

Deserve means there is some future punishment forthcoming or she is languishing in under her moral punishment now. Problem is, you can't heal from deserve. I have prayed a lot about this and the only thing I can offer is forgiveness, which I have given her and openly told her. I have not forgiven the Om yet... that will take a bit longer. Not saying I am not angry, mad, sad, in pain, etc; it just means I am not holding the A over her head like the Sword of Damocles. But like the sword, it has two side: one asking for forgiveness and the other accepting forgiveness. She knows I have forgiven her, but she cannot ask for or accept what I have offered.

We are going to our pastor (who is a MC) for our 2nd visit tomorrow. There are no ICs in our area. I asked her to come here, but she said no.

We talked about the A and some specifics. She then took a break to write me an email. I can understand writing an email to express yourself completely and do no consider this an out. I would rather she be able to compose her thoughts and tell me what is going on than just keep them bottled up. Here is a portion of that email:

You misunderstand my inability to speak at the time of discussion. When I am unable to express myself, you go by what my face looks like or what you may want me to feel or think I should be feeling at the time. It isn't how I'm feeling. My lack of speech is me being incapable of communicating the depth of my self hatred. I simply can't find a way to put those feelings into words, and still cannot. Screaming won't help. Breaking something won't help. I don't know.

I don't want to run, but I don't want to be here causing you pain either. It seems every corner has another twist of pain for you I can't calm. How can I compete with that? How can you? Why do you want to stay with someone constantly causing you pain? I don't understand myself anymore than I understand you or this situation. I'm still wanting to take the easy way out and just end my life...

I have told her that Suicide is a permanent solution to temporary problem, no matter how painful that problem may be. I also consider it an act of extreme selfishness, depriving our family of her presence... forever. I am not saying I have not thought about ending my life during all this pain but I am not trapped under its weight either.

So why I am here? I would really like some help from the people on SI. I do mean both side of the A. We can only reconcile if she is whole and alive. There can be no true R with a broken person, anymore than there can be with a ghost.

PS - She has been on Pristiq for depression years. She tried some other med, but it made her have thoughts of suicide. We talked to her doc, and she was put on Pristiq. I fear the situation has blown past her meds. What is worse, if she gets in a bad way and skips/forgets meds it could be like a boulder running downhill.

After she goes to bed tonight I am going to get the bottle and copy her doctors info down. Try to call him in the morning and fill him in on the situation as best I can. Part of me wants to tell her to call, but she has not even seen a doc to checked for STDs yet and we are at D-Day+21 days now.

[This message edited by OneFootForward at 4:45 PM, May 8th (Wednesday)]

Shame and self-hatred are crippling. It sounds like depression is a factor as well. You are exactly right - there can be no R if she is mired in such a negative place.

You said she's won't come here. Is there a chance she would read some of the resources for WS on SI if you printed them out for her?

Just putting this out there...I remember saying things like what your WW is saying to you, and the main reason I did it was to put off taking full responsibility for my actions and the A. I was sorry, I was sad, I didn't want to hurt my BW anymore, but my thoughts at that time were to run and give everything to my BW so that her and the kids would be taken care of. I could stay mired and be the good guy by letting her make the decision to D. What she really wanted though was for me to fight for her.

You're very fresh from d-day, and so is your WW. Don't hold her hand so much. Lay down your expectations, and also let her know that you are still there, but that this is work she needs to do, not you.

Thoughts of suicide and running away are common. You know best how serious to take her words. So please don't dismiss them completely, but many WS's will say they had "thoughts" of ending it all...

my thoughts at that time were to run and give everything to my BW so that her and the kids would be taken care of. I could stay mired and be the good guy by letting her make the decision to D. What she really wanted though was for me to fight for her.

It sounds like you just channeled my WS! I think the shame/guilt is what is killing her.

Yesterday before our visit to the MC she made an appointment with a doc to get a full checkup. She also made an appointment with her neurologist (who gave her the pills). Our MC is suggesting she take this a step beyond a neurologist and see a psychiatrist. While the pill may be masking the issue, they are not giving her any mechanisms to cope or resolve anything.

Not sure that I can help much other than to say that I know exactly what you are going through.

I am little further on than you. I have forgiven m FWH for the ONS and forgiven him for not telling me for so long. I don't think I will ever be in a position to forgive OW.

My FWH feels that he was solely responsible and refuses to blame the OW. He bears all the guilt and shame and self hatred like your FWS. I feel he can't move on until he accepts my forgiveness. Part of that is recognising that the OW was also to be blame and is someone that he should detest for what she did with him, to me and to us.

His guilt is preventing both of us from healing together. His self loathing and thinking little of himself got him into the position in which he lost respect for me and for himself and ended up with OW. I want him to move on.

It is hard, but I think that you and I both need to show them that they are lovable. What they did is in the past, we move on together. It is so hard when they are hating themselves so much.

Thank you for feeling like me. It helps me feel that I am it the one going mad.

My W has Depression too. She is under care for it and things are better when she is managing the condition.

Yes it is hard not to fall into the trap of being her rescuer or KISA (knight in shining armor). I used to do that too. It has taken some time, but it is so much easier not to be responsible for someone else's feelings. It is downright draining.

My W doesn't like the idea of posting here either, so I printed of some things for her to read. It seems to work a little. She also doesn't have to sign up if she just reads the posts.

Honestly it sounds like she needs to treat the big D before she will be able to do anything but focus on herself. My W was the same way. Her IC asked me to hold off on discussing the A often until she was in a better place (I later found out she was having suicidal thoughts and that prompted the IC to ask me to stop).

It was hard to do that, but what choice did I really have ? Things are better and I am finally talking to someone who is listening. I am slowly attaching to our M again. However there is a lot I need to discuss with her and I need to see that she does have remorse with a full heart.

To me she sounds like she is beating herself up a lot. My W said she did that because she figured if I saw her do that I would not feel a need to. The deserving comments sound eerily familiar to me.

I had time to focus on myself and heal on my own a bit. It was a good thing for me to do. I would offer the same thing as advice to you. Your W obviously has some issues that require a Psychiatrist. Make her do that. Demand it. I wish I had pushed my W harder on that.

Like it or not holding the A over her head is going to happen. Unfortunately until she sees the consequences of her actions, makes amends and apologizes repeatedly, you aren't going to move forward either.

One thing I will bring up about deserve and this may be a little harsher than you are ready for right now, but what she "deserves" is a divorce. Anything other than that is a gift and your grace. She needs to be healthy enough to realize and accept that.

((OneFootForward))

Sorry you have to be here, but glad that you found us.

ETA: Spelling and grammar.

[This message edited by numb&dumb at 2:31 PM, May 10th (Friday)]

Don't hold her hand so much. Lay down your expectations, and also let her know that you are still there, but that this is work she needs to do, not you.

This comment is especially important, because you can't get your W to see anything. She's the one who controls her vision.

When I first did some therapy, almost 40 years ago, my therapist said I'd never get better unless I gave up suicide as an option. It made sense, so I made a no suicide contract with her. You can check into a 'no suicide' contract - for example, http://www.suicide.org/no-suicide-contracts.html.

Taking suicide off the table means 1) I'm stuck here - I have to face my problems; 2) I can't use the threat of suicide as a tool in a game (and without ow's threat of suicide, my W might never have had an A); and 3) all the energy spent on preventing suicide could be used elsewhere.

[This message edited by sisoon at 4:24 PM, May 10th (Friday)]

I read your whole posting twice, including the excerpt from your WW's email.

I have to be 100% honest here and tell you, I got a very uncomfortable feeling reading it because it was eerily similar to what my WW wrote me shortly after many DDays (note: my WW used to use the same excuse: She had to use email because she was struggling with the words to say verbally, etc.). My IC, as well as practically every adult I spoke with, said that using email for stuff like that, or texting, is a way for the WS to "hide behind electronics", and not face being an adult in an adult conversation. Well, the eery feeling I got reading your post is due to the fact that after my WW wrote a very similar email, expressed similar feelings, etc., she continued to see her AP and cheat on me (she took it as far underground as she could because she knew I was hot on her trail).

So I caution you to be VERY careful, especially seeing as your DDay is so insanely recent! Check, recheck, and then recheck again! Chances are, you will discover more!

Not trying to scare you at all, but I wish someone would have told me this same thing MONTHS and MONTHS ago! I would have saved myself a LOT of heartache.

I'm advising caution here as well. My H's depression spun out of control once he started the A - wailing, sobbing - being sent home from work because he couldn't get under control. What amazed me was how it all stopped once he finally went NC. Not a single wail since - not one word about ending it all.

Also - after Dday 1 - H talked about his self- loathing- how much he hated himself and always had - but after Dday 2 when he actually ended the A and worked towards being authentic, he told me it was a sham - he wanted me to pity him so I wouldn't be so angry (and it worked! I tried to love him back and treated him with kid-gloves - and he just continued the A)

Be careful is all ... There is no limit to where wayward thinking will allow them to go to protect themselves...