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Is it possible for people to never come out of the fog?

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Shockedman posted 6/1/2013 10:49 AM

Thoughts? How long is too long to wait? After being married for 10 years and together for 17 years, I thought my WW would snap out as soon as the bubble popped. Been 8 days and she is still in DEEP. She only knew her AP for 9 months and the affair was 7 months long (if it is even over. She claims she has had no contact, but I don't believe her)

keptmyword posted 6/1/2013 12:11 PM

Shockedman,

Listen, I have read some of your situation. Right now, in your wife's mind, you are the enemy. You are the one that popped her bullshit fantasy bubble and stands in the way of it. The fantasy is a highly addictive drug to the very weak-minded - like her. She HAS to keep you demonized in her mind to mask the reality that she is doing something to you that she would never want done to her - deep down she knows this.

Look, NO ONE was more deluded into her bullshit fantasy than my STBXWW. If you could see the letters that she wrote this guy you would say "Holy shit, that's fucked up!" She thought that it was the greatest love that could ever possibly exist between two human beings - and during that time she treated me like total shit. She was downright mean and cruel. Romeo and Juliet? Anthony and Cleopatra? They didn't have shit on my WW and her shitbag affair guy.

Until I filed for divorce.

After she found out I filed, her tune changed completely. I got the tearful phone call asking if we could reconcile. At our first mediation we talked privately and she was balling the entire time. She claimed she never wanted a divorce, that she resented the affair guy, that she wanted her family back, and realizes all the damage she has caused, etc.

Filing for divorce is the only action that will deliver a reality that she cannot delude herself away from.

You can always dismiss it if you are inclined to want to reconcile.

I strongly suggest you file for divorce immediately and have her served with the papers.

Abbondad posted 6/1/2013 13:13 PM

Keptmyword (and shockedman),

This is where I am now. I told my wife I want a divorce and am about to see my attorney. She is furious at me. Cold as ice. She actually said, "Fine, you made your bed. I am moving on."

This is after a two year affair (still ongoing) during which I begged, pleaded, and humiliated myself overall. Made plenty of threats to divorce but always backed off after she shed a few tears.

Now that she sees I'm serious, her cake is removed. (I have been 180ing.). I am the devil. I am destroying her and my family.

I do not foresee any bubble bursting through the divorce process. Just more anger. She is in Fogland way too deep for way too long. If she comes out of it before the final papers are signed it will mean she had a brain transplant.

It would be nice, but don't hold your breath.

Rella posted 6/1/2013 13:22 PM

Talking about D should not be an empty threat, but a promise of events to come. If you go this route, be prepared for the possibility of it being welcomed by WS, as their way of starting their new life. He/she may not see the destruction until well after the D is final, and by then you will hopefully be enlightened by a new found life yourself. I know how much this hurts, but don't think that the threat of D will necessarily change the BS's tune.

(((Hugs))),
Rella

[This message edited by Rella at 1:23 PM, June 1st (Saturday)]

1Faith posted 6/1/2013 13:51 PM

Shocked

There is no set timeline on how long to wait. I believe you will know when you know. If she's not showing the remorse YOU need then I think you need to take that as a sign. You can't force her to care. You can't wake her up from e fog. But the 180 can help you gain some control of this surreal sucky situation.

I can feel your broken heart! I know that ache. We all do. I can't express how sorry I am you are going through this, but I can tell you, it will get better. It is so hard to find your happiness again, but you can. It's out there. You just don't know what it looks like yet.

Finding a good therapist is a strong step forward to healing. Sometimes, just the act of reaching out for help empowers you. You began that road when you posted here. You can't just "get over it". You gotta work through it. This is a very safe and compassionate place to be as you work through it all.

Your WH's decision to cheat has nothing to do with you. There is no excuse for infidelity. When I first decided to take back control of my own happiness after DDay, I used this mantra: Hold your head up, be strong, you did nothing wrong!

Writing here is very cathartic. Sometimes just typing your thoughts helps you process the mess. It can bring a little clarity to a completely unclear and unbelievable situation.

Plus, this place is just full of very kind and caring people that totally get it!
Please remember to take care of you. This kind of pain takes a wicked toll on the body and soul.

Keep moving. You are doing great. We are rooting for you.

Shockedman posted 6/1/2013 14:22 PM

Thanks for all the great advice.

1Faith: Your words mean a lot to me. I really appreciate your compassion and caring. I am doing my best to take care, but it has been very hard. Lost 11 pounds already! I had it to lose for sure, but........I guess we are all on the "stress diet"

I am trying to keep busy and take control of my own destiny. I am meeting with an attorney to at least know my rights. I at least feel good about this.

Anyone have any comments on living arrangements? I asked her to move out and she did, but she has only been gone 8 days and has been pressuring me about coming back for short periods to stay because she feels like she is inconveniencing her dad. I said absolutely not. She could come while I am away, but she must sleep elsewhere. For example, she wants to stay in our home on Tues and Wed to pack and hang out with our animals as she prepares for a trip. I said no and she is throwing a tantrum saying "It is half my house too!" I said she could come from 5pm - 10pm both nights and I would leave. Why is that not good enough for her? She can't handle not being in control.

keptmyword posted 6/1/2013 14:28 PM

Abbondad and Shockedman,

Rella is absolutely correct and I should have made the point in my initial post. Don't make divorcing an empty threat.

First off, it should not be a matter of talking about or threatening to divorce. My STBXWW threatened me with divorce just about every single time we spoke after D-day while she was still in the affair. I never responded to the divorce threats and she never filed.

When I filed, I filed with FULL intent on carrying through with it - no matter what. And I am. Any potential for or attempt at reconciliation will come AFTER divorcing and I am no longer in a position for her to hurt me emotionally or any other way.

Telling her you want a divorce is meaningless and empty. It is not until they see that you have committed the ACTION of filing a petition for dissolution of the marriage with a court of law and then her being served via a law enforcement official that becomes stark, fucking, undeniable reality that she can't delude away. The situation she created is now a matter of public record and authorities are involved.

That ACTION sends the message that you are not fucking around anymore and that you are not tolerating her fucking around. It sends the message that you value yourself more than this Jerry Springer bullshit that she has heaped upon you and your children.

It sends the message that her value to you has plummeted and that you TRULY know that you can do better than this shit.

And, she will face the cold, hard reality that deep down she knows you can.

solus sto posted 6/1/2013 14:29 PM

(((Shockedman)))) What an apropos user name. I'm sorry you find yourself needing SI, but glad you found it.

I know the early days seem like an eternity, but you're very, very early in the game. Like at Ground Zero.

The fog may linger for WELL more than days, or even weeks.

And yes, it may be where the WS chooses to live indefinitely. (My husband still happily occupies that fantasyland, and always will; we are 3 years out from the last d-day, and I have not seen remorse. And I have not seen empathy. I never will.)

But at 8 days? My message is LOTS more optimistic: it's NOT unusual for a WS to still be foggy at that time---there's LOT of reason to hope for the best, at this point, if she's gone NC.

You say you don't believe her. If your gut is screaming that contact is ongoing, I'd recommend some clandestine espionage. When you reach 50 substantive posts (by substantive, I mean posts that are not simply things like, "^^^^This! I totally agree!"), you will gain access to a forum called "Investigative Tips." There, you can explore some of the ways to carry this out.

There will be NO fog abatement until NC is established, and quite possibly, for some time after. How long you wait is 100 percent your decision. The popular wisdom is to wait 6-12 months before making big decisions. This may be good advice, in that it conveys an important message: you don't have to make any decisions today, tomorrow, or the next day.

OTOH, many of us know WELL before 6 months elapse that we can't remain in the marriage. Though I don't really dig much of his advice, Dr. Phil is right on the money when he says, "The only thing worse than staying in a marriage that can't be saved for 6 months is staying in a marriage that can't be saved for 6 months and a day." In other words, if your GUT is screaming that this is a dealbreaker, that you don't and won't have a wife who becomes adequately remorseful, transparent, and empathetic, it's HEALTHY to draw your line in the sand.

You don't have to decide today, tomorrow, or the next day.

I hope your wife emerges soon.

Ashland13 posted 6/1/2013 14:45 PM

This is what's happened with Perv. Sometimes, when there is no "fog", there is another term. I am no psychologist or counselor, but an "exit affair" is what Perv has accomplished.

Here is a little theory behing the idea: even though he has to know somewhere in his gut that what he's done is very, very wrong, he didn't want to be married anymore to me and didn't want to tell me...or be alone.

So he searched and searched for women while he was married (and all kinds of other things) and found one with such low standards and esteem that she would accept him as a married person who made all these amazing (not) promises to her and she accepts his lies as well...at least I've not heard they aren't together and don't want to know.

There are people who believe in the fog and who do not, like a mid life crisis and in my experience, this is a term sometimes put on someone who treats their BS in the manner talked about on Shocked's thread.

Yes, Shocked, you could very well be the "evil" one in your WS's life...that's what I am to Perv, a recepticle for the blame of absolutely any wrong in his life...that actually he himself set up and changed.

Divorce in our situation was what he wanted but he didn't have the guts to tell me or actually do it. He can barely say the word now and I am the only one who says "Ex", I noticed.

But he's getting his wish and unloading an entire family, house and possibly child in order to go off in search of some Disney-land type life that he thinks exists.

I think what he wanted was to also be "free" to explore sex with anyone who might, though he tries to say this is otherwise...but the words and actions don't match.

Sorry to be long-winded and talk about my situation instead of yours, but they sound a little similar.

I'm sorry for your frustration.

FWIW, I've heard of people from friends and neighbors who do eventually come to thinking of the people they threw away, but it is often years to realize that they have actually made their problems far worse than simply dealing with their problems internally and trying to change them externally and make faults of others.

There is one man I hear stories of who is a mirror-image of what Perv did and he cries now to his children, parents and anyone who would listen about the horrible mistakes he made when he did this.

His OW has her own share of baggage and "activity" and he's waking up to it a little and seeing that maybe some of the "problems" in the marriage were made bigger than they were and could have been fixed.


I think sometimes a person like Perv or your WS is so mixed up that they don't know where to turn or sometimes how to figure out a way to fix what they've done. So it just gets worse.

Shockedman posted 6/2/2013 09:20 AM

I think WW is coming out now. She called me last night and was for the first time humble. She was not so entitled an indignant. She, of course, in the reality of losing her life and M said, "I really, really love you very much and SO deeply regret all the pain I have caused."

It make it so much harder, for me really. I wish she just kept being a selfish bitch. Then my decisions would be so much easier. 2 days ago, she said the typical "I love you, but I am not in love with you" and that she is "In love" with her AP. She did say that it is possible to love 2 people at the same time and I agree. In college I was in love with my current W after we had been dating for 2 years, but I was away at school and also fell for someone else too. BUT that was then. I was 19. Now I am 36. We have been married for almost 10 years and built a life together. 17 years of being together. We are not college kids anymore. I have a sense of outrage and absolute disgust that a person with this much to lose can be so selfish. I know that the walls are crumbling down around her and she just hit a brick wall.

She just sent me this:
"You don't deserve for what I did to haunt you. You don't deserve this kind of pain. I don't know how long it will take me to even forgive myself for what I've done to you. I beat myself up over minor things....can't imagine what I have in store for how I'm going to even treat myself. Then add how you may treat me...and wondering if you can ever look at me with any kind of love or respect..my heart breaks for all of who I've hurt. I'm living every second in immense pain....know that I'm not okay....I'm not fine....I'm reeling from what I've done to everyone....I am to blame....I am the storm in our lives....I am the perpetrator...I'm the adulterer....I'm the cheat...I'm the untrustworthy piece of shit...I am to blame....I'm in shambles...you didn't deserve this....I have no words to help anything......I am not worth even you considering forgiveness...."

I hate to see her in this state, but she certainly deserves it and it is just the tip of the iceberg. We are only on day 9. Took her this long to just come out of the fog. We got weeks of IC still ahead before we start MC and I am just not sure If I am willing to go through all the pain and agony that she caused in our lives to endure several years of therapy just to get back to point of decency in our lives.

This is the hardest part and I am sure that many of you have been in that boat. How do you decide? How do you justify putting yourself through so much pain and agony when you did not force it upon yourself? Your cheating souse did? I recognize that in order for me to heal individually, I will have to go through a lot anyway on my own journey, but my journey won't be clouded by a women that betrayed me.

[This message edited by Shockedman at 9:20 AM, June 2nd (Sunday)]

LadyQ posted 6/2/2013 10:02 AM

The fog can be everlasting. X still has no clue. It's been about 8 years since I first chose to confront rather than rug-sweep. He continues to blame me, his upbringing, the man in the moon. He comes to get the kids for his weekends and wants to chit-chat like we are old friends. He really just doesn't get it and probably never will because he isn't interested in doing the hard soul-searching work to figure out his "whys".

ButterflyGirl posted 6/2/2013 10:47 AM

I have no words to help anything......I am not worth even you considering forgiveness..

Honestly, her whole email sounded like a big pity party for herself, only focusing on her feelings and not about yours..

And in the quote above, it sounds like she wants to give up, but doesn't have the guts to say it. Almost like she's asking you to give up on her..

I don't like these twisted games, because it puts it on you to say something like, "Yes you can honey, we can make it, we can get help, let's do this.." That's totally backwards. It should be her begging and pleading and promising to do everything in her power to fix her mistakes..

My initial thought when I read the title of this thread was that yes, it's possible for people to never come out of the fog. And that includes the betrayed spouse as well as the wayward spouse. Not saying this applies to your situation, but I think a lot of betrayed people continually think with their heart instead of their head and don't face the reality of the situation..

I have come to learn that quite a few relatives in my family tree just "looked the other way" till death did them part..

heforgotme posted 6/2/2013 11:05 AM

Been 8 days and she is still in DEEP.

That's not very long, so there might still be hope. Just don't try to baby her out of it. Won't work and will hurt you.

WH came out in about 48 hours. But if she thought she was in luuurve, it may take a lot longer. But the process won't even start until NC is maintained.

Good luck.

jjct posted 6/2/2013 11:05 AM

Shocked, lemme guess:
Did you tell her you are meeting with a L?
If so, the recent wallowing is a result of her hearing the approaching toot toot of the reality train - not remorse.

True remorse doesn't flip flop, going from ILYBINILWY one day to such texts the next.
True remorse is consistent, and it's not only words.

She just knows which buttons of yours to push, seeing's how she installed them.
It's our fog - thinking, hoping! the crumbs of regret we receive taste like true remorse.

Happydays posted 6/2/2013 12:07 PM

It's our fog - thinking, hoping! the crumbs of regret we receive taste like true remorse.

Right on!

My exW said the exact same things. All that I wanted to hear. But her actions were different. She was still in contact with OM. Roaming around with him. That is when I decided to quit the M.

Actions not words.

tfkeel posted 6/2/2013 12:23 PM

True remorse doesn't flip flop, going from ILYBINILWY one day to such texts the next.

Right.

wondering if you can ever look at me with any kind of love or respect.

Now, there's the real. Me, me, me, me, me, me. She's done it, but doesn't want to own it, or the just recompense of reward resulting from it. She's trying to "buy" your forgiveness at a CHEAP price.


TRUE remorse takes YEARS to develop, in most people. When they fully (FULLY) come to grips with how THEY have destroyed their own, and their family's lives, and how there is NO ONE TO BLAME but THEMSELVES for having done it.

Personally, I don't buy into the "fog" idea. Adulterers CHOOSE to be adulterers. Nobody holds a gun to their heads.

Housefulloflove posted 6/2/2013 12:24 PM

For some it isn't a fog, it's their personality/disordered brain that is the problem. There is no "coming out" of that, just the sad realization of who they were in the first place.

BrokenBill posted 6/14/2013 05:13 AM

It's not easy to decide (we are in that same boat). Also it's so early for you to make that choice. Know that the damage is DONE and the pain is there to be dealt with (I assume she's NC). I have chosen to go through that pain with my wife regardless of whether or not we divorce in the end (I feel that will become clear on it's own). There is a lot to understand about yourself as well as about her, it doesn't work to always hold that "victim card".

I see some value just in the fact that she wrote that, despite that it's mostly me me me! Infidelity is an act of selfishness and she is clearly that.

If she can follow that with some actions and further more with concern for you then i'd say take your time and let it unfold. Be there for her if you can, you will soon know if it's crumbs to a trap or the start of a deeper look at herself.

Tread with caution.

Mack9512 posted 6/14/2013 06:39 AM

Shocked,

Please take a look at what she sent you. A real close look. There are way to many "I"s in that email. It is still all about her. Once she sends you something that talks more about YOU then you might be able to consider "thinking" about gifting her with R. Actions not words.

Mack

k9lover1 posted 6/14/2013 07:14 AM

IMHO I think she is desperately trying. But it seems that she's not picking the right words.

How about some credit for at least making an attempt to be sorry for what she's done?

Shocked - are you sure what you want? Sometimes I get the feeling that you don't want to R with her because of what she did. It can't be erased - it's there for eternity. I have the sense that you were questioning your M prior to the affair - the differing view on children, etc.

If you don't want to R, be clear about it and file.

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