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For much of our lives, Perv and my mother have had something of a competition going on. They are both extremely narcissistic and it is exhausting.

It's picked up again and going full force because NG (Narcissitic Grandma) is asking for DD to visit again-on her own, for a very lengthy stay that will use up much of DD's summer.

There are many factors why Perv and I actually both don't want it to happen, but the simple truth is that it's too long. I wrote very kindly, edited many times and made sure to always ask, never state, as we do with NPD, but to ask them to modify the plan so it's not so long. Never said outright no and made it like I needed her help. It was really hard to write and took the day's energy.

Well, NG wrote once that "she understood", but today I get an electronic rant about Perv, about money, about DD and why they don't get time with her...duh...they moved 2000 miles away from DD!

She also went on to ask if I am demanding of L all that Perv "owes" and if anyone has asked DD her opinion...DD's not even puberty age!

So I am trying to protect myself from this other bully in my life who is my own mother and who has always bullied me and I am writing to ask any of your advice on how to reply.

My instinct is self-protection and to not write for a little while?, like a few days. She is also pushing me for phone calls but at the same time pushes me away, because she is vindictive and "after" Perv but not in a way that's helpful, do you KWIM? It's all strong, the anger, harsh and out for blood, where I seek indifference, peace, silence.

Thank you for any ideas or perspectives. I cannot stand when she does this and what IC says is to stand up to her...but that makes world war 4,5,6 and so on. With NPD people, that's not quite the right boots to put on, at least right away, you know?

Ashland, even though I don't have to deal with an NPD, there is a thread in the ICR forum that deals with them. It's technically for those dealing with an NPD spouse but I'm sure you can get some helpful advice for dealing with NPDs in general.

(Ashland 13) First Hugs to you. However I don't have much advice but want you to know I hear you. I also had a very what I believe to be NPD mother also. So I understand how you have to be careful about how you respond to them. Not for them to get their way, but you to be able to protect yourself from them.

but that makes world war 4,5,6 and so on. With NPD people, that's not quite the right boots to put on, at least right away, you know?

You are right about this, that is exactly what it would amount to. I don't understand how your IC would think that you should stand up for yourself and not understand that is hard to do with a NPD who would be revengeful.

I usually would pull back my contact with my mother when she started with me. They like having someone to push around and have no problems with conflict. So when I would back away and keep distance it took that power away from her.

What kind of vengance can your mother wreak on you? What power does she still hold over you--other than guilt? I'm way too old for guilt.

I can understand how a NPD X can make you life miserable when you share kids, but a toxic mother? I'd cut the cord.

[This message edited by Sad in AZ at 6:23 PM, June 7th (Friday)]

Thank you.

Yes, pulling away is the instinct that comes from her bullying. She is full-force right now and I understand the roots of what she wants-I think-and some of it may be anxious about the situation we have with Perv. But in a recent vacation I had with her, she brought me to tears in similar behavior patterns.

IC is not easy to understand, true. She is saying on the one hand to stand up for myself, but in a more asking than telling way, so to NPD person it also looks like there's no backbone here. It goes around and around and now the pair of them are trying to over-please DD.

I suspect they have common ground, and a pant load of guilt for each moving away from DD? They display the same bullying patterns for visiting, both Perv and NG and don't seem to realize it's not rules just made by me anymore.

Yet neither really listens or is present for DD's true needs or consistent in her life, the life of the very girl that they fight over. I don't think Perv even really knows it, just is wanting the same things as NG, if that's not strange-sounding. It's not meant to stand up for him in anyway, as to say that it's DD's time they are after and shouldn't they be where she lives and not forcing what we cannot do?

I'm sorry if this is all mixed up. It's the crazy making done by both of them and is emotionally and physically exhausting.

Yes, I spend time on the NPD thread reading and writing, thank you. I didn't know if more people would see my post in "General?"

Maybe a moderator will ask me to move the post or give advice as to putting it on at all.

This woman has always made me feel small. Growing up I was clearly not the favorite-I am not narcissistic but siblings are and crave the attention she does. I have boundaries and needs them and that does not make someone else happy.

Thank you again.

Hi Sad,

My mother's vengeance is at Perv but she does her Vent and rant at me.

She is questioning my choice of lawyers now and trying to say that he shouldn't get time with DD and all this stuff. Sigh.

Yes, the guilt works, for I feel it now but am going to work at it not working. I feel too old for it too and far away. I also have anger at her, for she's a BS and also divorced someone so should have some clue of the pressure.

My mother is a full blown NPD, I understand your plight.

You cannot change an NPD. Either you live with their disordered thinking or you cut them from your life. They will not change, they don't actually think there is anything 'wrong' with them - you are the problem.

I have not spoken to my own mom for 4 1/2 years.

Actually, standing up to a NPD is the only way to deal with them. You tell them what's going to happen, you don't ask them to make things work for you. The more you act nice the more they'll crush you like a bug. You're going to be destroyed, anyway, so go ahead & let WWIII, WWIV and WWV happen. Go for it. You'll get to a point where it starts to be fun.

What brokenblackbird said is right on. My mother is also full blown NPD and I didn't speak to her for over a year and we now have very limited contact. It is with boundaries that I have set. She can either choose to live within that or not.

At some point you can choose how you want your life to look, an NPD will dictate to you for as long as you allow.

I do have a good book recommend for daughters of NPD's if you want it.

Ash, you know that your mom's request is not reasonable. The vast majority of rational people would look at her getting upset over your refusal and say: "Gma is batshit crazy."

I've read your posts and I know that you have a pretty good understanding of NPD people and how their minds work.

You deal with NPD people by holding hard and fast to your boundaries. You, as DD's mom, decide what is a reasonable 'visit', and inform your mom of which dates your DD is available and NPD mom can choose from those.

NPD's know that us 'normal' people want to avoid *wars*. That's how they retain power. But a true *war* cannot happen without 2 involved parties.

You asked for advice about how to deal with her. Tell your mom "thank you for your concern. I'm dealing with the Perv situation. I've checked the calendar and xyz dates are free for DD to visit you. Which date works best?"

Perv is not her business. Money is not her business. She won't understand that, but that doesn't change the fact that it ISN'T her business.

With NPD's.....it's boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. Have them. Stick to them. Resist all the attacks. If the NPD doesn't back the fuck off and start respecting the boundaries (even if they pout while doing it), then you seriously need to consider cutting contact.

Ashland,
Don't let her intimidate you.

You need to install some FIRM boudaries. And then enforce them. You need to be strong because she will take advantage of the slightest sign of weakness.

When she starts to bully or threat or tell you how she thinks things need to be, simply say, "That has already been decided. I am hanging up now, Mom. Bye."

Then hang up.

My NPD mom has been dead for 4 years this week. I still mourn the idea that she didnt really love me.

I think the very first thing you, as her daughter, need to do is to accept the fact that she is never going to be the supportive mother figure you need. We have an idea of what a mother should be. Supportive, understanding, respectful. We should be able to tell her our fears and she will help us navigate this hell. We should be able to trust her not to exploit our problems for her own gain. Our best interest should be primary in her mind as she lifts us up in her love. The NPD mother cannot be that safe place to land. I believe that once you accept that it will be easier to stand up for yourself. It takes the pretzel making away because you aren't constantly trying to treat her in such a way as to get that support from her. You realize that she is who she is and she will cause distress either way. Whether you are stressing for days before about communicating with her or you stress for days after due to world war whatever.

Find your center line. "mom, I KNOW you hate perv but I'm tired of you beating me over the head with it." perhaps in her twisted mind her hatred for perv is her way of being supportive of you. She also needs to know that her negativity towards her granddaughter's father is not to be conveyed to her granddaughter.

My mom felt like my daughter should be her daughter because, after all, she brought me into the world so my life should just be an extension of hers. It is crazy making and I wish you all the best with it.