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Newest Member: Tigress5455 (45753)

User Topic: just random thoughts, BS welcome
stilllovinghim
♀ 29971
Member # 29971
Default  Posted: 11:46 PM, June 11th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So, I was reading another thread in JFO and I can't respond to THAT particular thread so I'm posting here...please bear with me...

So I see that a common question among BS's is, "Why did my WS think down on themselves? He/She was bright, attractive, fun to be around, etc and I told him/her this all the time. Why the need for external validation? Why did he/she think we, the BS, should be taken down a notch?"

I'm going to try and answer this the best I can before I loose my train of thought.

I was told prior to my A by my H and my dad and my grandmother, people who genuinely loved me for me, that I was smart, pretty, funny, etc. This was validation from people who should matter, right? So it doesn't make sense to seek it from a stranger, right? Wrong.

I was convinced that my H and dad and grandmother who told me these things told me because they didn't really know me. That they didn't see me fuck up at work. They didn't see how stupid I really was. That of course they think I'm pretty because it's a reflection of them in some way and because they weren't around me 24/7 they only saw the good in me.

I didn't know exactly WHAT was wrong on my inside, just that there was something wrong inside of me and sooner or later I would be exposed as a fraud. I felt like I was fooling everyone. Not in a "oh ha ha! I've got you allll fooled mmuuahahaahaa!!" way but...I really don't know how to describe it because even I don't understand it and when I try to my mind just draws a blank.
When a BS says they don't understand why their WS can't take a compliment, its because we truly don't believe it and we can't believe it. My dad would compliment me and I'd smile but on the inside would tell myself it wasn't true. It just wasn't.

So I think that seeking external validation from a stranger or coworker etc is when it "matters" to the WS BECAUSE of the simple fact that this person doesn't know you as well as your SO or family so if this "stranger" thinks your great, then shit, you must be, right?

This brings me to my last point. The WS feeling their BS should be knocked down a few pegs or that the BS has had just a cherry of a life (when in reality the BS has had their own personal struggles). The WS is jealous of the BS. Plain and simple. The WS is so wrapped up in their own issues and pain that when they see their BS all happy they could just spit nails because the WS isn't happy. The WS is responsible for their own happiness but they either don't know how to do that or don't care.

I hope this post makes sense and I know its all over the place and I'm sure I'm leaving some stuff out so WS's please feel free to chime in as well as BS's


“You have a choice. Live or die.Every breath is a choice. Every minute is a choice. Every time you don't throw yourself down the stairs, that's a choice. Every time you don't crash your car, you re-enlist.”
― Chuck Palahniuk, Survivor

Posts: 1942 | Registered: Oct 2010
Later
♂ 39375
Member # 39375
Default  Posted: 12:16 AM, June 12th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks for posting, and doing the work.

Some of he problems I struggle with when considering the "he said I was smart" rationale:

1. Is it BS? (not aimed at you SLH -- just in general I think all BS have that question with their spouse, at least initially).

It's kinda like if the Dr. ordered no fried foods and the patient chose to eat them anyway because the wait staff is so nice. B.S., you just wanted fried green tomatoes.

2. So, you don't believe me, but you believe this guy? The guy who is cheating on his family, has a history of that and should be an obvious con?

3. Okay, suppose the need for validation really was a reason for the A. How does that make me feel more comfortable going forward? I am not exactly in the mood for haanding out compliments.

Again, nothing personal -- just taking the opportunity to say how I feel. Thanks again for opening the discussion.

As for the point you were making (as oppossed to my rant) I can see what you are saying.

[This message edited by Later at 12:21 AM, June 12th (Wednesday)]


Posts: 385 | Registered: May 2013
tired girl
♀ 28053
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 12:57 AM, June 12th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Later,

I see the need for validation as being the thing that allows the WS to step over those boundaries so easily. From there, they often just keep going.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
stilllovinghim
♀ 29971
Member # 29971
Default  Posted: 1:10 AM, June 12th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Later,
No offense taken and I didn't read your response as a rant, glad you understood what I was struggling to say.

To answer your questions in sequencial order:

1: Bottom line, we (the WS) or more specifically, I, did it because I could. That sounds like a bratty thing to say, but weren't the actions and reasons juvenile? The patient ate the fried food because he could and because he wanted to.

2:Right because this is someone *different* telling you this stuff so it matters because it's the same stuff being said by someone else...

3:Don't compliment if you don't feel you should. Your SO needs to learn to love herself, which is hard. Your SO needs to learn how to make herself happy. That helps the WS to actually be able to fully accept a compliment from their BS later on and know it's true BECAUSE it is because THEY feel the same way about themselves. "You're right, I do look good today, thanks for noticing!" Etc.

Hoped some of that helped.


“You have a choice. Live or die.Every breath is a choice. Every minute is a choice. Every time you don't throw yourself down the stairs, that's a choice. Every time you don't crash your car, you re-enlist.”
― Chuck Palahniuk, Survivor

Posts: 1942 | Registered: Oct 2010
badchoice
♂ 35566
Member # 35566
Default  Posted: 1:33 AM, June 12th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

For me the need for validation was a very small part of my fuckupedness. It was, as TG said a reason to cross boundaries.

In regards to #2, as I get honest with myself, I didn't believe anyone's compliments.

Looking back I got lots of validation, work, volunteer work, my wife, etc, but it just wasn't enough to fill the void within. So no, I didn't believe my AP above my BW. I just didn't believe anyone.

And #3, I don't think the need for external validation is the reason for the A, at least in my opinion. Everyone likes validation, but not everyone has an A. It is a sign of deeper self esteem issues, and that is what leads to the slippery slope.


Me: fWH/BH 46

Separated transitioning to D


Posts: 730 | Registered: May 2012 | From: L.A.
Pudding
♀ 37168
Member # 37168
Default  Posted: 2:03 AM, June 12th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

BS here.

Thank you for this SLH. This does make sense and is really helpful for me. My FWH has said similar things which I have not really understood. The way you have expressed it has helped me to understand it better. Thank you.


Posts: 266 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: UK
Later
♂ 39375
Member # 39375
Default  Posted: 2:45 AM, June 12th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I see the need for validation as being the thing that allows the WS to step over those boundaries so easily. From there, they often just keep going.

Don't compliment if you don't feel you should. Your SO needs to learn to love herself, which is hard. Your SO needs to learn how to make herself happy. That helps the WS to actually be able to fully accept a compliment from their BS later on and know it's true BECAUSE it is because THEY feel the same way about themselves. "You're right, I do look good today, thanks for noticing!" Etc.

Thanks. I think this highlights the need for the WS to do some work on his/her self. Otherwise, the original underlying issues remain -- with newly added guilt and shame. Not to mention the BS's resentment, anger, moodiness, triggers, etc make it very difficult for the BS to be the source of that apparent extraordinary need for validation.


Posts: 385 | Registered: May 2013
still-living
♂ 30434
Member # 30434
Default  Posted: 6:24 AM, June 12th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

With my wife, I would categorize what you are saying as "justifying". My wife needed to justify her affair so she wouldn't be the bad person. It had to be others that were "causing" the grief she was experiencing. Ultimately my wife convinced herself that her problems were caused by me. This was after moving three times to where she wanted to live, purchasing three new gingerbread houses, kids, pool, cars, etc. There was nobody left to blame. When the target became me, I could not defeat her negative thoughts. Ultimately she looked elsewhere for happiness and, of course, still didn't find it. Her problems started far before she began to justify an affair affair. Her needs could not be satisfied by anybody for long.

[This message edited by still-living at 6:28 AM, June 12th (Wednesday)]


BH(me)47
WW 47 FOO Issues
DDay 11/09 Coworker
High School Sweethearts
Married 06/91
8 months TT
Sons 19 and 14
Recovery is constructing a pyramid of inference from which to see clearer.
The process involves using the reflexive loop.

Posts: 798 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Ches
itainteasy
♀ 31094
Member # 31094
Default  Posted: 7:25 AM, June 12th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You made sense to me, SLH.

Sometimes when my fiance tells me he thinks I'm beautiful, or even if my mom or dad says it I think in my head "I'm disgusting, you are only saying that because you love me and you have to, not because it's true."

I have a very negative self image.

So, if someone else, a stranger or an aquaintance compliments my appearance, sense of humor, etc...I do get that "wow, this person doesn't even know me so it must be true" feeling/reaction.


I don't think I have EVER realized this about myself.

This is something I am going to bring up in IC next week.


Posts: 3425 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: NWPA
20WrongsVs1
♀ 39000
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 7:43 AM, June 12th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

External validation was, I told myself, what I wanted from an A. Because yeah, compliments from men who want into my panties--those are genuine!

Ultimately my wife convinced herself that her problems were caused by me.

Don't we all? As discussed in the BM thread, we all accused you of being distant. If BH was distant, it was probably because I was always "busy" or distracted. I created the distance, and then held it against him.

Her problems started far before she began to justify an affair

How do we all get the same delusional idea that an A is a great way to solve those problems?

I would categorize what you are saying as "justifying"

I can't speak for SLH, but how does one explain how one felt during/before an A, without appearing to justify? I'm <2 months out, and my apologies land on BH like justifications and excuses. Not my intent, but I accept & trust his perspective more than mine at this point. All I can do is admit that I'm a mess, and get help.


fWW: 42
BH: 52
DDay: April 21, 2013
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1252 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
Trying33
♀ 38815
Member # 38815
Default  Posted: 7:46 AM, June 12th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So I think that seeking external validation from a stranger or coworker etc is when it "matters" to the WS BECAUSE of the simple fact that this person doesn't know you as well as your SO or family so if this "stranger" thinks your great, then shit, you must be, right?

Coupled with the fact that this person makes such a huge effort to spend time with you. Prioritises time to be with you. Wants to know every little details about you.

It's intoxicating and feeds into the lack of self-esteem and neediness.

Broken people attract broken people.

My BH was hurting as much as me in the M. Was frustrated as much as me. Was probably as lonely as me but he didn't have an A.

Two people can be in the same shitty marriage but only 1 may take the A avenue. It's not the BS or the marriage that "causes" or leads to the A. It's the way the WS chooses to/decides to handle that shitty marriage via infidelity.


Posts: 362 | Registered: Mar 2013
floridaredman
♂ 15122
Member # 15122
Default  Posted: 8:26 AM, June 12th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I agree with what SLHim says about this and it just shows what crazy thinking that waywards can have.
Who should know you more than the people who live with us right?
Our BS, parents and other family know about us more than we realize. They know our bad habits, they know what we like to eat and maybe even the rituals we do before we do a certain thing.
However our thinking is that they are SUPPOSE to say good things about us. They can overlook our faults because they are so close to us.
Now the AP really knows nothing about us except what we tell them. They are not with us 24/7. They don't smell the tartness of our fartness. They don't toil with us about bills or child rearing or in-laws..yet our thinking is they understand us more because they "validate" the negative and positive things brought to them by us.
In the grand scheme of things they are our king/queen of validation because we allow them to be, it is how we perceive them to be. An escape, ego boost, revenge, KISA or Florence Nightengale..the AP ultimately becomes what we make them and they really don't know us as well as our family does.

[This message edited by floridaredman at 8:27 AM, June 12th (Wednesday)]


The simplest thing can be the hardest thing to do....FRM

Posts: 2540 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Florida
JustWow
♀ 19636
Member # 19636
Default  Posted: 8:45 AM, June 12th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My FWH was one of the most emotionally intimacy-avoidant people I've known. The mask he projected was an importsnt defense mechanism to him, he believed.

But, since he never was willing to really expose who he really was, he was always going to believe "if they really knew me, they wouldn't think I was so great".

I think he also had so much shame and importance attached to his flaws, internally, that he was sure his flaws trumped any positive things people genuinely saw.

Sad cycle of seeking external validation, but it didn't really validate anything other than his mask was fooling people properly.

Turns out his "flaws" are no where as enormous as he fathomed them to be, he is no more or no less huan than anyone else, and he can change most anything he wants to about himself if he summons up the will to do it and follows through with the work consistently. I say "most anything", because he probably can't manage the pro=baseball player change at this age


BW - Reconciling

edited for typos (I always have to!)


Posts: 3643 | Registered: May 2008 | From: Midwest
KBeguile
♂ 38348
Member # 38348
Default  Posted: 8:54 AM, June 12th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Holy cow. This is making so much sense to me. Please, by all means, continue. I'm absorbing all of this like a towel ...


Me: fWS 32
Her: BS 35 (HeartInADustpan)
DS: 4yo
M: 7 years
DDays: 2012/11/14, 2013/02/05, 2013/03/09
-
"Everything that happens now is happening 'now.'"
"What happened to 'then'?"
"We passed 'then.'"

Posts: 802 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: St. Louis
SandAway
♀ 37775
Member # 37775
Default  Posted: 8:57 AM, June 12th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


its because we truly don't believe it and we can't believe it.

I understand your thought process here SLH. I felt this way also - my BH would compliment me, but I told myself it is what he is suppose to do. Yet I would believe complete strangers when they told me I was pretty - it's such a f'ed up thought process.

During my A, this screwed up way of thinking never crossed my mind. As FRM said "the AP ultimately becomes what we make them".


fWW
BH Tred
M 16yrs
DDay Nov. 2011

Guns don't kill people; Affairs kill people


Posts: 439 | Registered: Dec 2012
Faithful w/Love
♀ 33128
Member # 33128
Default  Posted: 9:05 AM, June 12th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I see how this is so true. I always and still do praise my wh and tell him how proud of him I am, he is a great father, and how wonderful he is to our grandson. That he is handsome or looks good. And it sorta is like " Yeah, I know" but if someone else were to say that to him no matter a male or female in family or a stranger it boost is ego but coming from me it is not so important.

But, on the other hand he will look in the mirror and say "How does this look? Its good right? Or my haircut is off the chain isn't it? Yeah, I look good"? What is that? If he is so convinent in himself why would he need others valadation?

Am I missing something here?


BS(ME)40 WH(HIM)38
DD 20 and DS 15
Separated Aug 2012
Moved back home Oct 31 2013
Separated again June 2014. Heading toward divorce.
False R. Still Lying.

"You never know how strong you are until being strong is all you have left"


Posts: 2889 | Registered: Aug 2011
SisterMilkshake
♀ 30024
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 9:21 AM, June 12th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks for sharing your random thoughts, slhim. It really sheds some light on something my FWH did to me, and I am thinking it was whilst he was in the midst of his affair.

He would look at me with what seemed to me to be despise and say "You really think you are something, don't you?"

Yeah, I kind of like myself. No, I don't feel I am perfect by a long shot. But, I have worked on myself, I know who I am, I stand up for what I believe in and I kind of like myself. I do the best I can and I am proud of that.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9952 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
floridaredman
♂ 15122
Member # 15122
Default  Posted: 9:25 AM, June 12th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

But, on the other hand he will look in the mirror and say "How does this look? Its good right? Or my haircut is off the chain isn't it? Yeah, I look good"? What is that? If he is so convinent in himself why would he need others valadation?

Am I missing something here?

I see him saying this as still a need for validation. Because for him to say "Yeah I look good" He has to be questioning himself within whether he does or not. He is fishing for compliments. When he asks or makes a statement he is looking for affirmation from you or whomever .

Been there done that.


The simplest thing can be the hardest thing to do....FRM

Posts: 2540 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Florida
Kelany
♀ 34755
Member # 34755
Default  Posted: 9:27 AM, June 12th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I've often wondered why my support and compliments weren't enough. Why he could never believe me.

It hurt me so so deeply when in his fog he told me that his AP's were jealous of me because he was "big". I asked why, they were having sex with you more than I was. He told me it made him feel good. It crushed me. Still does. Their compliments meant more.

I still don't know if what I tell him validates him. I know when he compliments me it doesn't feel the same anymore. Do WS mean it after an A when they compliment their BS? I mean, really mean it? Are we ever compared to the AP in your mind?


BS - Me
SA/FWH Him
DDay 1 - Jul 11
DDay 2 - Jul 12
R Dec 12

Former 80s Icon wishful thinking


Posts: 2031 | Registered: Feb 2012
hardlessons
♂ 35025
Member # 35025
Default  Posted: 10:02 AM, June 12th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

SB, for me no, no comparison. My A had nothing to do with AP or BW, it had everything to do with me. Validation whether it is from our BS or from AP goes to the same place for anyone with that issue: a black hole that cannot be filled. If we need that validation we will keep going where we know we will get it. In marriage you have a ton of other shit to deal with, life etc. in an A you are just feeding dysfunction. So, while it may seem like it meant more, it didn't. All it means is that we are FU*&#d up people who need to learn to be comfortable in our own skin, validate ourselves, self sooth and perceive things honestly and then act honestly. Hope that helps.


Me WH
Wife Tired Girl
3 adult sons
"a wayward...annnnd just a tad betrayed."

Posts: 880 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: Arizona
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