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canteat posted 6/25/2013 01:59 AM

WH and I just got into a huge fight over the phone tonight. he is out of town and has been since before Dday so we have not talked face to face about any of this. i called him while he was away on business and told him i knew everything-we have since had short conversations but no real talks. that may not have been the best way for me to handle it but when i found out i called him immediatly. i didnt take time to think that there might have been a better way...(like an ambush when he got home. sorry, vindicitve me coming out to say hi.)

He will be home weds. he is trying to get a flight tomorrow if he can. He got VERY mad at me tonight and told me that he thinks i'm crazy. I am-but in a normal reaction to this situation kinda crazy. He lashed out at me and blames me for pushing him to this. the A was because he was searching for love i wasn't giving him. I told him i was in a stale and passionless M too and I didn't cheat.

He is pissed that i went through his phone and computer. He is pissed that his attempts at being honest since Dday have not been received well. he has done some things right but i don't think he understands how much effort he is going ot have to put in. a few bits of honesty are almost meaningless at this point. we haven't had full disclosure yet because we haven't been able to talk for that long a time so we both agreed to postpone that until we are face to face.

Just a few days ago he was saying how he can't believe he hurt me and that it was totally his fault.

I am sure that he is going through a wide range of emotions just like I am but this makes me so confused. Do all WS go though this? is it just their way of trying to cope and only being able to "absorb" as much as they can at a time? Or does he really feel this way. I just wish I knew what to believe.

He still wants to talk on weds face to face but now he is pissed and said if i am not there on weds that he will never speak to me again. really?? he is going to threaten me with that shit??

I do want to talk to him face to face because we havent done that yet-but at the same time i kinda wanna not be there. kinda of a FU to him. I don't want my anger and rage to get in the way of us geting to some actual diaolgue. and i don't want to play games. we haven't really talked about any of this. I know he doesn't understand how i feel and right now i think he is closed off to hearing it. I don't think he can handle admitting his actions are the real cause of this to himself yet.

and i am pissed off. and i don't want to appear weak. and i don't want to miss an opportunity to talk about the pressing issues that need to be discussed now as opposed to this other crap. so what do i do? I don't know how to procede. I don't know how to talk to him and I don't know what to talk about. How do you begin? what is the most important things to talk about first? does it make a difference? I have a list of things that i want to talk about broken down as follows:
things i need to know
things i need him to know
things i need him to do
things i am willing/want to do
deal breakers

Do we just decide if we want to try and R and then go to MC and work this all out there? Or do we have to hash some of this out first to see if we even wanna try to R??? I am so lost and confused. If I listen to my heart I know I want to try to R. not because i am needy and am afraid of life without him, but because i love him. even after this, i love him. I want to work to make our M better than it ever was. I consider this a wake up call. One last shot. I understand why he ended up in an A maybe better than he does and i know it is something that i can learn to forgive-IF HE DOES WHAT HE NEEDS TO DO to work on the M. I know we don't need to decide right now-but I don't even know how to start.

Pudding posted 6/25/2013 02:17 AM

Take deep breathes and go slowly. This is all very new and raw to you.

Remember that he has betrayed you and you are therefore very hurt. You need to regain your control, which he has taken away from you. You do not need to decide NOW whether you R or not. You need time to decide what you want to do. You should not R, just because he wants to. It must be your decision that that is what you want to do. You should only agree to R, if you know the full story all the facts that you want to know and if he is truly remorseful and prepared to work with you to help you heal. He should also go NC with OW and mean it and be completely open and transparent with you about everything he does.

Read the Healing Library for more tips etc. Remember, he was in control when he went behind your back. You are in control ow ( even if you don't feel as though you are). You have to regain the relationship you want.

Insist on full disclosure, remorse and NC. It will take a long time. You won't come to a conclusion over a weekend. He has to demonstrate remorse over a long period and that he is prepared to help you heal.

Your list sounds a good idea. Have you heard of the fishbowl? He may find it hard to answer all the questions at once. You may find that the truth comes out over a long time. If you write all the Qs on separate pieces of paper and put them Ina fishbowl. He can pick them up and answers them one by one over time.

This is early on post DDay. Do bear in mind that he might not tell you all at once and brace yourself for more disclosure. But you can't R properly unless you know the truth.

Getting mad at you is a typical deflection away from himself, as he knows he has done wrong. Remind him that getting mad won't help you to R, so he is going to have to answer your questions and work on R calmly.

Good luck. Keep coming back here and reading other posts for other tips.

Wonderingwhy11 posted 6/25/2013 11:56 AM

My WS went through what you described. He didn't like that I wanted to go through his phone and computer. He was used to me trusting him and not questioning every move he made. It was very frustrating process for me.

I can only tell you what I think as a BS. I have no idea what the WS is thinking other than now almost two years later my WS tells me he was struggling with feeling ashamed, embarrassed and trying to make it go away like how he has handled other problems he faced. He was trying to hold on to both his worlds without them completely colliding and effect all aspects of his life - which he now realizes wasn't possible. Now almost two years later and almost a year of MC he realizes his mistakes and wishes he handled things different - the biggest wish he has is he wish he didn't cheat. But you can't take it back. You can only go forward.

I strongly recommend IC/MC and be prepared it could take awhile for both of you to work through the betrayal. I tried to work through it without MC and we were not getting anywhere.

Work on yourself. Stick to the boundaries you need. Try not to react in anger. Try to stay calm during the heated discussions.

LifeIsBroken posted 6/25/2013 12:14 PM

After the 1st D-Day, my xh went from angry at me, blaming me, to crying, asking himself what was wrong with him, saying he didn't know how to 'fix' himself, 're-dedicating himself to me, to our M and family (can't tell you how many times THAT happened), then right back to being angry at me for the mess HE created and being 'in luv' with the bimbo. I think there were times he kind of 'got' how much he hurt me and our daughters: then he would be remorseful and ashamed of what he had done. Then he'd talk or email or text with the bimbo, and he was right back at square one, cheating and lying yet again and angry with me. I think he couldn't stand himself when he really thought about what he had done to us and to our family. So it was easier to cheat and dream of fantasyland than it was to repair 'us' and do the work on himself that would be required for a happy and healthy him and us. Frankly, the seesaw wore me down and wore me out. I finally decided I didn't have to live like that anymore. I miss the man he was. I don't like the man he is.

sisoon posted 6/25/2013 12:46 PM

I think reading Not "Just Friends" will help. The Healing Library, too.

IMO, it's best not to commit to R until you've seen your WS consistently, for several months, show remorse and do things that rebuild trust. If you see he's all in, and if you still want to R, then you can go all in with a good shot at succeeding. If he's not remorseful, though, he's not a candidate for R, and self-protection is the best mode for you.

Shirley Glass (author of NJF) posits a stage of 'working on the M' as a good way to handle the period before you decide what outcome you'll seek. You do R work, but without committing yourself to R, if that makes sense. (The more your H does the work he needs to do, the more R work you do.)

You may have M issues, but you also have to deal with the trauma of being betrayed. The first thing you need to do is to take care of yourself and your feelings - eat (well...), drink water, sleep (ha!), exercise, see friends, maybe start IC. The best approach to recovering is to put M issues aside until you start to heal from the trauma - and that probably means you need to vent a lot. and he has to take it if he wants R.

If your H is interested in R, it'll probably help if you ID some of your requirements for his review - if he accepts, you can go forward; if he doesn't, send him on his way.

Common reqs include:

Honesty - answering your questions when you ask them, no 'trickle truth', no spin, no lies
Transparency - passwords to phone, email, web history, etc., keeping you informed of his whereabouts and companions at essentially all times
IC - to change the thoughts and feelings that allowed him to cheat and to become a great partner
NC - no contact with aps ever again, except for business if absolutely necessary
MC at some point
'Support' - for example, hearing you vent without becoming defensive
Add your special requests ( could be date night every week/month, etc., requirements WRT sex, new job (if he works with ap), etc. - whatever you want)

I told him i was in a stale and passionless M too and I didn't cheat.

Brilliant, absolutely right on and relevant. This idea is a major source of strength in recovery. It takes some people a while to realize this, but you're starting with it. Feel your strength - it's in you already.

[This message edited by sisoon at 12:47 PM, June 25th (Tuesday)]

tushnurse posted 6/25/2013 13:15 PM

The ball is in your court, for you to decide what you want to do with.
I recommend thinking on what YOU need to be happy, and have a healthy Marriage again. The How you get to that place. You outline to him your requirements to R. You also have consequences for not following through. Be prepared to stick to these. Most WS will do anything to get you to agree to stay, and will promise anything in the heat of the moment, when it comes time to actions is where they will falter.

Whatever you decide its fine, it's your decision, and it will be right for you. I will tell you that you need to real remorse, not boo hoo my doesn't trust me, I'm so sad I was caught, but real honest to god, Holy Crap what have I done to my fmily, I will do anything to make this up to you, and earn your trust back. You want access to all of my electronics here it is, you want a NC letter sent, done. Usually a remorseful spouse will have a mix of both of these initially it takes a bit of time for most of them to get it right.

Read the healing library, keep posting here, and know that NONE of this is your fault. He did this all on his own. Many people feel MC and IC is a must. I think as long as they are doing the real work, and figuring out the why's behind it all, and fixing whatever is broken in them, it can be done without doing that.

Make sure you are taking care of you right now, sleeping, eating, keeping hydrated. If you aren't getting these basic things done, then call your Dr, and see if they can give you something to help with the stress and anxiety. It is normal and very overwhelming.

We are here to offer support.
((((and strength)))

20WrongsVs1 posted 6/25/2013 13:39 PM

You asked for WS input; this isn't advice, but it's perspective from the dark side.

I was in la-la-land, a.k.a. The Fog, for a few weeks after DDay. The stupid shit I said to BH while I was still "high" on the AP is embarrassing. Although I wasn't belligerent like your description of WH, still, I was a lying, NC-breaking POS.

A couple things snapped me out of it. BH semi-180'd me; and he insisted we out the AP to his BW. That not only made further contact too risky, but it smacked me in the face with the horrible fact that I was "the OW." Outing the AP was BH's best move, and I fought it, but it worked and now I'm glad. BH made it clear if I break NC again, we're done--and I believe him. Over several weeks I transitioned from regret to remorse, ended the TT, and started IC.

Like your WH, I was annoyed that BH spoiled my cake-eating! But at least I disclosed the major facts on DDay, made it clear to BH that I wanted our M, started digging into my "whys," and quickly shifted the blame from the M to me.

IDK if Sisoon's reqs were intended to be in priority order, but if so--I agree that MC comes only after the first four things have been 100% embraced by your WH for several weeks or months. Your M is not to blame for his As, not even 1%.

[This message edited by 20WrongsVs1 at 1:41 PM, June 25th (Tuesday)]

1Faith posted 6/25/2013 13:46 PM

Dear Can't

(((hugs)))

***sorry if this is long...your post resonated with me today***

Your WH is projecting to cover the affair. To minimize it.

He is blame shifting that you drove him to this because this way he can attempt to justify his terrible conscious choices.

He is not showing remorse, he is now getting angry because he got caught.

Most WS will tell you they thought they'd never get caught and thought they could keep their two lives compartmentalized.

Don't beat yourself up over not handling the news the "right" way. We all have been there and done that. Hell, there is no play book and you did what 99% of us have done...you lost it. So completely understandable.

So, my response to:

He got VERY mad at me tonight and told me that he thinks i'm crazy

is one that I read from someone else...

"What's the matter doctor Frankenstein, you don't like the monster you created?..."

Hell yes you are crazy because you are losing your mind and heart because he just ripped it out.

You just entered the rollercoaster from hell emotionally and if he's man enough to own his behavior and work on R - he needs to realize he was just elected mayor of Crazytown. You will be an emotional wreck for sometime (sorry) and if he wants to R then he better accept this now.

And he is pissed because you went through his phone and computer? Too f'ing bad.

How about you being pissed because he went in another person?

He has lost all and any right to privacy. He doesn't get a say in what you do. Nada.

Privacy is granted to those you can trust and obviously he doesn't qualify for that list.

He is pissed that his attempts at being honest since Dday have not been received well.

He is pissed when he hasn't even been home to have an actual conversation with you? Are you kidding me? This is complete bullshit.

And I have to play Freud here for a minute...his attempts at honesty?

Huh? Why can he just be honest vs. having to attempt to be honest?

Trust absolutely NOTHING he says right now. Nothing, no matter how much your heart is breaking and you want to believe him and that he loves you.

He wants to control the situation, your response and cover his lying, manipulative ass.

he is pissed and said if i am not there on weds that he will never speak to me again.

Really? Wow. So much for remorse. How about that for a threat?

Call his bluff. Leave him a note stating you are not going to be bullied and threatened because he chose to have an affair. If he wants to have a rational, honest, transparent conversation you are happy to speak with him. However, I chose not be here because you continue to hurt and abuse me emotionally and I simply will not allow it any longer. Leave a number where he can call you.

Only proceed with speaking with him if he apologizes for what he has done and how he has treated you. If he doesn't anything you discuss will be a mute point.

Yes, you have a right to all of your questions but you can't negotiate with a terrorist and right now he is not showing you he will be honest anyway.

He needs to demonstrate some humility and remorse.

You don't have to decided anything right now, on D or R. Just say this is how I will handle today, tomorrow and go from there.

Please work on you right now. Find a good IC for you. MC comes down the line if both of you have done some hard up front work.

I understand why he ended up in an A maybe better than he does

Don't justify the affair. There is no justification for it. Marriages have trouble and hard times but an affair is NEVER the answer. This is not your fault. It was his selfish choices.

You start by standing up for yourself and not being bullied into taking responsibility for the affair.

Good luck. Keep moving. Have faith you can make it through. You can.

[This message edited by 1Faith at 1:59 PM, June 25th (Tuesday)]

Spideysense posted 6/25/2013 14:11 PM

I am not sure what I have to add, I will tell you that I have been on both sides, my A happened first, followed currently by my WH A. He is acting just as your WH, getting angry because i want to talk, telling me there's nothing to talk about, becoming defensive, TTing me, lashing out, calling me names, and the list goes on. So I can relate to what you are feeling and dealing with.
I am also a FWW, there was a time early in my A when my BH thought something was up, I downplayed it at that point, I then turned angry towards him, i said mean hateful things to him, I told him marrying him was a mistake, I told him he ruined my life, i told him I would rather be by myself. I can tell you part of me said it bc i was still on the high from my A, although I didnt want to be with my AP, I felt a little more invincible knowing that I could still attract someone (although obviously I attracted a no good lying blah blah blah since he would cheat with me) so although i didnt mean those things, it was easier to be mean and hateful to him than it was to own my own shit.
Secondly, at that same point, some of the goodness left in me couldnt believe what I was doing, felt like I was so awful (and I was) and he was never going to feel the same way about me again. At that point I had felt like I was going to lose him at some point anyway so why not push him to the brink. Say mean things, blame him, be hateful, then when he left me (as i behaved like I wanted him too) then I could say see...I told you that you were always going to leave and now you are. I know, my logic was ridiculous, i was trying to drive him away to prove "I was right" instead of owning my shit about just how "wrong" i was. anyway, idk if any of this helps, just my two cents

canteat posted 6/25/2013 16:22 PM

. At that point I had felt like I was going to lose him at some point anyway so why not push him to the brink. Say mean things, blame him, be hateful, then when he left me (as i behaved like I wanted him too) then I could say see...I told you that you were always going to leave and now you are.

wow, a while back (before Dday) he said basically the same thing to me. Told me that he is afraid that after some more time in IC I will decide I don't want to be with him. I started IC almost a year ago because there are things I need to work on for me. I have learned a lot from it and just randomly my IC is a recovering alcoholic (20+ years sober) so she can give me some insight into the way my WH mind works.

A little more background-he is also a recovering drug addict. I have learned from my IC that he is in relapse, not recovery. He is clean from drug of choice but has been substituting other things.(not all along-just within the past year. Coincedence that's when I started IC or not? hmm) Spending money on himself was one phase. This is another form of self-medicating for him. It started as EA, then turned P. Doesn't excuse it or make it hurt any less but it does allow me to see that this has everything to do with HIM. The way he feels about himself, and the self-loathing that he must have to feel he "needs" this validation/escape from reality.
I even found a text he sent her that said "you have me addicted to you just like a drug." It could have probably happened with any skanky woman who presented herself as available so I try not to focus too much on the OW and that she is not "special" at all. that is hard cause thinking of her makes me sick and i want to smack the shiznit out of her. and then vomit.

We have talked about him getting a different IC because he doesn't seem to be getting too far with the one he has now. (one he really liked moved away so this was a new guy) WH has told me that he thought since he was free from drug of choice that he is fine. He has now realized that he's not. He already called his IC and talked to him about possibly getting a new IC. They are going to discuss that in their next session. WH and I had a talk about how he has to be honest with IC but also how IC should be able to tell if he is substituting one addiction for another.(my IC saw that a mile away with the money thing and after i told her about the A she said she wasn't at all surprised given his situation.) I don't think his current IC has enough experience with addicts to call bullsh*t on them. My IC feels that the best therapist for an addict is one who has walked the walk and knows all the games. I think my WH has gotten one over on his IC and has just been going through the motions. Sad thing is I think WH believed it himself and is now shocked to learn that he's been kidding himself for a while.

[This message edited by canteat at 4:25 PM, June 25th (Tuesday)]