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so, my WH has sworn it's over, has even in the last week started to express a bit of remorse not attached to a "but "statement and I was starting to feel hopeful again. DD, our youngest, is leaving for a year abroad in 36 hrs. She and I are very close and I am quite emotional about this separation from her but was thinking at least WH and I can do some serious work on our relationship if he was really committed to doing so. And to be honest, if I was really committed since he's told me that this latest LTA was over 5 times now (the last 2 times he said he was just spending time with her trying to convince her it was over, but nothing physical happened). So tonight, I'm helping DD pack, we're both stressed to the max and I get an email from OW telling me "surprise, it's not over, he's stringing us both along and we need to figure out what's going on." Show WH the email and he's so angry at her for telling me because he had planned to come clean as soon as DD was in the air. I told him I wanted him out of the house as soon as DD was gone, he refuses, saying he wants me to give him 3 months to prove himself. If you've seen my other posts, you may now that he was involved with her when we started pretty intense MC, really working on our issues. He says he sees now that I"M GETTING BETTER in my behavior and more like the woman he fell in love with and he wants to be wtih me. He says he ended it with her TODAY which is exactly what he said the last time she emailed me to let me know it was going on. He admits that he has a problem and he's really working on it and is forming a circle of support that he can call on when he feels impulsive (because, you know, a 3 year long affair is totally impulsive and spontaneous). He wants me to be one of his team members and when I said I can't he got upset. I cannot believe this b***h emailed me when I am so fragile already. I cannot believe my WH has continued the affair. Oh wait, I think I can. Is there any way to trust him again?

Is there any way to trust him again?

No

If you want to stay married to a man like that, then be prepared to verify EVERYTHING he says and does.

Like you, I have had more then one d day. I know how it feels to be deceived, especially during intens e marital counselling.

I want to believe my WH when he says he isn't seeing this woman, but the truth is I can't. Not if I want to keep one ounce of my self respect.

If you want to stay married to this man, and he wants to stay married to you, he will prove himself to you. In my opinion , he will have to prove he is trustworthy before you can begin to repair the damage he has done. I would not trust anything he says. Of course he is going to say its over, he is faced with losing everything he currently has at home.

I would not believe him. I would 180 him to start, tell him no more. Tell him if he wants you, or your marriage, he has to show you that. But I would not continue on in a relationship with him while this is happening.

I am currently seperated form my WH, we still talk and some days I think we might get back together one day, but I can't trust him. He has tried to earn my trust back, but time will tell what will happen.

You need to take care of yourself , and living in a world where someone is constantly deceiving you and making your life a living hell is no way to live.

My gut says you will have another d day if you stay. He obviously isn't ready to let go of this woman. Have you demanded he does. Has he ever done the NCletter or phone calls? Just curious if he has ever done anything to try to earn your trust back.

It's a long painful road. I feel for you. Hugs

I demanded NC, he said those were just my rules and I was unreasonable . He has not done anything to earn my trust back. I have been doing the 180 and he says he misses me, but I haven't been willing to kick him out because time witth DD was so short. I find doing the 180 is hard. I speak to him as little as possible and try to keep it just business. He got angry the other night because I said I didn't want to talk about our problems at that time and he said I never want to talk about problems. How does one even decide if it's worth reconciling if we're not even talking. I prefer to only talk about things during MC,he wants to talk about it othr times, but I don't trust eithr him or myself in those conversations (he's a master manipulator). How can you do a 180 and MC or does one decide one really wants to reconcile before MC? I don't understand what the process is at this point. it's all so confusing. I just want him out of the house, but he has refused so far.

i swear some of these scenarios people who are cheating create are just like junior high dramas .. omg i cant BELIEVE you are telling me I can't talk to jenny anymore that is SOOOO mean!

Honestly I personally would kick him out and 180 for your own peace of mind. I wouldn't argue his stupidity at all. Just radio silence until he is more movtivated to man up and bust his behind to make it right with you, rather than running to OW cause mommy was meeeeeeean.

[This message edited by Kalliopeia at 1:38 AM, July 8th (Monday)]

Did I read that right??? Because YOU are "getting better" he now wants to be with you???

What happens when you have a bad day? He'll cheat again?

Um..and why should you have to "get better" for him to love you??

He cheated..HE needs to get better..a whole helluva lot better. Right now he is a cheating,lying POS.

And he wants YOU to support HIM? Does he not realize he did this TO you??

FTG.

Seriously.

F.T.G.

He says he sees now that I"M GETTING BETTER in my behavior and more like the woman he fell in love with and he wants to be wtih me.

This statement alone is all I would need to know he isn't serious about R, nor is he taking responsibility for his choices. You can't R with somebody who feels this way. At the very least, you can't R with somebody who's too stupid to know that this was the dumbest thing he could have said.

Please kick his ass to the curb. You deserve better than settling for him.

(((Lackingcourage)))

I cannot believe some of the crap our WS put us through. This is discusting behavior and he has totally disrespected everything in your marriage and he is probably not planning on stopping anytime soon.

"surprise, it's not over, he's stringing us both along and we need to figure out what's going on."

WTF? We need to figure out what's going on??? There is and will never be we! She sounds like she wants to be your team mate or something. She needs to go away forever, there is no we!

At the very least I would talk to an attorney and start getting all of the ducks kined up. Maybe serving him with papers will help pull his head from his anal cavity.

You do not deserve this kind of treatment at all.

He says he sees now that I"M GETTING BETTER in my behavior and more like the woman he fell in love with and he wants to be wtih me

.

This makes me want to and is a huge red flag. He is saying this A is at least partially your fault.

I cannot believe this b***h emailed me when I am so fragile already.

This is right out of the cheating handbook. She probably feels that she can push you to divorce him and then claim her prize.

Please take care of yourself, we are all here for you.

I'm so sorry you're having to deal with this. Please understand I only have your best interests at heart.

You can't R with this man, you can't trust him, you can't rely on him and you can't depend on him.

This is because in his world he hasn't done anything wrong. He feels total justification for his lying, cheating and deceiving. He feels entitled to have affairs, based on his own screwed up perception of your marriage.

I don't care how lacking you were as a wife (and I don't think you were nearly as bad as you think you were...) nothing you have or have not done has given him permission to lie, cheat and deceive.

Tell me, do these feelings of not being as good a partner as you might have been, stem from what he's complained to you about? Or do you truly feel this way?

Honey it wouldn't matter if you turned into a "Stepford" wife, and cater to his every whim, he'll still cheat, because that's who he is. His treatment of you and the things he says are just cruel.

This is 100% on him.

He feels entitled.

I just hate to see you beat yourself up for not being supportive of the man who's betrayed you.

IMO, your best option is yes, the 180, hard. Forget MC, get yourself a great IC (you mention that yours is only "OK").. and build up your self-esteem.

If he can't let this OW go, then don't wait another moment for him, let her have him. It's just too soul destroying, too damaging to your fragile self respect.

Please try and stop talking to him, trying to get him to say what you need to hear, 180, 180, 180.

Get yourself to a great lawyer, find out what position you're in, knowledge is power, strength is attractive. Get a great IC, and start living life for yourself, take care of yourself honey.

[This message edited by hard_yards at 8:22 AM, July 8th (Monday)]

So, I think I am going to ask him to leave the house this week to work on his stuff. He wants me to give him 3 months to work on it; I can do that as long as I don't have to see him every day. My fear is that he will refuse to leave. What do I do then? I don't really have any place to go. I don't want to tell him this until after tomorrow when DD leaves because I know I'll be enough of a basket case just having said good bye to her. He'll just insist that we need to talk and that I have refused to talk to him for years and this is more of the same and it's my fault, etc.

I'm sitting here trying to come up with ...*something*...for you. And I'm failing because "tell him to go fuck himself" is the only sentence in my head. (ok, I stepped away for a minute and got a grip on myself--realized it's an anti Day for me....)

How does one even decide if it's worth reconciling if we're not even talking.

So, let's see. WHY aren't you talking? Could it possibly be because he's a blame-shifting, gas-lighting, manipulative, still-*in*-his-affair douchebag? *Reconciliation* is not even an option at this point in time.

Why should you agree to give him 3 months to do whateverthefuck he's telling you that he needs the time for? Why are YOU expected to keep making these agreements with him when he can't be bothered to hold up his end of the bargain on agreements that are already in place? Shit, the guy won't even verbally agree to NC. As far as I can tell, he doesn't even consider going NC with her as an option. He seems to use that as a way to get you to *back off* and be the "woman that he fell in love with."

(that Evanescence song, "<something> sober", keeps running through my mind)

MC with this guy will be a nightmare. And I'll bet that if you try it, you'll find that it'll be a HUGE trigger for you. Take that (the trigger) and his piss-poor attitude into MC and you are going to get emotionally slaughtered.

As for where to go from here.....your WH is going to be a tough nut to *crack*, if it's even possible. He needs shock-and-awe. So I suggest this:

Say to him: "This is a yes/no question, not an essay. Are you willing to have absolutely no contact with OW from this second forward?"

And then wait.

I highly doubt that he will answer with a simple 'yes'.

So give him 2 attempts at *essaying* you. Respond with "yes or no?"

On the 3rd attempt or if he flat-out says no......get into your car, drive to OW's house, and deposit the suitcase that you packed for him and stashed in your car onto her front porch.

He has ping-ponged back and forth between the 2 of you for too long now. He needs to know that you mean business. It's time to rock the boat because your previous efforts at stabilizing it aren't working since he is hell-bent on tossing you into the ocean.

There will only be backward-motion for as long as your WH still sees the OW as an 'option', which he clearly still does.

OK, so you tell him to leave and he refuses. What next?

You throw him out of your bedroom. Everything that belongs to him is tossed out one day while he's at work and the locksmith that you have made an appointment with, installs a heavy-duty lock on the door that locks from both sides. You have two keys one that you wear around your neck and the other with a friend who has instructions to only give it to you. From this point on, your door is always locked, no matter if you're in there or not. Always. He moves into another room or to the driveway who cares?

You clear out 1/2 of the refrigerator and a shelf in the pantry. And that is his area. You treat him like a not-to-be-trusted roommate that you have to have around because of finances. You stop doing anything for him. You don't shop for him. You don't do laundry for him. You don't cook for him. You draw up a list of household chores and either the two of you pick an equal number, or you just divvy it up and if the grass overgrows the roof, too bad.

You 180 him hard and fast. Children and finances and since your DD is out of town, there's not a lot to talk about on the kids end. You start living your life and make the decision if you want to even give him the 3 months or not. If not, you see a lawyer.

Don't let him drive the train anymore. You drive it.

I demanded NC, he said those were just my rules and I was unreasonable

Do you want an open marriage? Because that's what you've got with this man. He thinks expecting fidelity is "unreasonable".

If you want a monogamous marriage, there is no MC, no R, no talking, no nothing until he goes completely NC and you can verify NC.

Say to him: "This is a yes/no question, not an essay. Are you willing to have absolutely no contact with OW from this second forward?"

^^^^This from gonna. If his answer is not a simple "yes" then there is nothing to talk about but essentials. Kids, finances and divorce.

If he wants to talk about the relationship, just keep repeating, "No NC, no talking." Tell him to go talk to his OW, while you go talk to your lawyer.

I'm not going to say "if I was you, I would" because I'm classic doormat but what I see is..he wants you both. He comes clean when ow tells his secret. He's blaming you for his infidelity " when you fix you, he will jump back on board,

I'm so sorry you got hit with this at such a difficult time. I hope he will leave so you can process and proceed. If he won't, he would become Mr. Invisible man, pretend he's not there. A man with 2 women obviously thrives on attention..give him nada. Good luck yo you.

Hon, you really need to value yourself more. You are not on this Earth to live your life pleasing him. He should be on his knees begging forgiveness. He's a cheater.

So, WS wrote me a long heartfelt email when I told him I didn't want to deal with him at all today after DD left. He said he was really hurt, that he was looking forward to it, that he's not a monster but he had made huge mistakes and is very sorry. Said a lot of the right stuff, and that little seed in my chest that hopes for R got a little bit of water and sunshine to give it a bit of life. Urge to kick him out wilted quite a bit. Is he for real this time? He's said the right stuff before. I told him I needed time to figure out what I wanted to do, and that I have an appt with IC later this week and will discuss with her. On a side note, DD left an amazing letter for him to find when she left. Called him out on a lot of his shit, using a lot of the same ideas that I have tried to share with him and he has rebuked (none of which I ever shared with DD). I am impressed by her wisdom and honesty. Maybe that will sink in where I haven't been able to. (for those of you who don't know, she is aware of LTA, and the fact that he's gone back to her at least twice. I shielded her from this past weekend's revelation, figuring she had enough drama in her life what with going abroad for a year). Thoughts?

My thoughts are unless the letter says "I've been a selfish ass and I'm willing to go NC immediately and do whatever I can to earn your trust back and be worthy of you" that email is likely not worth the bandwidth it took to send it.

Often, after d-days...and multiple d-days...we BSs are starving for affection. Probably from even before the A. So we get letters we think are genuine and heartfelt and only realize later they're more manipulation from a cheater trying desperately to keep the status quo so their cushy setup doesn't change.

Post the letter here, and I guarantee people removed from the situation will give you a different perspective than you have based on your history with him and the dynamics you two have built over the years.

[This message edited by Holly-Isis at 5:15 PM, July 9th (Tuesday)]

Letters are nice.

Actions are the only thing that meas something.

Did he write and show you a no contact letter to the OW?

Did he offer to take a polygraph?

Did he make an appt with an IC?

Did he set up an STD panel for himself?

Did he offer you a post nup?

I would not back down right now. Not at all.

Find the top divorce attorneys in your area and consult with them all. Find one you like and then find out your rights. By consulting with them all, he cannot retain them.

He says he sees now that I"M GETTING BETTER in my behavior and more like the woman he fell in love with and he wants to be wtih me.

Sorry but this is f*cking bullshit. Where is the man you fell in love with? He is the one who f'd up, he is the one who needs to fix it. The onus should not be on you. While you may have been part of the problems in the marriage, he is the one who stepped out.

You said he's doing nothing to reconcile, make amends, do the work, etc.

Why do you want to stay with him? Don't look at the man he WAS, look at the man he IS now. What about that man would make you want to stay with him?

Will he be transparent? Will he be accountable for his time? Will he be ok with checking in all the time until YOU decide you can trust him again? All passwords, access to cell, computer, etc?

[This message edited by Mousse242 at 7:05 PM, July 9th (Tuesday)]

The only thing different this time is that he has a really good IC and he says he's really digging in. Sometimes I hear it, but then something else stupid comes out of his mouth to negate it. He has always refused IC in the past but, like an addict, now sees that there might be a problem.