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User Topic: Consequences?
uncertainone
♀ 28108
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 12:45 PM, July 14th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


A BS's anger is completely normal and understandable. I agree 100%. Where I get derailed a bit is the following addendum, "he/she chose those consequences when he/she cheated. 

Ok. Here's where I have an issue. To me, truth is universal. Not situational. If something is true in one situation, it's probably going to be true in all similar situations. 

If the rage, outbursts, and verbal lashings are consequences regardless of how long or how virulent it sometimes is, how is that a limited concept? If you treated your wife/husband like something you found stuck to the bottom of your shoe for years what do you think the consequences for that is? They divorce you, in many cases giving up over half their shit along with time with kids? 

I can very much understand the rage of betrayal. I do think at some point it's like a Marx brothers movie with the 2x4. Blindsided the first time. At some point you learn to duck, vacate, or take the welder out. Does there not become an understanding that by choosing to stay you also are accepting the consequences of being close to someone that just fucked you over sideways? 

As a healing WS do you not the own the consequences of continuing to blur boundaries with shame and guilt your cheerleader? 

Certainly not right out of the gate. I get that as well. 


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
EmotionalFool
♀ 37362
Member # 37362
Default  Posted: 12:55 PM, July 14th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

As a healing WS do you not the own the consequences of continuing to blur boundaries with shame and guilt your cheerleader?

what does this mean?


WW: 28 (ME)
BH: 28 (SI profile: CrappyLife)
D-Day- 15/10/12

Posts: 334 | Registered: Nov 2012
TXwifemom
♀ 37945
Member # 37945
Default  Posted: 1:53 PM, July 14th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Yes, I agree. I am a BS, so I'm going to speak freely.

As a BS that for now is still married, I am knowingly accepting a WS that "fucked (me) over sideways".

Yup, I struggle with that everyday. In a sense (I will say it as a BS), I get what I deserve. It if happens again, in a sense, I was the dumbass that chose to stay.

Caveat emptor.

Some BS like the role of being the hurt one. Maybe that has something to do with it for some.

for me, I guess I could say again that I love my kids more than I hate my husband. My mother divorced my dad because she was selfish and wanted "fun". Marriage and real life aren't always fun. But I made a commitment not to atom bomb my kids for my own superficial happiness. Not saying I can't be peacefully here with my WH. I can be. I can even find a modicum of happiness. But that is finding the happiness in ME, not because of him.

You don't save a marriage for the kids if you're going to walk around pouting forever. One, that's not saving any marriage. And two, the kids sense the pouting.

If and when it becomes anything but symbiotic for me, and anything but great for the kids, I'm gone.

If he cheats again, yes, I am the one that drove the car with the shitty broken down engine. If it deserts me, then yes, it is a consequence of my staying.

But my kids mean more to me than giving up. And my WH (for now) is trying hard. And yes, my numbness is a consequence of staying with someone that didn't care enough to give me a moment of thought before he atom bombed my life.
consequences, yes. Numbness. Not as bad as holding my babies as they cry when I am the one that destroys their lives.

Divorce destroys lives. Staying married and being a hostile passive aggressive bitch destroys lives. But there is another option. Trying to find peace and happiness inside myself does not mean I have to scrap my marriage. Sometimes affairs are a cry for help. They are not always meant to create a divorce.

Working it out and being periodically angry, and letting my kidlets see me deal with strife and remain a mature adult teaches lessons. Showing them that life is not perfect, and neither is daddy or mommy teaches lessons. Just because things got hairy at mile 20 doesn't mean I'm not finishing my marathon.

But if he reaches over and trips me again as I run, he is cut loose faster than I can say divorce. Because that is teaching my kids that I am not a pushover or a martyr. You get a second chance, but not if you don't do the work, fix yourself. In the meantime, I won't be the martyr, but WH has to deal with my anger and pain. It ain't clean. It is messy. It's the difference between a nice clean amputation of a gangrenous limb versus trying to treat the infection with multiple surgeries and interventions. Sometimes it works to save the limb, sometimes it makes the person toxic not to amputate, but sometimes they come out of it intact and cured.......

So I guess hope is my BS shortcoming. Hope that I will overcome this. Hope that I am making the right decision. Hope that my WH steps up and grows into a mature intact human being with a Superego and less of a walking ID.

And if I made another bad decision, yes, I will deal with the consequences. But I've dealt with worse, trust me. I'm less invested this time around. I'm running this marathon wearing Kevlar.

[This message edited by TXwifemom at 1:55 PM, July 14th (Sunday)]


Posts: 231 | Registered: Dec 2012 | From: texas
uncertainone
♀ 28108
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 3:31 PM, July 14th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Some BS like the role of being the hurt one. Maybe that has something to do with it for some.

Maybe. I've never got that from posts I've read. I have been on this site over three years and have seen some posters change.

Yes, one can "blame" the affair. Yet if FOO issues are dismissed and mocked as worthless excuses, how close is that to "why can't you just get over it?"

Child abuse is years of repeated constant torture robbing children of their development steps and lessons while teaching them horrific coping skills and destroying their self worth.

A 2 month affair is fucking horrific, no doubt. No one would ever THINK of telling a BS to just fucking get over it. Deal. Accept. Nope. The posts that comfort with 2-5 years and maybe forever. Forever changed. Forever different and certainly not in a good way...accepted and repeated.

Bottom line, to me, is while one does not choose the horror that life can inflict using tools that are SUPPOSED to be safe, nurturing, supportive, we make choices ever second after we have that knowledge. How we respond. If we stay. If we go. How we protect ourselves.

Each of those choices carry consequences regardless of the impetus for those choices...the fairness of their presentation in our lives. No one gets a pass. It's not about other's judgements or perception. Those are just the facts.

Do we not need to all accept that ownership?

EF, what I meant was healing WS that are serious about growth and health have to decide when recompense is counterproductive to that goal. We, who dealt the blow may not be the tool to help heal that atrocity.

If we use shame and guilt as the support for those choices we aren't on any path at all. Just a pit that keeps getting deeper with periodic wild attempts at fresh air. We already kinda know how those go.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
Jospehine85
♀ 35971
Member # 35971
Default  Posted: 3:46 PM, July 14th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

uncertainone,

Are you saying that a WS that is still being "punished" by their BS a couple years out from the A, need to think about leaving?

I would agree. I think a BS at some point (and like you said, not in the initial aftermath) needs to be able to stop punishing the WS and move in to a more constructive mode of interacting. There is a time limit to how long a WS should take what ever is dished out. Because at some point it does become just abuse.

What is good for the Betrayed is good for the Wayward.


Me - BS 40s
WH - 50s
4 Kids
Dday May 2012

Posts: 1052 | Registered: Jun 2012
TXwifemom
♀ 37945
Member # 37945
Default  Posted: 3:55 PM, July 14th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

One key difference here is that with FOO issues, you don't have to stay married to your abuser. You don't have to raise kids with them. You can cut ties with the FOO.

It is different. If my I came to my sister and cried on her shoulder about my husbands affair five years from now, then she would tell me to get over it. Appropriately so. With FOO stuff, you can leave and not deal with the abuser if you want.

With spouses when kids are involved, it's not that easy. Even if my WH beat me (he didn't) I would still have to treat him decently when I handed off my kids to him. I don't have to hand off my kids to my mother who beat me.


Posts: 231 | Registered: Dec 2012 | From: texas
changedforlife
♀ 38474
Member # 38474
Default  Posted: 3:56 PM, July 14th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

BS here. I do not post in this forum but I do read here and I find it very insightful. Thank you to all the WS that post here.

I don't really have a response to the original poster although uncertainone, I think you were a philosopher in a previous life.

TXwifemom - Your post really resonated with me. I feel for you. I hope that you can move past the numbness to more for you but I have not read your story so it is not for me to say. I hope to have more for myself and that I don't have to suffer any consequences by staying.

[This message edited by changedforlife at 3:57 PM, July 14th (Sunday)]


Me - BS/Him - WH (in our 40's)
Together 21 years/ 1 preschooler
D-day - Jan 24/13 He confessed about affair.
Broken NC -Feb 7-22,Feb 28,March 6
Continued Contact up to July 16
D-DAY 2-July 19 FALSE R!

Posts: 133 | Registered: Feb 2013
TXwifemom
♀ 37945
Member # 37945
Default  Posted: 3:58 PM, July 14th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

And no one deserves abuse. Even the WS. Period.

I think talking about anger, etc. is not abusive. Dealing with feelings is not abusive. Making my WS face my pain that he caused is not abusive. The problem is also that some WS have a knack for escaping, hence the compartmentalization. So claiming abuse for the first time from your BS could also be not wanting to deal with the BS in pain.

I understand some battered spouses use affairs to exit the relationship. But that is the minority.


Posts: 231 | Registered: Dec 2012 | From: texas
hardlessons
♂ 35025
Member # 35025
Default  Posted: 4:39 PM, July 14th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

To me, truth is universal. Not situational. If something is true in one situation, it's probably going to be true in all similar situations.

How does that work? So, once a cheater always a cheater? Once a victim, always a victim?

There are consequences for everything we choose, some are ours to own and some are thrust upon us. We still get to choose how we deal with those too.

As a healing WS do you not the own the consequences of continuing to blur boundaries with shame and guilt your cheerleader?

Is that WS really healing?

Maybe, maybe not, was never into cheerleaders. I like'd the girl in parachute pants with the def leppard tee shirt who sat in front of me in geometry!!


Me WH
Wife Tired Girl
3 adult sons
"a wayward...annnnd just a tad betrayed."

Posts: 880 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: Arizona
rachelc
♀ 30314
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 5:39 PM, July 14th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Does there not become an understanding that by choosing to stay you also are accepting the consequences of being close to someone that just fucked you over sideways?

hope I can answer this as a BS. Today I saw OW#1 at the pool. I left shortly thereafter. If I choose to stay with my husband, do I accept that I will occasionally see these women? I guess so. Will he hear about it every time in a hurt but not angry way?? count on it. Is that abusive? Don't know. If it is and he doesn't like it he should get out now.
I bet there are many out there that aren't quite as close to those who just effed them over. Not even close. Staying for many other reasons. JMO.

as a wayward? hmmmm, I will accept that rage anywhere, anytime.. If you don't have shame or guilt attached to what you have done anymore, there isn't much emotion tied to hearing it than being there to listen to the BS.

[This message edited by rachelc at 5:40 PM, July 14th (Sunday)]


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5757 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
20WrongsVs1
♀ 39000
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 6:53 PM, July 14th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

UO, this won't be the first time I failed to understand your point, so with that caveat: I'm getting the impression you feel a BS's anger has a half life. How long do you reckon the BS is entitled to be angry? Right out of the gate it's understandable, you say, but at what point is it no longer acceptable?

You're saying, I think, that accepting the consequences of our actions is a two-way street. Yes, choosing R means that at some point, the partners need to say "bygones!" and move forward together as equals. Far too soon for BH & I to know, but each couple, each situation is unique. Some BSs on SI still seem angry 2-3 years out, while others are harmoniously R'd in 9 months. Who, outside of each M, is qualified to say when detente should be reached?


fWW: 42
BH: 52
DDay: April 21, 2013
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1260 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
aesir
♂ 17210
Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 7:38 PM, July 14th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

One key difference here is that with FOO issues, you don't have to stay married to your abuser. You don't have to raise kids with them. You can cut ties with the FOO.
Once you are an adult, you can cut ties with anyone you want, at any time you want, for any reason you want.

With FOO stuff, you can leave and not deal with the abuser if you want.
And yet all of those lessons learned, and all of those coping skills developed during the formative years of your life, you are still stuck with. Just as we (here) would condemn anyone saying "aren't you over it yet" to a betrayed spouse, should we also not recognize that this can be inappropriate with FOO issues as well.

I think a BS at some point (and like you said, not in the initial aftermath) needs to be able to stop punishing the WS and move in to a more constructive mode of interacting. There is a time limit to how long a WS should take what ever is dished out. Because at some point it does become just abuse.
Punishment is not necessarily conducive to rehabilitation at any point. It may or may not be necessary in order to make people think about what they have done.

So claiming abuse for the first time from your BS could also be not wanting to deal with the BS in pain.
This is quite true. Hell, I can remember being called abusive for insisting on NC. Look it up, it is on the checklists for signs of abuse, trying to control a partners friends and social interaction. She had lots of cheerleaders that jumped on that bandwagon.


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
lostmylight55
♂ 33517
Member # 33517
Default  Posted: 7:56 PM, July 14th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Your post seems fairly cryptic to me and I have a hard time deciphering what your intended question/point is.

That being said, I will speak from my own experience as a WS. When we were fresh after Dday my BS raged, called me horrible names (but accurate ones) and cried a lot. I have been a conflict avoider most of my life, my first response to negativity is to shut down and run. If I had not changed after Dday, we would not be going into our third year of R.

My counselor once asked me how much am I willing to take before I say enough. My answer to her, and to anyone else for that matter is… "As long as it takes!". At that time, I hoped it would get better and I thought it would get better and I was right.

IMO, This doesn't make me weak or a doormat or compliant or a victim OR abused. I needed to see the pain in my BS face and hear her outrage and frustration, not just for my A but also for a large part of our marriage. I witnessed PTSD first hand – I now understand what it is.

I never raised my hand to my BS, never yelled or called her names but I was abusive just the same. I was emotionally abusive to her in our marriage, I was unavailable/neglectful, I was passive aggressive and self-centered. This was all before my A and it only magnified exponentially during my A. Yet everyone outside of the marriage including my W said I was a "Good Guy". Hell, I thought I was a "Good Guy".

She didn't have the opportunity to vent or rage or whatever while it was going on because she didn't have all the information at the time and I wouldn't have listened anyway. Her anger wasn't just to punish me, but to express her outrage and incredible hurt at a life of living with someone she thought she knew and trusted but came to find she didn't. With PTSD there is little control over the emotions that come on.

I accept the consequences for my actions. For me, walking away would have been the easier path, but also for me, I would not be growing as quickly without seeing the anger that pain brings first hand – if at all. With those consequences, I experience a lot of positive things not just in myself but with our relationship. In some ways, I think, along with therapy, i have actually helped my BS heal a little by being here with her.

As I have said, we are entering year 3 into R and doing remarkably well. We laugh and enjoy each other, we talk a lot, we read together and cry together as well and if once in a while there is a trigger that sets my BS into a bad space, I will plant my feet, hold her hand and ride out the storm with her.

But I believe every situation is unique and should be considered so.


My Boundaries are firm: Trespassers will be shot on sight.

Posts: 91 | Registered: Oct 2011
TXwifemom
♀ 37945
Member # 37945
Default  Posted: 8:30 PM, July 14th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Aesir, you can't cut ties with the father of your children. Unless you take the kids off to Mexico. Which is illegal. Just sayin'

Gotta have contact to pass the kids off..... Even if you get a court supervised situation, you still have to see them. And we won't even go into how being awful to your ex affects the kids......

[This message edited by TXwifemom at 8:31 PM, July 14th (Sunday)]


Posts: 231 | Registered: Dec 2012 | From: texas
rachelc
♀ 30314
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 9:03 PM, July 14th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Lost- what a great post. Thank you....


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5757 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
silverhopes
♀ 32753
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 9:15 PM, July 14th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What an interesting topic. There was something I read in Shattered Vows (Debra Laaser) about consequences that made me think:

...You create the most natural consequences out of your feeling. Problems will arise if you're not in tune with your own feelings...The most honest consequence our spouses can experience from us is an accurate expression of how we feel. Many [spouses] will rage or blame or throw out threats. Others will show up with overflowing compassion and patience. But somewhere under both of those responses is a lot of sadness and grief. Those are emotions that your [spouse] can take in. Those remind [your spouse] of the precious heart [s/he] has harmed. (pg. 42)

Some [betrayed spouses] will want to create consequences for their [wayward spouses] simply because [s/he] has done a bad thing and they believe [s/he] needs to be punished or [s/he] will do it again. But choosing punishing behaviors just for the sake of reprimanding your [spouse] never works. Check your motivation: if you are sharing your feelings and making decisions to take care of yourself, you are being authentic. Consequences born of authenticity are the ones most likely to have an impact. (pg. 43)

This spoke to me because it makes it less about controlling your partner and more about tending your own wounds and suffering. It also makes it possible for support from your partner to come from a genuine place. If your partner doesn't want to be supportive, you cannot make them, and that is the heart-breaking reality.

I think this applies for a lot of cases. For marital problems where one partner hurts another, separate from infidelity. For things that happen within FOO. Be true to your feelings and express them; the response will tell you whether or not you are safe, and then you can act to protect your safety.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3935 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
UnexpectedSong
♀ 21761
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 11:04 PM, July 14th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

One key difference here is that with FOO issues, you don't have to stay married to your abuser

I disagree completely. When something awful happens to you as an adult, you have the capability to decide to stay or go. When you talk about cutting ties with FOO people, it has been years of programming while you were a captive audience.

When you are six or seven or fifteen, you are stuck where you are while your brain gets fucked up rewired.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6121 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
uncertainone
♀ 28108
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 11:39 PM, July 14th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

But I believe every situation is unique and should be considered so.

Of course. That wasn't the topic of my post...how or how not to r.

I don't feel my post was cryptic, or it certainly wasn't intended to be.

My position was simply consequences for our choices are universal not alphabet driven. When one chooses to stay, there are consequences for that choice as well. For both partners.

20wrong, no, that is not what I'm saying. It has nothing to do with how valid anger is nor how long one can feel it.

Josephine, no I'm not stating anyone HAS to leave nor judge when enough is enough.

I am puzzled by the confusion. I read posts that when the anger and the pain is expressed the response is "the WS chose to engage in something that created this pain...these are the consequences".

Everyone seems to grasp that concept with no question, however what is missing from that equation is the betrayed and the consequences for those actions on themselves. We don't control what others do. We do absolutely control our responses. When choosing to stay there are consequences for that including the presence of a partner that has violated your trust and your understanding of reality. Be careful. While the hugs an support are comforting each action you take that leads you farther away from who you believe yourself to be is dangerous.

I can say that without equivocation. I chose to reconcile too. For years. After every betrayal of his fist, feet, tongue, force. It takes a horrific toll. It was not responsible for my disasterous decisions. I was. Every one of them. Now I hail to "you" from this forum.

Whether one chooses to reconcile or not is not in and of itself a testament of strength or of weakness. It's the courage to face who we are and what we are becoming that is important, to me.

When I came to SI I came for help with anger and pain. My posts looked very much like those I read in general and just found out. What did he expect when he chose to do what he did to me for fucking years.

Until...I was helped to see how his choices didn't create my pain. Mine did.

[This message edited by uncertainone at 12:51 AM, July 15th (Monday)]


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
Unagie
♀ 37091
Member # 37091
Default  Posted: 1:12 AM, July 15th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think I get what your saying UO. I think it's why I'm having such a hard time coping with my current situation because despite his actions I am the one choosing to stay. I am reaping the consequences of that choice every day.


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

"There are times when our reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind." Patrick Rothfuss


Posts: 2811 | Registered: Oct 2012
uncertainone
♀ 28108
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 1:34 AM, July 15th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think I get what your saying UO. I think it's why I'm having such a hard time coping with my current situation because despite his actions I am the one choosing to stay. I am reaping the consequences of that choice every day.

You do and yes, you are.

Why? You don't owe me, an answer unagie. Just yourself.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
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