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User Topic: does defensiveness equal UNremorse?
sri624
♀ 33956
Member # 33956
Default  Posted: 5:31 PM, July 19th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

we got into yet another arugment today. i told him how horribly i feel for being "fooled." fooled by him and the ow...they "played" me behind my back to keep their affair going for a long time. during the false r. and then of course i talked about just the pain of all he did...and i brought up all the details.

at first he was understanding and supportive...and then he got defensive and angry. he started to say things like...."do you really think you can ever forgive me after all i have done?" he talked about starting over with a clean slate. how he knows it would be easier for me to start over too. he says that it is difficult to be reminded everyday of all the horrible things he did when he is trying so hard to be a better man...a sober man.

well, that got me upset...feeling like he wanted to bail because it was "too hard." it went back and forth...back and forth.

and then i blew up completely, and really let him have it, and pretty much told him that he could leave. and that he didnt have the compassion or the strengh to "deal" with the pain he has created.

it was an ugly fight...and we are not speaking.

i am so mad.

you guys...he has been a monster. and becasue for 8 months he has been good...i am suppose to "move on?"

doesnt he get that i want to move on too?

he told me also that he doesnt want to spend the next 10 years after all of his hard work to earn my trust only to have me turn around and ask him about him cheating with the pilates instructor. he said no one deserves that.

of course i went off....

maybe he just isnt strong enough to see this through....i dont want to spend the next 10 years on this shit either...no way.

he feels like a monster, well he is.


BS (41):(Former Doormat)
WS (39):(Busted Cheater)
Married: 10 years, 3 kids under 5
DD1: 10/11 PA/EA with pilates instructor/former stripper.
DD2: 10/12 False r, cheating with other women, online dating,Substance abuse issues.
R:Last chance

Posts: 1039 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: Alabama
RockyMtn
♀ 37043
Member # 37043
Default  Posted: 9:58 PM, July 19th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Defensiveness is human, to a degree. Even remorseful WS will be defensive on occasion when they feel accusations are not true, for example. Even when they, deep down, understand that it is their actions that led to accusations - sometimes the defensiveness will bubble over; it is instinct, human nature. It is how quickly they recover from that defensiveness and turn back towards kindness and understanding and openness. Which your WH hasn't done.

he told me also that he doesnt want to spend the next 10 years after all of his hard work to earn my trust only to have me turn around and ask him about him cheating with the pilates instructor. he said no one deserves that.

Too bad, so sad. R is a risk for everyone involved. It is riskier for you! I mean, you could go through this for 10 years only to turn around and have him do it again, right? That right there is risky business. Hell, M is a risk. Tell him this M and this R is not going to be handed to him on a silver platter, with rugsweeping and guarantees.


Me, BS, 30s
Him, WS, 30s, Steppenwolf
Kids: Yep
D-Day 1: September 2011, 6 week EA
D-Day 2: January 2013, discovered EA was a PA; there was another PA in 2010. All TT.
Goal = serenity.

Posts: 667 | Registered: Oct 2012
RidingHealingRd
♀ 33867
Member # 33867
Default  Posted: 10:39 PM, July 19th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

When I was angry and fighting with my WH he would not get defensive.

I honestly do not know how he maintained his composure other than to say that he genuinely believed that he caused the mess, he understood the depth of my pain, and knew that he was responsible for fixing it. He also understood that my anger was masking the horrible pain he caused. Rather than get defensive he would often respond with, "I deserve it"

I can't tell you how many times I would end my anger/rage by saying, "and if you don't like life now then get the f&*K out"

He knew for certain that I was not going to put up with any crap and that I would call him out on it. That alone probably kept him quiet.

"do you really think you can ever forgive me after all i have done?

he talked about starting over with a clean slate

he doesn't want to spend the next 10 years after all of his hard work to earn my trust only to have me turn around and ask him about him cheating with the pilates instructor. he said no one deserves that.

^^^Really, this is what HE wants. Right now he should forget about what he wants and concentrate on making it up to you; fixing his mess.

I can only imagine how difficult it must be to deal with the intense anger of a BS and never lose it. My WH, during calm discussions, would sometimes tell me that as much as he wanted to remain in the M he was fearful that his staying was not helping. He did not want to give up and continued to try.

You may want to talk to your WH, when you are not angry, and explain to him the importance of not getting defensive during those outburst as it only makes things worse.

He really needs to understand that it is not about him right now, it's about what he can do to show you how much he loves you, how much he wants to rebuild the M, how deeply sorry he is for the poor choices he made, how much he wants to regain your trust, how you/your son are his #1 priority.

Has he read/researched healing from an affair? Has he read the book How to Help your spouse heal from your affair?

[This message edited by RidingHealingRd at 10:41 PM, July 19th (Friday)]


ME: 54 BS
HIM: 61 WH
Married: 28 years
D'Day: 10/29/10
in R 4 years and it's working but he is putting 200% into it (as he should) to make it right again.

The truth hurts, but I have never seen it cause the pain that lies do.


Posts: 2157 | Registered: Nov 2011
sri624
♀ 33956
Member # 33956
Default  Posted: 12:55 AM, July 20th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

thanks you guys...i appreciate the advice. yeah, he has read, gone to ic, so he knows exactly what he needs to do...

we did end up talking rationally and calmly tonight.

riding, i told him exactly what i needed...that it wasnt about HIM...it is about my healing. he agreed.

he asked if i could give him some hope...some hope that we are making progress....that i will be able to forgive him someday.
he said he feels hopeless and doesnt know what to say to me when i get into a rage.

honestly...i guess i fear that when i trigger, i have to go through everything he did...every detail...and i get so mad...that i could hurt him...i just go crazy with anger. i do. and i want him to feel my pain...and i want to repeat everythign to make sure he HEARD me, loud and clear. yes, i have said the same things in my rage over and over...but it just makes me furious all over again.

and he just sits there...and doesnt say anything. and when he starts to get defensive when he finally does talk, i go ballistic.

always ending the fight with if he doesnt like it, he can get the fuck out.

he asked me tonight is there was a more constructive, progressive way we could address my triggers....

honestly, i dont know....

he's doing everything from the HL...but when i trigger, i get so mad...so furious....i just want to scratch his eyes out!!


BS (41):(Former Doormat)
WS (39):(Busted Cheater)
Married: 10 years, 3 kids under 5
DD1: 10/11 PA/EA with pilates instructor/former stripper.
DD2: 10/12 False r, cheating with other women, online dating,Substance abuse issues.
R:Last chance

Posts: 1039 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: Alabama
DixieD
♀ 33457
Member # 33457
Default  Posted: 10:45 AM, July 20th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

There were times R has been sort of like RidingHealingRd described for us. I don't know how my H did it, because I'm not sure I could have. Getting defensive just made things worse and it was there before he really 'got it'. He was determined because he knew deep down he had caused so much pain and sorrow. He understood my anger was linked to my pain.

But there came a time when he had to do this for himself. He couldn't help me unless he was stronger and healthier. He wanted to fix himself for himself and not just me or us. We talked about a lot of things. He wasn't looking for kudos or a forgiveness cookie. He was doing it because he wanted to be a better person regardless. I respected that.

he asked if i could give him some hope...some hope that we are making progress....that i will be able to forgive him someday.

I can understand that, everyone needs some hope, and at times things seem hopeless. Like RHR said my husband also wondered at times if him being around was helping me or hurting me. He wasn't looking at it from his standpoint. If your husband is doing things to get your forgiveness, he is working towards the wrong goal IMO.

I honestly wonder how much of this is doing it because he wants to vs you are forcing him to (like going to IC or reading) vs if he does it maybe you won't stay mad at him? If he's not doing it because he wants to 100% for himself first - including the work on addictions - then he is setting himself up for failure IMO.

I had terrible rage, it was scary, and I didn't want to stay that way. It was a problem I wanted to fix. I tried EMDR therapy and that helped me a lot. What are you doing to help yourself heal at this point?

[This message edited by DixieDevastated at 11:09 AM, July 20th (Saturday)]


Growing forward

Posts: 1767 | Registered: Sep 2011
sri624
♀ 33956
Member # 33956
Default  Posted: 4:22 PM, July 20th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It seems like what happens is he will get defensive...i will go in a rage...and then after a few hours..we calm down.

He says that he will do anything to help me heal. When i bring up things like..."I cant believe that u had unprotected sex with her..a former stripper fro$ czech..in this country a few years...did u think u were the only one? Didnt u think about AIDS? But no, u believed her like an idiot...thought she was clean and all our lives at risk. What a fool."

Or i will say..."Who does that? Sneaks out at night while me and baby r sleep to have sex with a whore u met on the internet. Did u think u were cool? The man? And look at u...ur confidant ended up silling the beans and telling me everything. Bet u didnt think that would happen did you?"

Things like that..i get so mad.

He sits there most times. I am not sure what he can do when i am talking like this....be quiet is the best. I just want to punch him at that moment.

To heal myself, i am in ic, and i read a lot. I talk to him...and "get it out" which i didnt do before.


BS (41):(Former Doormat)
WS (39):(Busted Cheater)
Married: 10 years, 3 kids under 5
DD1: 10/11 PA/EA with pilates instructor/former stripper.
DD2: 10/12 False r, cheating with other women, online dating,Substance abuse issues.
R:Last chance

Posts: 1039 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: Alabama
RidingHealingRd
♀ 33867
Member # 33867
Default  Posted: 4:33 PM, July 20th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I completely relate to that level of anger/rage and while in the midst of it nothing seemed to calm me.

When you have a WS who is 100% remorseful and committed to fixing things then I do think it is very important to acknowledge the effort.

They do need that hope that what they are doing is helping. Much later in R I found it in me to let my WH know that he was doing a good job at fixing things. I told him that despite my rage I did feel like life was getting easier.

My dday was 10/2010 and I know that my anger and rage lasted until 10/2012. A long time I know, but I just had to let it run its course.

Something happened 10/2012 (not sure what) and I remember making a conscious decision to stop the anger...after two years I was done with it. I honestly did not want to live like that and my M would not benefit from it.

Sometimes I think that I would rage out of control as a test for my WH. Would he take it or bail? As if this was a reflection of how much he really cared. I tested him often!

After 2 years of throwing crap in his face I finally accepted that he was extremely sorry, that he really did wish he could take it all back, and that he did love me.

The one thing that I did remind my WH of was that recovery was going to take a very long time for me, that I was not going to be nice about it, and that ultimately I didn't give a shit if he stayed or left. Today, I am glad that he stayed (I hate saying that, but it is the truth).



ME: 54 BS
HIM: 61 WH
Married: 28 years
D'Day: 10/29/10
in R 4 years and it's working but he is putting 200% into it (as he should) to make it right again.

The truth hurts, but I have never seen it cause the pain that lies do.


Posts: 2157 | Registered: Nov 2011
Wonderingwhy11
♀ 34782
Member # 34782
Default  Posted: 4:00 PM, July 21st (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sri - I am doing this same dance. I wish I knew how to resolve this without ending up in a fight. I think it takes the WS to admit to themselves they are not trust worthy and need to show understanding when BS questions their behavior.

he started to say things like...."do you really think you can ever forgive me after all i have done?" he talked about starting over with a clean slate. how he knows it would be easier for me to start over too. he says that it is difficult to be reminded everyday of all the horrible things he did when he is trying so hard to be a better man...a sober man.

My WS says the same thing. Makes me feel he is only committed so much because he believes I will not forgive him and will eventually tell him to leave. This thinking is not helpful. I try to explain this. I do get WS tired of hearing about the A daily but I can't help but think they caused this and should show more compassion for BS feelings. I don't think using the A to make them feel guilty or use the A to control is healthy. But I don't think it is healthy for you to stifle your emotions. It is a fine line when to talk about the A and emotions and when to just tell yourself - not today.

he told me also that he doesnt want to spend the next 10 years after all of his hard work to earn my trust only to have me turn around and ask him about him cheating with the pilates instructor. he said no one deserves that.

My WS says the same. Again doesn't make me feel better. This is the risk WS and BS takes when deciding to R. At any time someone could say sorry this is not working. My struggle is I know what WS is capable of.

becasue for 8 months he has been good...i am suppose to "move on?"

Heard this as well. So you are supposed to forget about years of not so good behavior because for 8 months he has been good? I think you should acknowledge his changes but also tell him you need more time of this better path or whatever is you need from him. Time will tell if he can do his part and he should honor that.




Me BW - 46
Him WH - 53
Together 23 yrs, Married 18
DDay August 2011
2 kids - 13 and 15

Gotta love the life that we livin'


Posts: 376 | Registered: Feb 2012
sri624
♀ 33956
Member # 33956
Default  Posted: 4:46 PM, July 21st (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

thank you for replying.

this is all so hard, isnt it? i am not sure what i am going to do at this point.

i do have to share my feelings...

am i required to share them with him in a constructive manner?


BS (41):(Former Doormat)
WS (39):(Busted Cheater)
Married: 10 years, 3 kids under 5
DD1: 10/11 PA/EA with pilates instructor/former stripper.
DD2: 10/12 False r, cheating with other women, online dating,Substance abuse issues.
R:Last chance

Posts: 1039 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: Alabama
womaninflux
♀ 39667
Member # 39667
Default  Posted: 5:07 PM, July 21st (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Re: constructive manner...kinda, yeah! Otherwise you are just bringing yourself down to a lower level. I hear you...I want to hit below the belt, too, and not be "nice" because I have been betrayed and it sucks. But being a jerk to a jerk is just not the way to move in the direction of anything positive.

There is a woman who wrote a book called "Take the High Road, There's Always Less Traffic" in response to her DH having an affair and their subsequent D.

I think we as BS think if we don't act angry, the WS won't see the damage they did, won't realize the gravity of everything. I'm realizing that they do get it but you can't make them defensive about it. If your WH is like mine, they tend to skirt the issue you are discussing by throwing in something that they see you doing wrong. How effective is that for anyone? I know I am sounding rational right now...believe me I have done what you have done. I am no saint. But I also see that it's not productive and something I need to figure out.


BS - mid-40's
SAWH - mid 40's
Kids - 2 elementary school aged
Getting tons of therapy and trying to "work it out"

Posts: 910 | Registered: Jun 2013
Wonderingwhy11
♀ 34782
Member # 34782
Default  Posted: 5:53 PM, July 21st (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I wish I knew what the constructive manner conversation would be like. It seems WH thinks I should move forward and doesn't want to talk about the A. But he also doesn't want to talk about pre A marital problems as well. It seems we end up in a fight because he says something hurtful. It reminds me of our past when I would just drop the conversation. I feel this allowed him to walk all over me and not care about hurting me.


Me BW - 46
Him WH - 53
Together 23 yrs, Married 18
DDay August 2011
2 kids - 13 and 15

Gotta love the life that we livin'


Posts: 376 | Registered: Feb 2012
Topic Posts: 11

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