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wow it's been a while since I've been on here...

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PolyGal posted 8/4/2013 16:56 PM

My husband and I separated five years ago, it was a very painful experience, I spent a lot of time on this website and it was a tremendous help. It's been an interesting five years. I asked for a divorce about a year into the separation, and we ended up in counseling, started dating each other again, and about half a year after that we started our physical relationship again. Over the past year or so we started talking about moving back in with each other and resuming our married life.

About a week ago I found out that he is still lying to my face about who he is seeing.

Also with us considering moving back in with each other, I'm finding that we buried a lot of issues and didn't actually deal with them, so we've been trying to deal with the problems from years ago, and it hasn't been going well.

We have an open relationship, but even in the context of that I guess he still feels the need to lie and cheat even though our relationship is such that we both see other people, we're just honest about it. He can't even manage that.

So... I'm thinking divorce is our best option. I need a partner I can trust and who wants to be my partner, not someone who just wants to share resources but still lie to me and not consider me in the actions he takes.

Pippy posted 8/4/2013 17:11 PM

Like the old saying, "Fool me once, shame on you." Yes it's time to close the bakery. You deserve to be loved by someone who will cherish you and never cheat.

SBB posted 8/5/2013 03:57 AM

^^What Pippy said.

I'm so sorry you've had another DD. Have you confronted him?

I strongly suggest you read everything in the Healing Library - especially "Before you say R".

Whatever your relationship structure is he is still flat out lying to you.

Keep reading, keep posting.

PolyGal posted 8/5/2013 05:23 AM

Thanks... I haven't confronted him on this. I already know that he's going to take issue with how I found out, which was by checking his phone, just intuition telling me something was up. So I saw some details, hotel, names of the people, etc. At least I know they used protection because that was discussed (he texted them that he was running late to pick up condoms). So at least I know he was being safe per our agreements, but still not communicative, and while I didn't ask him about this incident I did ask what he was doing that night, and he said relaxing at home by himself. I don't bear any ill will towards this couple, I don't know them, and I don't know if they knew he was breaking boundaries, how he met them, etc.

I haven't been with him physically since I found out, though we haven't had much of an opportunity anyway.

We're currently in high discussion mode about our relationship, as I mentioned we haven't really dealt with our old issues and I figured it would be asking for disaster to move with each other again with the issues unresolved. I think we probably have enough other issues that can justify the divorce without having to confront this. And I'm feeling much less willing to work through those other issues (which would be surmountable if we both wanted to stay married, mostly communication issues, some logistical stuff, trying to figure out if we want kids... so glad we don't have kids, I can't imagine what people with kids have to go through for these things). Unfortunately he is so conflict avoidant that he doesn't want to deal with those issues, and currently isn't talking to me because our previous talk didn't end well (going on four days without him responding to me, he knows when I'm going to counseling so maybe he'll show up? who knows)... though that is his pattern. Of course that talk was after he had met with that couple, and I knew about it and didn't mention it, but did ask some leading but nonobvious questions that would have given him the opportunity to disclose without getting in trouble. Just basically reminding him that I'm cool with whatever as long as I know about it, directly asking him what his current arrangements are as I wasn't sure about a few people, asking if there was anything new going on, etc. Also that is when I asked what he was doing that particular night, though it was later in the conversation so the context was separate, it was more in the context of if he had visited with his parents recently or seen his other girlfriend (that I know about and am cool with) recently. Anyway when dealing with difficult topics he has to spend a lot of time processing. That's ok, while he's processing, I'm strategizing. The main thing I'm concerned about at this point is the house, I want to make sure that he'll refinance it in his name only, and I have to keep things going nicely so that he'll do this, otherwise I'm at risk of him screwing my credit down the road. I don't know if that's sad or not, that I'm more concerned about my credit at this point than my marriage.

I think in the interest of keeping things civil and productive, I'm going to hold on to this. He's going to be way more focused on me looking at his phone than his failure to be honest with me, and that might hurt the amicability of the divorce process. And since I don't see our continuing marriage as a viable option anymore, and am not terribly interested in reconciliating further at this point, I don't feel obligated to disclose my snooping.

SBB posted 8/5/2013 05:55 AM

What is your plan? Think it through.

You're going to wait until he refinances the house in his own name - is it currently in yours? Is there equity in it? What happens to that?

If he does refinance when will that happen and what happens when it does?

What happens in the in-between phase - do you sleep with him? Do you avoid him? Do you hold all these feelings in? Do you tolerate this stuff?

What happens if he won't refinance in his own name? What is the Plan B.

I myself don't have the fortitude to withstand this situation - especially once I've made a decision that I don't want to continue with the relationship. Australia doesn't really have the whole bad credit rating = your whole life is ruined thing going on so I find it hard to relate to.

My emotional wellbeing is (now) worth far more to me than financial security.

Its OK if this is the last straw - if all of it together is a dealbreaker. I just want to make sure you don't jump out of the fire pan and into the flame.

realitybites posted 8/5/2013 06:30 AM

Yeah I agree with the above ^^post^^.

You have worked on this relationship for awhile. And whether someone is in an open relationship or monogomous, you just want your partner to be totally open and honest with you.

Whether they lie about sleeping with someone else, or just lie about little things....I think you have to realise that the person you are with is just not mature enough to be in the relationship that YOU want. They like to sneak and lie, it is a part of who they are....and since you are saying that you have been working on this for 5 years I would say that it does not look like he wants to change what type of character he is for you.

I know its hard. Trust me. We so wish the person who we make love to and come home to at the end of the day can really be the "person" who makes us feel safe and secure. But its always shakey ground, always shifting. Never really truly solid ground.

Its that leaky boat analogy. A BS works frantictly to keep putting water in the sinking boat yet never knowing that the WS is throwing it back out behind your back.

At the end of the day do you feel safe with this person?

PolyGal posted 8/5/2013 12:30 PM

Thanks again.

The house... we bought it at the height of the US housing market, right before it crashed, and are underwater. The loan has both our names on it. When we separated, I moved out. He's been living in the house and paying the mortgage, I've been renting.

I have no desire to keep the house, underwater or not. It is bad memories for me, most of the time we lived there was in turmoil. Unfortunately he also doesn't want to keep the house. But since the house is underwater, our options are limited.

When we were talking about living together again, our plan was to refinance the old house, buy a new house, and rent out the old house until the principle left had lowered enough and the market recovered enough that we could sell it without having to come up with additional cash.

If we get divorced, my plan is buy my own house while prices and interest rates are still good. But the divorce is going to stall that. I'm not sure of the particulars yet. But I know sometimes one can't take on additional loans until a divorce is final if it's in progress, for example.

He's been dragging his feet on the refi in general, even through we're underwater there are programs to help with refinancing an underwater house post crash. And this is one of those big differences between us, because if I had been living it in that house it would have already been refinanced to a lower rate. He lives in the house and pays the mortgage so we agreed that he handles the refinance. But I guess it's too much paperwork for him to deal with and he still hasn't done it.

So... since he still hasn't done it, then he means he still can (quickly though... interest rates are going back up, programs to help these situations are possibly ending or drying up). And if we get divorced, then it makes sense for him to refi in his name only. I understand that is not uncommon in divorces, and it is the only way for me to get off the loan. And if I can't get off the loan, my ratios are such that I probably wouldn't qualify for a mortgage on my own.

Also, he doesn't really like the house, it's more work to move than to stay but he really doesn't want to be there either. So at some point he might just get tired of being there, and just leave, and possibly forclose, and that is my biggest fear.

I'm trying to sort out logistics in my brain. I guess they are as follows:

-bring up the proposal that we divorce on grounds irretrievably broken
- ask him to refinance the house
-do all the paperwork (can include that he must refi the house within x days of divorce being final, I understand that this is a common situation... though if he doesn't then I would have to take him to court to get it done, and also the mortgage company doesn't care if we divorce, I'm still responsible for the loan unless he refi's)
-If he does refi, get my prequalification as soon as both the refi is complete and the divorce is complete, and go house hunting
-If he does not refi, then cross my fingers and toes that he doesn't walk away from the house, see if I can prequalify on my own even with that house on my credit, and beg my mother to cosign for me if necessary
-if he walks away from the house, hopefully he'll give me a heads up so I can have an opportunity to refi in my name only or at least make payments, and I would try to rent it out to help with that

The in-between phase... I don't know. I might still sleep with him, but we're going back to condoms if we do (we dropped them a while back), and I'll continue to tolerate it (he's still with the OW from five years ago, one of the "issues" we haven't dealt with)

I think for me emotional and financial well-being are tied together pretty closely, when I'm facing difficult financial stuff I get very anxious, to the point of getting sick (stomach issues), and have had to call out from work for anxiety-related stuff in the past. The house issue has a potential to cause a lot of anxiety.

I don't think he's honest and open with me in general at this point. I feel safe to an extent, but not 100%. I would feel safer if we weren't financially tied, and I don't feel safe the way that I should as his wife. I feel safe as I would as a girlfriend. We have a long shared history together (I suppose many of us on these boards also do), and we've helped each other a lot through life.

I don't expect a perfect person, I just wish he weren't a liar. If we ignore all our crap, we have a pretty good relationship. If we could work through our crap, we would have a great relationship that was epically awesome. But he won't work through it, he is still bullshitting me, and I'm out of patience.

Anyway ultimately I think I can overlook everything if we weren't still married, and if I didn't get screwed on the house, which is frankly his only leverage over me, and the only way he can use it is to bring us both down.

realitybites posted 8/5/2013 14:18 PM

There is a big elephant in the room. So lets take one bite at a time.

The house.

How much is it worth in todays market? What is your loan amount? Don't let him answer it....why don't YOU get those numbers together on your own and figure out that basic number in todays market?

I would also double check (and sorry if I don't believe your husband is being truthful) exactly where the loan is at and if he really has been making payments.....because say the house is a big issue...and you say "he" has been paying the mortgage, and thats all fine and good but you are still on the hook for half of the debt and if it were me I would be on the phone with the bank or whoever to know exactly what "MY" position was with this whole financial issue.

The in-between phase... I don't know. I might still sleep with him, but we're going back to condoms if we do (we dropped them a while back), and I'll continue to tolerate it (he's still with the OW from five years ago, one of the "issues" we haven't dealt with)

This part^^^^ I don't even know what to tell you. But I would suggest finding a way to separate out your emotional from your financial so that you can get to a place where you can get out from where you are at with this house and all. If you ignore won't go away.

PolyGal posted 8/5/2013 15:04 PM

Good questions to think about.

I subscribe that credit reporting company that alerts you if you have a drop in credit score, etc. I have no late payments on my credit, so I have no reason to believe he isn't making payments or that the loan is not in good standing. My credit score is strong and considered very low risk.

I have recently (a few months ago) seen a mortgage statement, and it is consistent with what he tells me is going on.

The value of the house is slowly recovering, I'm familiar with its estimated value through zillow, so I'm aware of its approximate worth, what is left, how much we'd have to come up with to buy out from under it. It is possible to come up with some of that cash if I liquidate some stock at a loss, close out my retirement plan with a penalty, and borrow the rest from my mom. Basically it would be a pretty big problem to come up with half of the cash as I have most of it tied up in company stock and retirement plan. Most of his cash is liquid, in a savings account, but from what I know about it, it also wouldn't be enough.

If I were to buy my own house while still being liable for his house, I would buy small enough to be able to cover both mortgages if necessary. I have a good salary and a reasonably stable career, though there are no certainties in life. Of course that will be easier to handle if the house is refinanced at the lower rate. That really needs to be done, and he's been dragging his feet for well over a year.

What I don't have... I really don't have any information on hand about the mortgage, it all goes through him, though it's highly likely that I would just need to contact the bank and start some processing of verifying who I am in order to get that information. But I haven't yet done that.

I think that, despite our issues, my gut feeling is that we won't try to screw each other. I don't think he'll go after my retirement plan, I won't go after his savings, we both make approximately the same salary, I don't think this will get too messy... except for possibly the house. And I don't really think I can constructively confront that issue until we decide to divorce. Even if my mind is 90% made up, if he starts feeling too pressured, I think he will retaliate. The 10% chance of R at this point is if we go back to MC, are dealing constructively with issues, he stops shutting me out, and admits to his recent indiscretion. He knows when and where I'll be in counseling next, I guess it's up to him if he shows up.

Maybe I'm foolish but I still think we can save the relationship, even if we can't save the marriage.

[This message edited by PolyGal at 3:04 PM, August 5th (Monday)]

SBB posted 8/5/2013 20:41 PM

Maybe I'm foolish but I still think we can save the relationship, even if we can't save the marriage.

You do get that you're lying to him right now don't you? I get that you're trying to protect your financial future and he is living in, paying for and enjoying the asset that is the house but I don't see a whole lot of friendship in there.

You have better friends than this.

I you truly thought you wouldn't screw each other over and that you could maintain a friendship after this you would ask him to agree to remove you from the mortgage and deed today.

It is far too messy for me this way. I'd be getting my name off that deed/mortgage ASAP rather than keep up the deception on both sides for any longer than it needs to be.

I'm reminded of this quote:
Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.

ETA you need to talk to an L - whilst you're still married and not for ally's separated even if he does refinance in his own name you as the spouse are still liable for his debts.

[This message edited by StrongButBroken at 8:44 PM, August 5th (Monday)]

PolyGal posted 8/5/2013 21:34 PM

I get that I haven't disclosed that I looked at his phone and discovered that he met up with a couple in a hotel room... is that what you're referring to as me lying? If he asks me directly I will tell him what happened. The last time this happened (five years ago, dday) I did disclose right away that I had looked at his stuff. Sorry if I make it sound like we keep tons of secrets from each other. I don't. I can't speak for him. I have looked at his stuff three times in our very long history, the first two times I disclosed it within hours, this time I just don't think it's worth it at the moment. Call it self-preservation.I will probably ultimately disclose that I looked at his phone, but it would only be if we're planning to stay together and if he volunteers what I found on there. Otherwise there really isn't a marriage to save, and I don't see how I'm obligated to say anything to him.

Every relationship has issues. We have huge communication issues and some other issues. There are a lot of other things about the relationship that are great, and that is why I hope to maintain something pleasant out of this. We do really care for each other and we've really helped each other through life in a lot of ways. But yeah there are some messed up things about our relationship. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that probably almost everyone on these forums have something messed up about their relationships too, even if they are in R. This whole forum is about broken relationships.

I can't ask him to take me off the house until he is willing to talk to me again, he's all pissed off because our previous conversation didn't go well. I have a counseling appointment coming up, if he shows up I will bring it up then, if he does not I will contact him via email and let him know that I think its time to file.

Aside from the house, he basically has no other debts. I have student loans and car loan right now, which are in my name only and which I'll assume responsibility for as part of the D, though I suppose that I could try to take him to court to assume half of those each if I were trying to screw him over, but I'm not. I'm not really worried about debts other than the house. Neither of us have any credit card debt, at least nothing more than a grand or two. Oddly enough, he hates paying interest. I'm not sure how he fails to see what he has been throwing away on interest on the house for years, because he really, really hates paying interest. Which doesn't make any sense since he hasn't already started the refi. I still don't get why he didn't do this a year or two ago. That's a lot of interest!

I don't think that I can just remove my liability for the house, that it's that simple. I think that he has to agree to refi in his name only, and follow through with it. I guess worst case is that I ask for it as a condition of the D, he doesn't do it, then I have to take him to court if I still want it done bad enough, and I really don't want that much trouble. I really want us to keep it out of court and agree on everything. Really the house thing is the only area I anticipate problems. He doesn't really want to live in that house anymore, and I sure don't want to move back in. I think that is why I'm so worried about this one aspect of things, it's really expensive and neither of us want it. It makes more sense to me for him to take it since he's living there etc. ("enjoying" is a strong word, and since we're underwater it's a liability, not an asset). And of course it will make my life easier if he refis. But, it will mean that he is stuck with a house that he doesn't want, and I'll get out of it, and he might not refi just to feel like things are more fair, or something like that.

Bah, I guess I have to find a lawyer. But I'm really not to worried about the financial side of things, aside from the house. And we have no kids, which simplifies things greatly.

[This message edited by PolyGal at 9:35 PM, August 5th (Monday)]

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