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brokensmile322 posted 8/7/2013 09:03 AM

That is what my IC keeps asking me. I think many of you know that I do not believe that my WH's EA was not a PA. I am stuck on it, it seems, every few months.

Today, I am obsessing over vm messages I heard back in the day from OW where she says "Hey, it's me." Only thing I could find and definitely points to too much of a comfort level between the two of them.

My WH won't admit to anything more than that he got too close to her and that nothing emotional or physical happened. This is why we are also stuck because he does not really even see what happened as an EA because they never discussed feelings of any kind.

If I am honest with myself, I am not sure I would admit to anything if I were him either. He KNOWS that I would be outta here before the last word left his lips. I guess I haven't made it safe for him to be truthful. (I've read a ton about that and I didn't exactly handle dday and subsequent questioning as I should have.)

Recently, after this discussion for the 100th time, my WH said yet again that nothing happened etc..., and I asked him if he had denied it to begin with and now he just finds himself too far down the rabbit hole of lies to be honest. This is what I believe.

WH has contacted a person about doing a polygraph. The polygraph comes up whenever my WH feels like he is in a no win situation which is whenever I keep going back to my doubt about his story. He is angry about it and gets angry that he would have to be strung up like a common criminal to prove to me that nothing physical happened. The scheduling has been left that he is to email a week before he wants to schedule it. This is per the polygrapher. I have seen the email stream.

My husband is on extensive travel the next few weeks so really, he would be emailing probably next week if he actually will. Part of me thinks he has gone this far but will not actually go through with it. We get along fine in between my bouts of doubt. Whenever we get along, its as if my WH forgets that I still doubt him. We are currently getting along and I have not mentioned my doubt yet again, so I question whether he is thinking of emailing the polygrapher at this time. I will not ask. I want this to come from him. And I am not even sure a polygraph is the answer. It seems if I have to go that far, then our foundation is broken- nothing solid to build on.

This is no way to be in a marriage at all. My IC has asked me why making the distinction between an EA or a PA is important. Ummmm duh? And I guess at this point, aside from the sex, it would be about the lying this whole time.

I guess the truth is that it just comes down to trust. I don't trust that what he said happened is actually what happened.

I don't think it is still going on or underground. The OW was very persistent after he told her that their relationship got too close and comfortable. She demonstrates narcissistic attributes according to my IC. I often wonder if it had been PA, I think she would have been more bat shit crazy.

Obviously, to answer my own question, yes it does matter to me. My IC keeps asking me what I want. She says if I want to try to move on with my WH, then I will have to trust what he says happened. I have no other choice. Not trusting what he says will keep me stuck in the past. She does ask me if this is a deal breaker for me. SOmething I have also posted about many, many times, even from the beginning.

I just don't know what to do. Can you R with someone when you don't believe their story? Am I projecting my own thoughts and feelings onto their relationship and saying that it had to be more? How do I move forward? I want to be done with this but I don't know how.

And running away seems the most logical way to be done with it. It is what I do whenever someone hurts me. I push them away and move on. I guess I do not know how to forgive people.

My IC leaves me with the same thing time and time again. I am getting nowhere because I am stuck.

I can choose to believe what he says and start to build from today, look at what he is doing today and choose each day to trust him moving forward.

Or I can decide that this was a deal breaker. That I do not believe him. That I cannot trust him and begin the process to move on without him.

When I read on here it seems people have trouble moving forward when they don't trust their spouse about things happening in the future. I do trust what he is saying and doing NOW.

What I do not trust is what he says happened then. That is the past. What do I do with that? Am I the only one struggling with that?

rachelc posted 8/7/2013 09:15 AM

brokensmile: this is EXACTLY where I'm at. In fact, it woke me up last night.
Do I trust him now: kinda, I certainly don't think anything is going on with the OW, although NOTHING would surprise me, which is sad.
It's the way things have shaken out that we are like this. We thought we knew someone and turns out, we don't! And that shakes us to our very core.

Are you projecting? No!! I think your gut is telling you there is more.
I have no idea if I have all the truth. There is no way I do, considering he didn't confess and I had to catch him or ask OW what happened. This is tough stuff to recover from. It messes with your brain... and you start questioning and questioning.

Does it matter if you have the truth - absolutely. You need to know you're not crazy. You need to know you're not being manipulated and controlled into staying married. You need to know if you're married to someone who can carry out a lie for so long.

I get so pissed when people say, "does it really matter if he's being good now?" good grief!!

Hugs brokensmile, hugs!

forgivingnow posted 8/7/2013 09:24 AM

Your gut is still telling you that you need the truth. When you have the truth, even if it is horrible or seems unbearable, you no longer feel crazy, the anxiety goes away and you feel some peace.
You deserve honesty, to be loved and treated with respect.

brokensmile322 posted 8/7/2013 09:43 AM

So if I go down the "it's my gut talking" path....

what do I do with it? I still will never know. I looked. I could not find anything to prove anything PA. I could not find anything that was emotional either. He was either very good at covering his tracks or there was really nothing to find.

I am still left with the same options. What do I do?

rachelc posted 8/7/2013 11:12 AM

((brokensmile)) I so get it.

I'm a former wayward wife and I had to tell my husband I screwed two other guys (well one was a rape but still). You know the first thing he said: I knew there was something else. And this is after I kept the truth from him for a year... I controlled and manipulated him into staying married to me. SO UNFAIR to him..

I think some people can live with themselves for keeping the truth from those they love. I guess I watch closely to see if there is anything else he is lying about. I see how hard he prays in church. I still would not be surprised if anythign else happens or comes up.
If it does, I will leave. If I continue to feel unsafe I will leave.....

Hugs to you.

pewpewpew posted 8/7/2013 15:02 PM

I SO get this. Everything. Our stories are so very similar it's almost disturbing...

The only thing I can add is I did speak with OW. She backed up WHs claims and denied an A. For some odd reason I believed her. She may have lied as well, but I have no proof of anything happening.

I have times where I have my doubts. I obsess over the details. Possibly
It is my gut screaming there's more and not to ignore it.
I've gotten to the point I don't trust my gut anymore. I've become almost obsessive with thoughts/mind crap I wouldn't know truth from fiction.
I've made up so many different scenarios in my mind I forget what the facts are...

Does this make sense?

fallingquickly posted 8/7/2013 15:29 PM

Before I knew my STBXH was wayward I found a charge for women's clothes. I expected to receive them for Christmas. When I didn't, I questioned him. He came up with a story that didn't seem right. After DD#1 and DD#2 he still stuck to the story about the clothes. Finally, after tons of TT, he told me he had bought them for OW#3. Until he admitted that I felt crazy because I knew it just didn't feel right.

Some thoughts about this:

-He felt he had to stick with the lie after so long. I think because he has a problem with me being right about something. The worst was already out but he couldn't admit this.

-He continued to lie. I already knew about 5 OW but he couldn't tell me the truth about some clothes. Makes it difficult to believe the smallest thing.

-It's crazy making to feel something in your gut and have them say no. I never really believed him but also didn't trust my feelings.

My advice is to have him go through with the poly. My WH said he would take one but I didn't follow through. I wish I would have. If you do this you might be able to put away those feelings and move on.

In my case he continued hiding things that were unnecessary to hide and continued to lie. I finally had to give up.

pearlharbr posted 8/7/2013 16:56 PM

Of course it matters. If you're gut is telling you that there's more to the story then he should absolutely have the polygraph. A key tenet for R is trust but verify. He should be willing to prove to you that he's an open book and be happy to have a way to do this.

I'm dealing with a small version of this right now. I never believed H when he told me OW was never in his vehicle. IMO, that is a case of deciding whether or not it matters. In the long run, no. For me, knowing whether it was EA or PA is a BIG deal and a truth that you deserve.

catlover50 posted 8/7/2013 19:45 PM

I caught my H kissing his intern 17 years ago. Both of them denied that it had progressed any further. I threw him out, he got counseling, blah, blah, we reconciled.

11 years later he went down that path again. Dday 1 when I discovered the phone bill they both denied the PA. 18 months later when I got the anonymous letter he finally started telling the truth. I asked about the event 17 years before--yep, a PA.

If I had gotten the truth all those years ago perhaps we would have gotten to the root of his issues then. And we could have avoided the LTA. Plus I never did believe him and it was between us all those years.

My point is that I sure wish I had gotten the truth then. If I had known about polygraphs then I would have totally had him take one. He did take one this time (and passed).

He lied to me about this many, many times. Perhaps it made it easier to lie (and cheat) in the future.

It is possible that he is telling the truth. But you deserve to know. It matters if he gets away with lying to you, IMHO.

Good luck.

brokensmile322 posted 8/7/2013 20:55 PM

Thank you everyone for your posts. I truly appreiciate it. I appreciate everyone giving me insight and letting me know that what I am feeling is not that crazy at all.

I think WHY it matters for me is that I felt a disconnect with my WH at the time. He was distant, not interested in me, put me last on the totem pole, discounted my feelings etc... I felt it and it was real.

I also felt his attachment to the OW. I did not know the extent and really, if I had spied longer maybe I could have uncovered something. But I fell apart when I discovered he had lied to me about how close they had gotten, when I discovered that he had been deleting texts and when I discovered that he had spent time with her that he did not disclose.

I felt it and ^^this was real. He does acknowledge this, but he says that it was not what I think. Could it have gone that way, maybe, but that they never discussed feelings and he lied because I was bothered by her and he didn't want me to think something was going on.

In addition, he behaved wierdly when I had my dday. I confronted him outside while he was doing work. I broke down. Accused him. And he basically denied and kept on doing work. It was not how I would have responded. He says he was not going to chase after me because nothing was going on and he wasn't going to act nuts about the situation because it was not what I thought.

There are a few things like ^^this that I could write down that just do not make sense.

My IC has cautioned me that I cannot know how he 'should' react in any given situation. Because I find something strange does not make it true. Again, she brings me back to "What do I want". Where I say that I want a life with my WH. Then she qualifies that by saying then I must choose to believe what he says. There is no other choice.

And I guess for me, the reason it matters to me is that what I felt at that time, I want that feeling validated. I want to be able to say that I wasn't crazy and I wasn't wrong.

My IC has said that it sounds like the only answer I will accept is if it was a PA. She says that it seems no other answer will suffice.

And the thing is, my WH does say that he got too close to the OW. He says it was fueled by his having to do business there a lot. That the amount of time brought them closer, he assumed that they could be friends the way he has been with male coworkers. He did not realize it was wrong at the time. He knew I didn't like the friendship but he thought there was nothing wrong with it because it was innocent. To him, it was business with a bit of bantering. He says that all of this ^^ does validate what I was feeling at the time. He said that he saw after dday that it was a slippery slope. He did tell her that it got too casual. When she still tried to text stupid texts about non business stuff, he told her that they made him uncomfortable. He says that he has shut her down at every turn. He says that he has cut her out because it was a slippery slope. He says he wishes I could see that he did not mean to hurt me this way and that once he realized what was happening, he stopped-immediately.

I am rambling I know, but today is not a good day for me. Thank you everyone again. I feel better getting this off my chest!

RockyMtn posted 8/7/2013 21:07 PM

I've never been big on the gut thing. This is so whacky for all of us that our gut becomes distrustful. I can count as many times that my gut was dead wrong as it was dead right. I'm not anti-gut feeling - it was what lead me to look at his phone for the first time ever in our marriage - but I think it is more complicated.

I say get the poly. Pronto. I think he is a perfect candidate. There is just one major question. That's it. And its an easy yes or no. For folks who have a lot more questions or nuances, I think a poly can get tricky in the sense that it might not give them what they need. I think it will give you what you need. And his approach to the scheduling and the days leading up to the poly will be telling as well.

Myheartstillhurt posted 8/7/2013 21:09 PM

I see how you would want your husband to do some follow through with the poly on his own, but you are the one suffering with the unknown!

The poly will clear it up for you. Either he passes, or he doesn't. If he is willing, just make the appointment or insist it gets made. Many people here get "parking lot confessions" prior to going in.

This is for you and your sanity. You will know if you can believe your husband or not.

WoundedOpus posted 8/9/2013 07:24 AM

This is such a fresh and horrible topic for me right now, so I'll keep it short.

I always knew his EA was really a PA. Knew it. Just this week I had a freak out moment and for some reason it finally pushed him hard and far enough to confess. OMG, the pain I'm in right now is horrific.

I had always told myself that he continued the lie maybe because of all the emotional reasons...he has a lot of baggage and can't open up to anyone about anything, plus he knew it would be horrible for me to hear. Then there's the years he's been lying, very hard to choose to tell the truth when you've told the lie for over 5 years.

But you know what? It wasn't that nice or that complicated. The truth and details of the P side are WAY worse than I ever could have imagined. He didn't confess simply because do so would be so EMBARRASSING for him. What he would have to tell me was more awful than I was prepared for/could have prepared for, and he knew that. He knew I could live with it being P, it was quite another story though if I could live with the full truth of P side, and he wasn't willing to take a chance.

Now I have to live with the fact that he has put me through the worst hell of my life (worse than the actual A), just to save his own rear from being embarrassed, and taking a chance. There is just no comfort in that realization.

If he had confessed this all 5 years ago, the whole truth of PA, the details and the extent of it, would have been SO hard to overcome, but I might have. Now I have all of that AND the years and years and years of pure and utter hell that he calculatedly put me through to protect himself at my expense....I just don't know that we can recover....I know one thing, I wish like hell he'd been man enough, and been willing to fight for me and us hard enough, to take the risk!

HUGE *hugs* (((brokensmile322)))

brokensmile322 posted 8/9/2013 07:54 AM

Thank you everyone for your replies. I know deep down that it does matter. And if it does matter, I don't think there can be a future for me and WH.

I know that if I want to be with him I would have to accept what he says, but that is essentially rugsweeping, IMHO. Trying to move on with someone who is rugsweeping rarely works in the long term.

We had another discussion about it this AM. I asked him a few questions that have been bugging me. He was nice enough answering them. I honestly do not know why I ask them because I know he will never admit anything if there is anything to admit.

He did bring up the poly again and said he should just schedule it. Maybe he should?

We did touch a bit on his relationship with OW. I finally said that I do believe him now, but that I do not believe him about what he says happened then. That felt good to get off my chest. I don't think I ever worded it that way before.

He did end up angry again at the end of our talk. Again frustrated. I think the big thing is in how we define what happened. And for him, I think he has a strong need not to look like a bad guy to himself. Does that make sense? I think admitting anything about his feelings or intentions with this OW would blow his own view of himself out of the water.

I have an IC appt early next week. I really need it I think.

rachelc posted 8/9/2013 08:04 AM

And for him, I think he has a strong need not to look like a bad guy to himself. Does that make sense? I think admitting anything about his feelings or intentions with this OW would blow his own view of himself out of the water.

I think this is very difficult for some people. They say to themselves, "I'll behave and then it'll be ok." which is rugsweeping at the very least. Perhaps it was a short period of time, hell even a ONS when they acted out. Still, it crushed lives, changed the emotional nature of their marriage so it bears looking at, intensely. I wish people would realize that.

[This message edited by rachelc at 8:05 AM, August 9th (Friday)]

NeverAgain2013 posted 8/9/2013 08:43 AM

WH has contacted a person about doing a polygraph. The polygraph comes up whenever my WH feels like he is in a no win situation which is whenever I keep going back to my doubt about his story. He is angry about it and gets angry that he would have to be strung up like a common criminal to prove to me that nothing physical happened. The scheduling has been left that he is to email a week before he wants to schedule it. This is per the polygrapher. I have seen the email stream.

I can't stress this enough.

I think it would be foolish to do business with ANYONE your husband supposedly contacted - whether you saw the email stream between them or not. I wouldn't put it past your H to have put his feelers out to his friends and coworkers in the hopes that someone is a friend/brother/uncle of one of these poly guys and that maybe the results can be "skewed" for a few bucks.

I think you should find your OWN poly source and be in charge of making the appointment yourself, not your husband. You need to stop giving him so much control over what you need in order to start healing.

And quite honestly, it's too bad that he's offended at being strapped down and wired up. Too bad, so sad. And when the truth comes out (as it often does), the end will justify the means.

Lastly, stop letting him stall and keep putting this off. All that allows him to do is seek more ways to figure out how to beat a poly. His browser history probably has hundreds of hits for that very subject on it (but he's probably erased it).

Make that appt. with your OWN polygraph tester now. Broken, don't be surprised if the morning of the appt. he breaks down and confesses with a half truth in the living room or out by the car as you're both getting into it or right in the parking lot of the polygraph office before you go in for the test. That's what's commonly known as "the parking lot confession." That's when they realize the jig is up and they know they have to spill to you before a stranger humiliates them and makes them do it anyway. But usually this "confession" is AGAIN, only the bare minimum like you've gotten all along, but something they hadn't admitted before. It's still not going to be the whole truth.

A lot of people make the mistake of thinking they now know the truth and don't go through the poly, only to find out down the road that they've only been given a tidbit of the whole REAL story. So it's highly adviseable to STILL go through with the poly.

Otherwise, all you've got is his word, and unfortunately, that's gotten you nowhere.

sisoon posted 8/9/2013 14:17 PM

You wrote:

Can you R with someone when you don't believe their story?

Nope, you can't. This - not EA or PA - is the crux for you.

PA or EA doesn't matter - JMO, of course - because either is a giant betrayal bringing on excruciating grief, anger, and fear.

Telling the truth matters a whole lot. Accepting responsibility and acknowledging what one has done matters a whole lot. A WS cannot R unless she is truthful with herself and with her partner. (Today I'm using pronouns from my own - male - POV....)

A parent needs to make it safe for a kid to be truthful. IDK if you need to make it safe for your H, presumably an adult, to be truthful.

Have you considered a polygraph?

brokensmile322 posted 8/9/2013 15:36 PM


Very, very though provoking post....

So I guess what I am hearing you write is that it does not matter whether the A was an EA or a PA. What matters is that I don't believe what he is saying about the A.

And to answer your question, NO, I do not think I have made it safe for my WH to tell the truth. I think he is fearful that I would leave.

So after I have screwed this up, I am really not sure how you go about making it safe for a WS to be truthful.

And yes the polygraph is on the table. And the polygrapher my WS contacted is someone I contacted first and someone I had communication with several months prior to my husband. After my WH's frustration, he contacted him again and the future of it remains in WH's hands.

still-living posted 8/10/2013 07:51 AM

So after I have screwed this up, I am really not sure how you go about making it safe for a WS to be truthful.

It's hard to explain. I just knew my wife wasn't telling me the whole truth. I kept asking, reasking, but always in a calm manner. After she quit her job, she tested me by letting out some new significant TT after I had asked. I didn't react negatively, thanked her for telling me, and we talked about how nice it was letting it go, and I'm still here. The next day, bam! She told me the whole truth. She was a new person after she told me everything. She was free. Her IC was encouraging her to come clean too.

For me, the truth helped to assembly my puzzle. A lot of things came together and made sense, -the distance at times, the anger, her emotional roller coaster moments, those times when I felt I was going crazy, I was not. I was normal.

Also, telling the truth stripped away the intimacy they had. They had no more secrets between them. I wanted all intimacy, all the secrets. I wanted to know it all.

[This message edited by still-living at 7:53 AM, August 10th (Saturday)]

MrsDoubtfire posted 8/10/2013 07:54 AM

I am still left with the same options. What do I do?

Get him to take the poly asap.

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