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Newest Member: bob74 (46035)

User Topic: First post, finding it difficult here
ResoluteH
♂ 39673
Member # 39673
Stop  Posted: 12:27 AM, August 10th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My wife is a member of Surviving Infidelity, and she finds it very helpful and supportive. I joined, with her encouragement and support, hoping to find the same thing. Problem is, I haven't been able to open up here because I'm not sure I want her to read what I post. She says she won't read anything I post if I ask her not to, but that's not much help because I recently installed tracking software on my computer and told her I WANT her to check up on me. Although I don't think she has used it yet, if she does, she'll see my posts. To make me even more sensitive, a while back I joined Recovery Nation and was working through their process until one of my posts upset my wife. I'm no longer a member because I didn't want that to happen again. (Full disclosure is one thing, but working through one's own shit is entirely another and, in my opinion, not necessarily something that a wayward spouse should do in front of his betrayed spouse, or vice versa. After all, that's why we're both doing individual counseling in addition to joint counseling, and she'd never invite me to sit in on her individual counseling, with good reason.)

I'm open to suggestions from other waywards who have dealt with similar situations.


Resolute Husband

Posts: 38 | Registered: Jun 2013
c128hart
♂ 40174
Member # 40174
Default  Posted: 1:13 AM, August 10th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ResoluteH,
I know it can be difficult. I am going thru the same thing with my BS. Everyone says full disclosure is required. The only way is to tell her everything before you post it anywhere so if she does read your posts,its not the first time she is hearing it. Both of us can only hope that our BS's . Don't let their pain and anger and prevent the recovery we are seeking.

Posts: 10 | Registered: Aug 2013
SurprisinglyOkay
♀ 36684
Member # 36684
Default  Posted: 5:55 AM, August 10th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My BS and I are both on here. It has been a lifesaver for us both.

Part of my process of healing myself and our relationship has been opening up to my BS.
Making myself more vulnerable, sharing my triggers, posting here.
He wants me to be open about my thoughts and feelings.
He wants me to share with him.
It's something I've never done with anyone. Ever.
Some of this has been painful, but growth has come out of it too.
It took a while and has had it's own evolution as time has passed.


If she says she won't read your posts, trust her.

My BS and I never said that we wouldn't read each others posts. Some of the stuff I've read was painful, really fucking painful, to read.
It gave me some insight into how he was feeling. Nothing either of us read was so bad that we broke apart.


Oh and welcome to SI. This really is an amazing place


FWS me 37 (recovering addict)
BS him 40 AFrayedKnot
Together 7 years
2 children


"Your secrets keep you sick"


Posts: 1153 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: 221B
Aubrie
♀ 33886
Member # 33886
Default  Posted: 9:09 AM, August 10th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I found SI 4 days after Dday. Told QS about it immediately. He was like, "Meh, whatever." Didn't mean anything to him. He isn't a forum kind of guy.

As time progressed, he started coming here more often. I would see the SI browser left open. I knew he was here, but I didn't know what he was reading. Was he in the WS forum? What if he read all my stuff and saw me floundering around, trying to find my way? What if he read something that hurt him? What would happen?

I finally got up the nerve to talk to him about it. Asked if he read WS and if he read my posts. He did. He asked how I felt about him reading my posts. I was conflicted. I wanted to be open and honest with him, but I didn't want to post things if I knew they would hurt him.

We worked out a deal. If I posted a topic and he saw my thread title in the forum, he would ask, "Is it safe?" Depending on what I was working thru, I would say yes or "give me a couple days please?" He respected that, no matter how curious he was. It gave me time to process and work thru things.

My husband has read every single one of my threads to date. We're 21 months in and doing pretty good. His reading my threads has sometimes been very painful for him. But in the long run, it's worked wonders for our recovery and sparked some pretty interesting conversations between us.

[This message edited by Aubrie84 at 9:10 AM, August 10th (Saturday)]


Me - FWW * Him - QuietStand

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." - J. Wayne


Posts: 6531 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: South, Y'all!
Card
♂ 23667
Member # 23667
Default  Posted: 9:19 AM, August 10th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi RH,

Glad you're taking the time to ask questions, it does help.

You said;

To make me even more sensitive, a while back I joined Recovery Nation and was working through their process until one of my posts upset my wife. I'm no longer a member because I didn't want that to happen again.

Here's something to think about.... You are going to have a marriage that just limps along if you don't seek out the support and the answers you need for recovery. You stopped posting on RN because YOU were uncomfortable with her reactions to what you shared. If you examine your motives I'd bet you'd find that you stopped because of how it ultimately made YOU feel.

My wife and I posted together on forums throughout our recovery process, she had keyloggers on my computers too. Early on, I was often afraid that what I would post would come back and bite me in the ass. Do you see what I just said? I was worried about how it would affect ME. Yes, I didn't want to hurt her, but ultimately, I was worried about how it would affect me.....

The work around; I discussed with her that there would be times that I may share something she may disapprove of me sharing.... We agreed that she could have me edit those comments out anytime she asked and I'd edit them with no questions/comments asked. We also agreed that if we were about to vent (share frustration to the max) that we would preface the post with a "note to my spouse, Please don't read this vent". This worked for us.
There are other ways to create safe posting zones for couples, but you need to brainstorm ways for it to work for YOUR marriage.
Just don't use the fear as a way to avoid forums that may help you recover.
Be open and honest about all the scenarios AHEAD of time and you'll avoid the pitfalls that may occur....


WH (me)
BS (her)

D-Days April - Oct. 2007 Recovery started Nov. 2007

"Found Myself", I was right there in my shoes all along!
Search for self called off!

Why Repentance Is Necessary? Because Undeserved Mercy Empowers Entitlement/Sin


Posts: 570 | Registered: Apr 2009
NoGoodUsername
♂ 40181
Member # 40181
Default  Posted: 5:41 PM, August 10th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ResoluteH,

welcome. I'm new here too and trying to figure out what to share in the forums.

My own position is not so much whether she will see what I post; she already has my accounts and usernames and is the one that pointed me to SI.

My own difficulties are about the walls and windows model from Dr. Glass' work. Getting support from people outside of the marriage feels like dangerous territory but I see other people do it safely here every day. I'm still looking for the right answer on this.

One thing that I can tell you for sure, you will eventually make a post that will upset your wife. You will discuss something in person that will upset her. You will perform some action that will upset her. That is part of the life that we have created in committing infidelity. The question that we need to address within ourselves is how we're going to face that.

I'm on the verge of thread jacking here, so I'm going to stop.
Try to be strong on this and stick with the hard work. Good luck.


Me: WH
Her: BW
Dday 7/11/13
"May you be protected from hearts that are not humble, tongues that are not wise and eyes that have forgotten how to cry."

Posts: 261 | Registered: Aug 2013
ResoluteH
♂ 39673
Member # 39673
Default  Posted: 12:29 AM, August 11th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Card,

You wrote,

You stopped posting on RN because YOU were uncomfortable with her reactions to what you shared. If you examine your motives I'd bet you'd find that you stopped because of how it ultimately made YOU feel.

Of course. Isn't that obvious? As I mentioned, I am (and was) in the process of working through my own shit, and having someone -- pretty much anyone, let alone someone who with a lot of anger, no matter how justified -- throw more more shit at you while you're doing it is counterproductive. There's a reason that most of us should be in individual counseling as well as joint counseling . . . because we have our own individual issues. . . . I'd never ask my wife to sit in on my individual counseling sessions.


Resolute Husband

Posts: 38 | Registered: Jun 2013
ResoluteH
♂ 39673
Member # 39673
Default  Posted: 12:39 AM, August 11th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

NoGoodUsername,

You wrote,

One thing that I can tell you for sure, you will eventually make a post that will upset your wife. You will discuss something in person that will upset her. You will perform some action that will upset her. That is part of the life that we have created in committing infidelity. The question that we need to address within ourselves is how we're going to face that.

Thanks. Excellent perspective.

P.S. Love the username.


Resolute Husband

Posts: 38 | Registered: Jun 2013
Card
♂ 23667
Member # 23667
Default  Posted: 8:56 AM, August 11th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

RH,

I'd never ask my wife to sit in on my individual counseling sessions.

I wanted recovery so much so that I was willing to let my wife know 'all' of me. I was willing to let her hear any answers she wanted to know about. I realized my previous life of 'keeping secrets' kept our marriage in an unhealthy place. And that's not the marriage either of us wanted back.

I answered every question she had! Even when I knew it could possibly make her throw me out again, I spoke truth and hid nothing from her.

I love the marriage I have today. It is filled with openness and honesty. There are no more secrets, nor have there been since recovery began.....

From the beginning, I'd willing invite her to sit in on IC.....

I guess for me, It's the difference of being 'involved' in recovery and being 'committed' to recovery.

“The difference between 'involvement' and 'commitment' is like an eggs-and-ham breakfast: the chicken was 'involved' - the pig was 'committed'.”

I became a pig instead of always being a chicken. :0


WH (me)
BS (her)

D-Days April - Oct. 2007 Recovery started Nov. 2007

"Found Myself", I was right there in my shoes all along!
Search for self called off!

Why Repentance Is Necessary? Because Undeserved Mercy Empowers Entitlement/Sin


Posts: 570 | Registered: Apr 2009
uncertainone
♀ 28108
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 1:05 PM, August 11th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I guess for me, It's the difference of being 'involved' in recovery and being 'committed' to recovery.

That's not what he's saying at all. He's talking about working through issues without inflicting that searching and struggle on someone that can least shoulder his pain. Surely you can understand that, right? It's called carrying your own water.

You see that here. Any challenge and failure to handle that well is sometimes met with, "oh boo hoo. Suck it up. Rub some dirt on it and deal. You created this mess".

It's this really odd reaction of sensing blood and getting all hyphy. This isn't competitive remorse, you know. We struggle. We hurt. We have periods of incredible weakness and fear. Talking to someone that can help direct us in a productive direction can be very valuable. Doubtful its gonna be the person you just ran over, backed up, ran over again.

Resolute, working on your shit individually is honestly the only way one can do it, in my view. Getting dirty and struggling with what you find can be compromised when you're trying to dress up a pig or shield another from pain.

Yeah transparency is crucial. I do read on here couples that the WS gives authorization for the other spouse to talk to the councelor. They just nullified the whole deal, to me. I don't care how honest you're being, if you feel you're being bugged doubt you'd reveal all. Especially to someone that you want the best possible outcome with.

Would you share the meltdown your design team had the when they discovered at certain temperatures the engine explodes, isolated the issue, and fixed it, during a sales pitch? Isn't that what can happen while working through this shit at least initially even a tiny bit? Selling someone on you and your changes?

Don't be afraid to go "there". "There" is where it all starts.

[This message edited by uncertainone at 1:07 PM, August 11th (Sunday)]


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
ResoluteH
♂ 39673
Member # 39673
Default  Posted: 2:49 PM, August 11th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks, uncertainone. You hit the nail on the head. Actually, you hit several nails on the head.

One of the things I've struggled with is shame, and I finally realized (realized at some deep level, not just intellectually) that my shame got in the way of my ability to "care for my wife's hurt" (to use the words of our very wise counselor). So the way for me to be committed to recovery was to figure out how to deal with that shame, and the faster I could do it, the better for my wife and for my marriage. So let's say my wife sat in on my individual counseling session and, afterwards, attacked me for some of the things I said in the session, triggering my shame again (yes, wayward spouses have triggers, too), completely undoing all the progress I made in that counseling session. I'd argue that I would not have been at all committed to recovery but (perhaps) committed to getting back on this board to brag about how transparent I was being. . . . while in fact, I would be sabotaging the recovery. Is that "committed to recovery"? Nope, not for me. I'd have to call BS on myself.

We do what works. . . . recovery is not a religion with degrees of doctrinal correctness. It is a very practical, pragmatic process, and whatever I can do to improve my own ability to care for my wife's hurt is a good thing. . . . with all the contrary advice saying I'm doing it wrong be damned.

[This message edited by ResoluteH at 3:01 PM, August 11th (Sunday)]


Resolute Husband

Posts: 38 | Registered: Jun 2013
ResoluteH
♂ 39673
Member # 39673
Default  Posted: 5:18 PM, August 11th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

To NoGoodUsername --

Is that last sentence I wrote an attitude you might be able to take toward Dr. Glass's advice? I'm just asking without presuming to know what might work for you.


Resolute Husband

Posts: 38 | Registered: Jun 2013
Card
♂ 23667
Member # 23667
Default  Posted: 6:27 PM, August 11th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I guess for me, It's the difference of being 'involved' in recovery and being 'committed' to recovery.

That's not what he's saying at all. He's talking about working through issues without inflicting that searching and struggle on someone that can least shoulder his pain. Surely you can understand that, right? It's called carrying your own water.

Of course I get it!

I would never endorse pushing the load to another. Quite to the contrary, I believe it's the WS's responsibility to carry the load, even all the load if necessary, until the BS is ready to join in.

And just because I was willing to share everything, doesn't mean my BS wanted to know it all. She was just thrilled to know I was willing after lying and keeping so many secrets.

If someone wants to 'work on their own shit' in secret, so be it. I do have the right to share that I disagree with that approach though.....

Yeah transparency is crucial. I do read on here couples that the WS gives authorization for the other spouse to talk to the councelor. They just nullified the whole deal, to me. I don't care how honest you're being, if you feel you're being bugged doubt you'd reveal all. Especially to someone that you want the best possible outcome with.

Yes you're allowed to have your doubts. Believe it or not though, people are capable of intimate honesty, especially after such a traumatic event as betrayal.

ResoluteH, I'm sorry if you think I want you to dump on your wife..... That's not what I'm saying at all.

I can only share my story though. I can't give away some one else's stuff. For some I can help, for others, not so much.. If you find that you don't want to use another's ideas, just blow by the posts and find what works.

Best wishes....

[This message edited by Card at 6:30 PM, August 11th (Sunday)]


WH (me)
BS (her)

D-Days April - Oct. 2007 Recovery started Nov. 2007

"Found Myself", I was right there in my shoes all along!
Search for self called off!

Why Repentance Is Necessary? Because Undeserved Mercy Empowers Entitlement/Sin


Posts: 570 | Registered: Apr 2009
Rebuilder2
♂ 39510
Member # 39510
Default  Posted: 7:35 PM, August 11th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hello ResoluteH,

Excellent to have heard your voice here.

Would you agree that people process things in different manners and at different speeds? My dear wife LA44 'knows' her feelings pretty much instantly in personal matters. This is a strong attribute of hers which I love, but do not possess. Myself, I need to think, weigh things, consider notions carefully; I tend to think en route to feeling. It's like our wiring is completely different. Does that sound familiar to you?

For that reason I relate to your quandary regarding getting advice, dialoguing and (if I understood you correctly) wanting or needing time to work some things out before a productive discussion can take place. If I try to 'talk through' my slow-to-bake ideas, history has shown that the result falls flat ( a metaphor for the chefs among us ). Mentally it's like I have a number of thoughts to present to myself, I consider them, try to figure things out when none necessarily represent what I truly feel. Voicing those musings 'early on' can have a strongly negative - and perhaps unnecessarily painful - impact on the recipient. Especially when the recipient is a loved one who has experienced betrayal at your/our hands.

I totally agree that pragmatism has an important place here. You are 2 individuals; you aren't a chapter in a nice, tidy self-help book. In the same breath that you may hope your partner gets sage advice, a welcome shoulder, a willing trusted friend to hear her out privately, there is a place for you to do your searching prior to voicing what you feel. I think this is critical.

Yes there will be times (probably many) where you bare your emotions and deepest feelings to her and the initial result will evoke a great deal of pain. (By the way, my experience with this is that it has ALWAYS resulted in something better for each of us) But, coming to one who has been hurt with partially formed ideas, without thought beforehand has just as certainly been a detractor for us.

Keep at it and I would support you seeking counsel both privately and with your partner. I have no friend around with whom I can speak on this topic. I wish I did sometimes to help me with my clarity and maybe give me better strength to keep rebuilding with the betrayed and wonderful LA44 whom I love so much.

All the best to you and your partner for a tomorrow better than all of your yesterdays.


Posts: 4 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: Canada
NoGoodUsername
♂ 40181
Member # 40181
Default  Posted: 10:01 PM, August 11th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ResoluteH,

in regard to your note-

"We do what works. . . . recovery is not a religion with degrees of doctrinal correctness. It is a very practical, pragmatic process, and whatever I can do to improve my own ability to care for my wife's hurt is a good thing. . . . with all the contrary advice saying I'm doing it wrong be damned."


Right now, I'm too much of a mess to say anything rational about applying that to anything that Dr. Glass had to say, but I sure do appreciate the sentiment in your words.

Warmly,
NGU


Me: WH
Her: BW
Dday 7/11/13
"May you be protected from hearts that are not humble, tongues that are not wise and eyes that have forgotten how to cry."

Posts: 261 | Registered: Aug 2013
Tesseract
♂ 39624
Member # 39624
Default  Posted: 11:10 PM, August 11th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Considering my day, I'm falling along Card's side of this line. I think it may well vary from couple to couple, but in my experience more information is almost always a good thing.

A betrayers, we owe it to our spouses to give them a clear picture of where we are. Someone made the analogy of a sales pitch, but I don't think that's accurate. That would seem to imply a level of pomp and presentation that I feel is perhaps inappropriate under the circumstances of infidelity at best and deceitful at worst.

I feel it shows an unwillingness to make yourself vulnerable to your betrayed spouse. I have a very, very hard time with this. I've recently had an object lesson in why this is a Big. Bad. Thing.

In Dr. Glass' terminology, this would be putting up a barrier between yourself and your spouse. By only showing them the end result you're refusing them knowledge that they deserve in formulating their responses and decisions. You're cutting a part of yourself off from them. It may not be a pretty part, but here we are on SI. They know that there are ugly areas.

By allowing them access to you at your most vulnerable you remove those walls and invite them in. Yes, this gives a person that you have harmed terribly a free shot at you, but its pretty much guaranteed to hurt less than what we chose. We, at least, have the benefit of having chosen. They were suckerpunched in the truest sense of the word by our betrayal.

My wife referred me to SI. I was initially reluctant for self serving reasons similar to Card. I've read all of her posts and she's read all of my growing collection. Some things she's said have been excruciating to read. I don't regret reading them and having that insight into where she is. It's only right that she get the same chance, especially considering the context.

I read your resistance to your spouses' involvement in your recovery (through whatever medium) as fear and an unwillingness to open yourself completely because you may be hurt. That's at best. At worst you're putting your own recovery ahead of the vast potential gains to be had in helping her heal by showing them that they do not struggle alone. That you're putting immense and honest effort into fixing yourself. That you want and trust your spouse to be a part of it.

To return to uncertainone's analogy. The customer already knows the engine exploded. He/She was sitting at ground zero when it happened. Shrapnel, blood, concussions, contusions. It was a critical injury. Now you're telling them that you fixed that issue, but you won't show them how? That's the tougher sale in my opinion.


Posts: 55 | Registered: Jun 2013
ResoluteH
♂ 39673
Member # 39673
Default  Posted: 2:17 AM, August 12th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tesserect, you wrote:

I feel it shows an unwillingness to make yourself vulnerable to your betrayed spouse.

The words in that sentence that follow "I feel" do not express a feeling. They express an opinion, and it's an opinion about me, someone whom you do not know from Adam. Sorry, but that sort of "I feel" stuff is, in my opinion, bullshit. It's also one of my triggers, going back to my first marriage, but I won't get into that. Intead, I'll relate another experience.

It reminds me of a couple in a couple's therapy group that my wife and I participated in many years ago (pre-affairs). They told of an argument they were having, and the wife told the husband, "You're a bastard!" Both of them, especially the husband, were well versed in therapy. The husband very gently said, "Remember to use 'I feel' sentences." To which the wife responded, "I feel you're a bastard!"

The point, of course, is that "you're a bastard" is not a feeling. "Angry," "hurt," "sad," and "disappointed" are feelings. For some reason, counselors or self-help books have taught us that, because no one can dispute what our feelings are, we can make any statement acceptable by putting "I feel" in front of it. It just ain't so. (By the way, the wife in my story knew exactly what she was doing.)

[This message edited by ResoluteH at 2:40 AM, August 12th (Monday)]


Resolute Husband

Posts: 38 | Registered: Jun 2013
ResoluteH
♂ 39673
Member # 39673
Default  Posted: 2:25 AM, August 12th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Time for an epilogue.

Uncertainone's comment about giving perrmission for a spouse to talk to one's counselor was ironic because, a few weeks ago, I gave my counselor permission to tell my wife anything I said in our sessions. (We both see the same counselor for individual session and joint sessions. He is amazingly careful about not revealing things from individual sessions, and I don't think he's slipped up a single time in three years.)
He thanked me for it but said he would not reveal anything unless, in his opinion, it would be helpful -- which I sort of took as his way of saying, "thanks, but that's not usually a good idea."

Now fast forward to this evening when my wife and I took a walk. I told her about this thread and mentioned my hypothetical about inviting her to one of my counseling sessions. I did NOT mention uncertainone's comment. She said, "I've been meaning to talk to you about something. You told P [our counselor] that he can tell me what you say in your sessions. I don't want that. I think you need that confidentiality so you can work on your own issues."

So there you have it, uncertainone. An endorsement of your opinion from a betrayed spouse.

[This message edited by ResoluteH at 2:27 AM, August 12th (Monday)]


Resolute Husband

Posts: 38 | Registered: Jun 2013
Topic Posts: 18

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