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Runninggirl posted 8/14/2013 01:39 AM

In fact, he borderline defends her.
It is beyond irksome.

Nothing is going on at this point. I know the last contact, so it isn't that.
He assured me (for whatever that is worth these days) he isn't pining away for her.,
Then why is he so damn protective of her.
How is she has done nothing wrong. I hate this. He said I am reading way too much out of it.
Regardless if I am or not.
I just want to know. Does ANYONE else feel this way in your R? As if FWS defends OP.

Thank you! Rag

smittennomore posted 8/14/2013 01:42 AM

Hi RG,

From my experience, it also initially seemed as though my WH was defending MCOW. As he began to work through IC though, what he found was that it was really about him (I mean, isn't it ALL about them?). Essentially, he couldn't say anything bad about MCOW without also owning that for himself. It took time for him to break down his own walls and fully see how selfish and twisted he was. On e he could see that, defending his AP ended. Fast.

Lucky posted 8/14/2013 01:47 AM

This is kind of hard to understand and may not make a lot of sense... the reason so many WS's "defend" the AP isn't because they think they are 'wonderful', it's because the AP is often a mirror reflection of themselves while in the affair.

Say your WS says "I like green", the AP "LOVES green too!"... instant bond

Remember the AP was a partner in the crime too & your H just may not be ready to accept the 'faults' of the person he chose to destroy his life, your life and your marriage for.

[This message edited by Lucky at 2:43 AM, August 14th (Wednesday)]

OptimisticWife posted 8/14/2013 02:36 AM

My H defended OW at the start. He felt sorry for her and felt like he did wrong by both her and I. I then found out we were in false R and that he was still trying to be her 'friend'.
I noticed he stop defending her after he ended it.

CLRhope4her posted 8/14/2013 06:39 AM

COMPLETELY understand! In the same exact situation here. OW got a FB page which she knew I would see and began posting lyrics such as Madness by Muse and 'if our love was tragedy why are you my clarity?'. It's been a year and she is still married to her H to top it off! I was upset and furious she would do that! Know what WH says? It's not really her fault because some people are addicted to a certain feeling and just can't let it go. Her addiction was the rush of the A and she apparently isn't capable of letting it go

I think it's a lot what Lucky says mostly. If he agrees the AP is a horrible selfish person, then what does that make them? This is the hardest part of acceptance for me. His latest line that cut? He doesn't believe she's a bad person. She was a good person who made a horrible mistake. Funny me thought a mistake was misfiguring the checkbook - not having an A with your best friend's H.

Lalagirl posted 8/14/2013 07:31 AM

it's because the AP is often a mirror reflection of themselves while in the affair

This was very much FWH. And it made me

tushnurse posted 8/14/2013 08:19 AM

I think this is very common, especially in LTA's. My H couldn't say one bad thing about his AP. He of course was breaking NC. The first time because seh had a breast cancer scare Yah right. The next time, we are friends, you wouldn't want me to end a friendship with my other friends, would you?
But when he really defogged, and really started to heal himself, and understand the degree of pain he caused, he started to dislike her very much. This being her MO, bedding men that were in crisis when they came to her for advice (she was a D attorney)...He really had some unfavorable things to say about her.
I about did cartwheels in the front yard the first time that happened.
It takes time for them to really get it.

((((and strength))))

plainpain posted 8/14/2013 09:23 AM

I wonder if it has something to do with 'control'? My H was very similar. Now we don't speak about her, so there isn't anything to 'defend'. He's very clear that it wasn't 'her fault', even though she very clearly went far out of her way to seduce him. He takes full responsibility. He feels very much like he was the 'user' in their relationship. He also initially felt like he owed her an apology for having an affair with her and getting her pregnant. I think it comes a lot from the KISA types - they hate to be left at the end of the day feeling like their damsel was a dragon in disguise.

Maybe it has to do with having control over the interpretation of the A relationship. Maybe it's about saying, 'I was not a victim, I was not weak. I was in full control. I made a wrong choice, and I am prepared to pay for it.'

I have asked my H why he hasn't been angry at the OW - he said that to be angry at her he would have to care about her. He doesn't have any feelings about her at all. In many ways, I do think she was literally an object to him. She was a doll that talked and did whatever he asked and loved everything he did. She wasn't real. He feels badly about that now, so naturally he can't put any blame onto her. He totally used her, and it's healthy, I think, to feel remorse about that - even if it's what she wanted.

StrongerOne posted 8/14/2013 10:56 AM

Sorry -- I forgot that this was the Recon forum Post removed for OW bashing. sorry.

[This message edited by StrongerOne at 11:00 AM, August 14th (Wednesday)]

TxsT posted 8/14/2013 11:05 AM

This is kind of hard to understand and may not make a lot of sense... the reason so many WS's "defend" the AP isn't because they think they are 'wonderful', it's because the AP is often a mirror reflection of themselves while in the affair.

I have come to see this point that Lucky posted. I do not remember if H ever stuck up for his OW. He tried not to talk about her at all because he said that that was his bad decision and now he was working to fix us. It took me so damn long to believe this.


[This message edited by TxsT at 11:08 AM, August 14th (Wednesday)]

TxsT posted 8/14/2013 11:08 AM

Sorry Lucky....for some reason my quote thing didn't work right.

StillGoing posted 8/14/2013 11:17 AM

My wife defended the OM early on. I think it wasn't him she was defending so much as herself. At one point she even said "If he is such a [badword.. okay lets be real, long winded stream of insults firmly grounded in fact] then what does that make me?" I don't remember what I said, probably just looked at her, don't think I said "Duh" but it probably went through my head.

I think a WS that defends an OP is still hiding from the horrible shit they did and the stuff they need to work on. They may not even care about the OP but like lucky said, the OP is a reflection of what they did and how they acted. If they see the OP and those actions as repugnant then there's hard work ahead.

Runninggirl posted 8/14/2013 11:38 AM

You all worded it much better than I was able to articulate it. Thank you.
Husband said today in MC,
"If I just trash her relentlessly, then you are going to think I have even less integrity than you already do"

He may be right about that. Not sure though.
I really wonder when I become
someone who is 'grieving' versus someone who just cannot get a grip
on my dignity. There has to be some sort of line drawn in the sand. Yelling a slew of curse words aimed at FOW out of nowhere cannot just go on forever. If H did join in, if I really thought about --it would be kind of gross. However, It would be a great help if he would acknowledge that she is selfish.

plainpain posted 8/14/2013 11:47 AM

Honestly, I don't think I would want my H bad-mouthing the OW endlessly. It would probably make me feel like he wasn't taking responsibility. It does make sense what others have said about 'mirroring'. If the OW is so awful, then what was he attracted to? He maybe wants to save face somehow, by holding onto the idea that she was someone amazing, and 'no wonder he was tempted', or something like that. I don't know. I try not to think about it too often.

BeyondBreaking posted 8/14/2013 11:49 AM

My DD's dad got mad at me- he said that I was "confusing him" because on the one hand, I told him that he needed to take responsibility for his actions, and then on the other hand, I acted like OW was responsible. He claimed to have defended his OW's because he was attempting to take responsibility without blaming anyone but himself.

Of course, he was doing that in no other area, and he is not someone I can trust as far as I can throw, so be that as it may.

blakesteele posted 8/14/2013 12:19 PM

Control is at play here...certainly. WS believe they were in complete control....if not, I don't think they would engage in adultery.

Moreover, I think there is a process in play here.

First....defense of AP. Comes from the addiction of the affair (such a wonderful person trapped in an unloving marriage married to the wrong person), from the mirror affect, and from fear of conflict (both internal in their minds and external between their spouses). I have witnessed this first hand.

Next...hatred and disgust towards AP. Feeling "how dare they tempt them" and the feeling of being used ...and the start of the realization that all the justifications...ALL of them....were complete lies. Hatred towards AP allows fWS the luxury to falsely push some of their hurtful selfish actions onto their AP. I have witnessed this.

Third, they become none-emotional towards AP. this is when all involved get to a peace that enables stronger marriages to be born. This is when a fWS accepts the full brunt of their own choices. This is when true repentance and full remorse can start. I am hopeful I am correct in this phase of the process....but I have NOT witnessed this for myself.

How did I arrive at this idea? Through changing a specifically unhealthy part of my life...I watched myself to from thinking "it's not that bad" to "it's bad but this caused me to do that" only to end up at " crap...I did do was so wrong...I accept i am the one and only to blame, I forgive myself....and NOW is the time to take productive, repeatable and strong actions to correct that which I did all on my own!"...

God help us all.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 12:24 PM, August 14th (Wednesday)]

Dallas2 posted 8/14/2013 12:30 PM

There is no pratically about it. While we were politely discussing his AP. I expressed my "kind" wishes for her and her life.

He said "While I heard she has breast cancer." He would not say who he heard this from.

My very un polite response was that I didn't give a sh*t and that it was just karma. I also told him I hopes she still get betrayed so she knows how I feel. He thinks I am just evil..

I don't believe you are reading to much into it. I want to know. How can they defend the AP even after years have gone by?

LA44 posted 8/14/2013 15:54 PM

Just last night we went back to the first night and that is what I heard from him and like you runningirl, it IRKED me and then infuriated me.

He wanted me to know that HE initiated it (which he already told me D-Day) and that he made going to her room sound "innocent" so that is why she likely agreed to it.

Is anyone else laughing?

Now let me give you the back drop pre-room suggestion so you can see just how innocent she was.

They spent the night drinking with a bunch of other conference people until the bar closes at 2am

They go to the party room with 20 others where the drinks continue and the two of them engage in "joking around". What do you mean by jokes? I asked. Would you tell those jokes with me around? He answers, No.

At 5am, they are both very drunk, he suggests they have another drink and talk in her room. She agrees totally unsuspecting I am sure!

He tries to kiss her in the room but "she would have none of that." He passed out there.

They had sex when he woke up. Apparently she had condoms in her purse ready to be unrolled.

Yeah...a real lady waits a solid 5-7 hours before having sex.

He has said many x over that he is repulsed by his behavour. That he is not trying to paint her as innocent. But yeah. It does seem to me like he is protecting her and I have heard enough.

[This message edited by LA44 at 3:59 PM, August 14th (Wednesday)]

Tearsoflove posted 8/14/2013 16:03 PM

My husband did that with the first OW. It was all him. She was a good person. Blah, blah, blah.

I asked him:
1. Did she know you were married?
2. Did she know you have children with your spouse?
4. Did she pursue a relationship by calling, emailing, coming to see you despite knowing the above?
3. Did you discuss the way your family would feel if they found out?

Yes to any of those questions means that she is not the good person he wants to believe she is and she DID do something wrong. The fact that she didn't take vows with me simply means that she's the only one who didn't break promises. It does NOT mean that she is innocent. And, unfortunately for my husband, he was able to answer yes to every question.

Good people do not have affairs with married people. The only way I would allow the "she was innocent" defense is if he had lied to her about his relationship status. And, if at any time after being lied to about the status, she found out the truth and continued the relationship, any defense she had for her actions is gone.

catlover50 posted 8/14/2013 16:14 PM

My H does not bash the OW, but has nothing good to say about her. Doesn't blame her, although says that she made it obvious she was available. He says that he never respected or loved her, eventually found her annoying and did not enjoy being around her, that she was needy, demanding and very insecure. But he always says that he was as "fucked up" as she was.

He never felt badly about the way he treated her because he didn't respect her. He also realizes it was never about her, she was just easy.

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