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Do you believe that sometimes you have to hit rock bottom before things change and start moving towards the better? I feel like that is where WH and I were. We were mere weeks away from him moving out. The things being said and done were just horrible. Was it the realness of him leaving that flipped the switch? Or did he just have to get out all the nastiness to be able to fill himself up with good. The other side of the "change" to the new him is that you can't undo the things said and done. Or thoughts about whys. I can't unthink the worthless thoughts. Like why did he have to emotionally abuse me to figure out anything. Yes, I know it's not about me. I know I can work through what was said and done...I just mean those things will stay with me kind of like the A. It will pop up in the future but the emotions attached to it will hopefully not be as strong.

I think for some people yes. I know my H says he hit rock bottom after the ONS - he describes it as his eyes being opened up to reveal the asshole he was and he knew he had to change.

I have never had an A but had a problem with pills. I thankfully didn't have to hit "rock bottom" but with the loving intervention of my H (he DID care enough about me at least with that! :) I was able to recognize the downward spiral I was on and pick myself back up.

In our case, yes. I begged my H for years to stop the porn. He refused because he was arrogant and a know-it-all. I think those traits led him right to the A. He thought he deserved it and if I didn't know what harm would it do?

On Dday he was confronted with the reality of the damage. I think he needed to see the devastation in order to R and demonstrate remorse.

I believe that two people who have shared a life together get to a point where neither of them wants to speak what is truly in their hearts. They are affraid of what the other MIT think, not think, feel and say. Because of this is think most marriages fall into a state of two people withholding very important information or feelings from each other. They don't want the armour surrounding their lives to get a chink or be damaged because that could lead to the loss of family, respect, whatever. We got to rock bottom as well because my husband refused to share with me many of the feelings within him that had grown over time. He harboured these feelings inside, allowing them to fester and grow and breed resentment and misconception. I was to blame as well. I hid my disolusionments of the path we were on and how lonely I was. If only we had both been able to release this energy and deal with it???? Instead it built to a roar within us. His door was created by his misconceptions and my world was destroyed because I just wanted to keep the peace......how sad, how very sad.

We have learned through this struggle that both of us felt our marriage slipping but neither had the courage to say it openly. Thanks to hitting the rock bottom you speak of, we have been awakened to what we truly want and are finally working towards that.

T

Rock bottom is when you decide to stop digging. We have had a lot of what could have been "rock bottoms" over the years. All that ended up happening was dynamite had to be used to keep digging.

I believe this time we finally had a nuclear blast that leveled everything. Thank god. This time is a completely fresh start.

So yes I do believe that pain is necessary to initiate a change. Sometimes a little pain is enough sometimes complete destruction is needed.

PrincessPeach, your pills experience reminded me of something that I went through. And I guess maybe I do believe the cliche. About 7 and a half years ago I had a serious bout of depression. I knew it was the worst I ever felt and that I wasn't thinking in a good way. I had the feelings of, "they'd be better off without me," and "I wish I was dead so I don't have to feel this pain." But I didn't do anything about it because I thought it would pass. I knew I was feeling bad and that if I really wanted to die, I would have been dead. But what smacked me in the face and got me to realize I needed help was when I started to cut. I had never done that before. I never wanted to. I never had a desire to. I was in so much emotional pain I felt like I needed to let it out somehow. After I did it a few times I knew that wasn't me. I knew I needed help and I went out and got it on my own. I'm not sure if I would have if I didn't hit that rock bottom.

Chicho - I like your dynamite analogy. I do feel like there isn't anything new to explore. I don't mean that we are done exploring but that I think we have really hit a point where all the crap has been exposed and now we are sorting, healing, and figuring things out.

I don't believe in rock bottoms other than being dead, since the potential for Shit Getting Worse never seems to reach a point of diminishing returns. I think the choices people make to turn around or start climbing back up are as weighted and conscious as those made to dig. People can always do fucked up stupid shit no matter what situation they are in.

If I may geek out a moment, in AD&D you can take a party of adventurers and tell them they awake in a 10x10 cell with one door sitting open and the rest of the room is bare, seamless stone. The next room over is filled with treasure, bacon, immortal horses with lojack installed, everything the want. All it takes is for them to go into the damn room.

That party of adventurers, 9 times out of 10, will spend the next three play sessions trying to go in any direction other than through that fucking door. "Do I have a shovel? YES MY CHARACTER HAS A SHOVEL" "I cast earth shape and move the rock" "Can we set the wall on fire?" "I am using the ammonia from my urine to concoct an acid" etc. They will dig in every single direction by every available means and come up with some of the most ridiculous, absurd shit possible because it makes more sense than just going through that door.

That door is too easy. Too obvious. The more insane shit they try, the more difficult it is to exit that room by any other means, the more dangerous that simple exit looks, until it becomes more than overwhelmingly suspicious but some kind of challenge of pride and tenacity and fortitude and BEING RIGHT GOD DAMNIT. "My character is an engineer and judging by the number of calories we've all burned and the volume of air consumed there must be an egress to the surface nearby; calculating work done by energy consumed I'd estimate it's at WXY distance because Z is for Zizzer Zazzer Zoo" and in that circumstance, digging and trying to turn your own feces into an arcane pencil vis-a-vis Harold and his Purple Crayon. By the end of the week game time and the third play session it generally looks like a psychology experiment gone awry, with at least half the party dead and the walls chalked over with Monty Python references. Then someone says "Fuck it, I go through the door" and a dick DM will say "okay, the room is filled with the shit I told you about and there's a door to the left you couldn't see that goes to a nice sunny beach with rabbits that are too fat and cuddly to run away" but generally the point is, people will very often take the most difficult and irrational path available because they are suspicious of the obvious route. Actually the point was that you can always make things worse, but that other one is a good point too. Also, they had no idea what would happen and the looming disappointment of not getting the rewards from the obvious choice is also a big deterrent to making that choice. The anti-climactic ending makes the rewards seem less valuable from that position of not-entirely-rational thinking as well - nothing to defeat? IT MUST BE A TRAP!

Sorry for rambling.

Stillgoing - That whole thing made me laugh. And honestly I'm not sure I have a clue what you are talking about. I might have to read that a few times through.

stillgoing - That was AWESOME!!!! I was seriously LOL'ing in my office. The reason it was so damn funny is that it is totally true. I see my kids doing the same stupid shit when they play that damn minecraft game.

You have a very valid point as well.

Was it the realness of him leaving that flipped the switch?

Sometimes this is the case. It was for my WH. He changed after that. Was not in the same 'fog' he was stuck in before. I have definitely seen a difference since. My WH works more towards pleasing me now.

SG - Sorry never played that but I think the reason that people don't do what is obviously true and right is about fear. They are afraid of being truly close and intimate with their spouse. These can be for all kinds of reasons, including the fear of pain or rejection, fear of being swallowed up by another person, etc.

TTCD - I am so glad that you feel the bottom has been finally reached! I have watched from the beginning and your WH was really fighting getting it. Onward and upward.

I did have to call WH and have him in his dorky wisdom read that and explain it to me. He agrees with you, btw. He also told me to post this:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=haOys7E2Zbo

But I get what you mean that things can always be worse. Not want I want to think about though. And if we live in fear of that are we living at all? I guess knowing it can happen but not letting it control us and being healthy and strong enough to deal if it does happen is the key.

Hahahaha. Bookmarked.

Also, the fear thing is spot on

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI&feature=share&list=PL73492101DD03C551

All right, sorry for going off track. And waging an epic battle against conformity.

[This message edited by StillGoing at 3:13 PM, August 23rd (Friday)]