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Nicnac posted 8/25/2013 10:09 AM

My WS claims he "never EVER showed any affection" towards his AP, but I don't see how that can be. He had sex with her. He made out with her in the back of her car. He took her to get ice cream and to the movies. How is all of that not showing affection?

KVille posted 8/25/2013 10:46 AM

Maybe true, she is a whore and he just wanted release. Not that it makes it any easier but it could be true.

isadora posted 8/25/2013 11:06 AM

You can't look at an A like a real relationship, there usually is an endgame involved or an action to perpetuate the fantasy.

Nicnac posted 8/25/2013 11:09 AM

It could be true that he didn't have feeling toward her, but he showed affection by taking her on dates and giving her attention. Maybe he used the wrong word. Maybe he didn't mean for his actions to be taken affectionately, but if someone was kissing me and texting me all day after saying he wasn't supposed to have his phone at work (like it was a BIG deal because he risked his job in order to be able to talk to her during the day- which he didn't, he and everyone always have their phones) and buying me ice cream and makin me feel he wanted me over his wife... That feels like affection.

I agree that she was a whore that he wanted for release, but I kind of wish he'd just found a hooker...

HardenMyHeart posted 8/25/2013 11:37 AM

but I don't see how that can be. He had sex with her. He made out with her in the back of her car. He took her to get ice cream and to the movies. How is all of that not showing affection?

Of course these are signs of affection; however, what I interpret your WH as trying to say is that he just used the OW for sex. In other words, there was no emotional intimacy behind the acts. He did what he felt he had to do to get what he wanted (in my mind this kind of thinking is really disgusting).

Whether or not he is telling the truth is hard to determine. Some WS's will do whatever is needed just to have sex, and some really do develop strong emotional feelings. In general, the emotional aspects of an affair are more difficult for the BW and the physical aspect of an affair is more difficult for the BH. Some WH's instinctively know this, so they try very hard to convince their wife that, "it was just sex and she meant nothing to me". Getting to the bottom of his thinking at the time will be painful and time consuming.

I recommend you read the book, Not "Just Friends" by Shirley Glass. This book will provide some good insight for you. Also, a good MC that specializes in infidelity can be of tremendous help.

So sorry for what are going through.

[This message edited by HardenMyHeart at 11:49 AM, August 25th (Sunday)]

AFrayedKnot posted 8/25/2013 11:44 AM

You can't look at an A like a real relationship,

So simple but so true!!!

Nicnac posted 8/25/2013 12:32 PM

I don't think he had any emotions invested in the affair. The moment he thought she'd been caught (she had been, by her husband) he broke all ties. There hasn't been a shred of communication between them and as far as I can tell he hasn't had any of the withdrawal.

I do think it was purely for release, but that bothers me just as much as an EA. it's hard to be physical with him because I know he was physical with her.

catlover50 posted 8/25/2013 19:46 PM

I believe my H when he says this. He did think they were friends at first and he mentored her, which was good for his ego, but the sex was made available and he just went for it (nice, I know). She wasn't even someone he had been attracted to.

Although it became very messy and toxic, and he never took her on a date or bought her a thing, they did continue to have sex occasionally for years. He realizes now it was compulsion, etc, but at the time did not feel badly about using her because he felt that she was using him too. He says there was never a single expression of affection in almost four years. She gave him a card that said she was glad he was in her life. That's it.

When I confronted her she said she was lonely. Great excuse, right? Might as well have added desperate, to accept nothing but crumbs from a married man.

And my H passed a polygraph. So yeah, I thinks it's possible. Of course my H has lots of issues.

Bloomsday posted 8/25/2013 21:22 PM

It would have been equally wrong and hurtful if he had not bought her ice cream.

Him: She wanted it. She wanted it bad, but I never bought her ice cream.

LisaP posted 8/25/2013 22:12 PM

He did what he felt he had to do to get what he wanted

This is what my XH said. He was actually relieved I found out, because the pressure was getting to much for him. This way, in his eyes, I ended the A.

5454real posted 8/25/2013 22:32 PM

Absolutely. Never followed through, but the "what happens in vegas stays in vegas" mindset is alive and well. In my field, women are there for a class. Probably will never see the instructors again.

Been more than one knock on my door. "No-one will ever know".

Damn, I resent being called no-one.

Strength

Josephine01 posted 8/25/2013 22:57 PM

Well there was an A if there was sex. There was an a if there was emotion involved. If "you . . . look at an A like a real relationship" then if your WH is telling the truth then perhaps in his mind there wasn't an A. But that is not good for R, because he can't see his fault in the relationship.

My H says there was no A because there was no sex it is all in the eyes of the beholder. Nicnac, I think there was sex involved, but if there wasn't, which one of our cheating husbands is correct?

In my opinion they both entered into an A.

sailorgirl posted 8/26/2013 08:50 AM

Yes. I take affection to mean feelings of kindness, warmth, appreciation, sweetness, care-taking . . . It's a pure and simple emotion like the one you feel for a child who reaches for your hand or your beloved dog when his ears do that floppy thing.

fWH never felt anything pure or sweet for OW. He felt everything from pity to anxiety, obligation, disgust, and resentment. But not joy or affection. I am not minimizing because it is hell, but I do think it is easier for me this way.

catlover50 posted 8/26/2013 09:59 AM

I agree it's easier, sailorgirl. But also, our WHs risked everything for people that meant nothing to them. Plus treated those people as less than people. So it's its own special degree of dysfunction.

[This message edited by catlover50 at 9:59 AM, August 26th (Monday)]

NeverAgain2013 posted 8/26/2013 10:14 AM

I think cheaters lie and swear on their own children's lives even when they're lying.

There are precious few women who'll put up with being some married guy's dirty little secret for absolutely NO payoff whatsoever. Why would they waste their time with some cold, rotten, unemotional and unaffectionate guy? What's the point?

Most of these women are looking for some kind of emotional fulfillment from these married men, so the stories of these guys being completely unaffectionate, unemotional and undemonstrative are more than likely untruths to keep the heat off themselves as much as possible.

I heard the same horse crap from my ex, about how "she whined that he wouldn't put his arm around her or hold her hand..." and all this other nonsense he spewed, designed purely to make himself look like he was giving her nothing but the bare minimum of common courtesy. What a crock. That was all just more lies to minimize his involvement and make himself look less guilty to me.

The truth eventually came out.

catlover50 posted 8/26/2013 10:18 AM

Neveragain, I agree that is probably more typical; I have seen here that eventually the OW usually wants more.

But don't forget, often they are as effed up as the WS. In my H's case, she did cry about being treated badly, but was so desperate that she allowed it to continue. I talked to her and he took a poly. I believe it.

Likely not the norm, but it is possible.

njgal480 posted 8/26/2013 10:34 AM

Yes, it's possible.
I had a hard time believing this especially in the case of a LTA.
You assume there was this strong bond.
But....most affair relationships are nothing like a dating relationship!
It's nothing like anything that most BS are familiar with so it's hard for us to believe that you could have sex with someone and not have loving feelings for someone else.

My FWH swears that he never loved the MOW and only loved me.
That it was a matter of convenience and availability.

The MOW said much the same thing to me... although she described it more as a no strings attache f-buddy situation.

The MOW had no expectations for the LTA to turn into a 'real' relationship.
In fact, she preferred to keep it as a very sexual, no emotion thing.

I have emails that span 4 yrs of the LTA (got them from MOW's BH) and not one of them has anything remotely affectionate or loving in it.

They are extremely graphic and sexual...all innuendo...

the build up to the actual acts were a big part of the attraction of the LTA as well.
There were weeks and months of emails back and forth about what they would do to each other. (yuck)
but not one mention of love or even "I miss you".

After d-day both of them went NC and never looked back.
There were no phone calls or emails expressing concern for each other.
It was done.

I was separated from my FWH for 6 months and the OW was separated from her BH as well and they never got together during this time.
Why?
Because the cat was out of the bag. It was no longer 'fun'.

Not all LTAs are like this-but many are.

cantbelieve posted 8/26/2013 11:15 AM

I still find it hard to believe that it was all "just sex" for 4 years. He told me over and over that he did not love her, it was for sex only.

Then when dday hits and immediately wants to go to counseling and he is done with the affair. We start counseling and proceed to HB, then I find out 6 months later that he kept seeing her.

He was getting sex at home, why did he continue with her, unless there was "feelings" and affection?

broken81 posted 8/26/2013 11:26 AM

When my WH would say this I would have a hard time believing him.
How can you risk everything, screw, keep up an LTA with someone you have no feelings for and give no affection ? but its true.
I started to believe it more when it came from the OW's mouth. Her exact words were "He never once showed me that he even cared about me". No gifts, dates, ILY, just sporadic quickies. He wouldnt even kiss her on the mouth. He says he kissed her on the cheeck but he just did it because he felt like he should but that he felt like she was more like a prostitute to him than anything else.
Its all so pathetic and disgusting

FightingBack posted 8/26/2013 12:43 PM

OK here's another take.

15 years in a "monogamous" affair.

H claimed to have never loved her. But he also admitted to saying those words because "that's what she wanted to hear".

She looked very hurt when I told her what he said, but she also shrugged and accepted that it was probably true. Even though to her, they had a deep and loving relationship, she didn't pretend to know exactly how deep (or not) his feelings went.

Gifts were exchanged (he bought her jewellery, but not a ring as she had requested.

Affection? Probably. I didn't want to admit that to myself but off course there must have been words and actions expressing affection. mIt's all part of the game. Maybe it was real, maybe it was part of the fantasy world they built around them.

What bothers me more than anything though, is the investment of time and energy.
Time taken from me, from us.

My H is not an unkind man. Although he also claimed that they used each other, I can't imagine him being cold and unaffectionate while having a sexual relationship any more can I imagine any AP getting anything from such an arrangement.

Nicnac, I totally get what you are saying though.
As much as my H would like to see the A as something unromantic, unemotional and just easy and convenient, I know that in order to maintain it, (and maybe even justify it) they had to be affectionate with each other.

Unless it was just raw sex without looking at or speaking to each other, how could it not have involved affection?