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I've read so many books and articles and postings at SI. They talk about "fog" "affair bubble" and "glitter farting unicorns in rainbow-land" but it all feels so very trite. Like if I want to R I have to believe these things (whether they are true or not) in order to move forward. But really it's just a another "pass" for the WS. All I hear is "Oh, he/she didn't really love or have valid feelings for their AP. Oh no, of course not, it was the fog..." I mean, that's what we have to buy into to make that step or leap into R, right? If we believe they loved or had valid feelings and the A isn't strictly about them being broken (and I don't believe it is) we have to accept that it's more likely it could happen again, even if there is IC/MC, remorse and a changing of themselves.

I keep going back to the cold hard fact that what hurts isn't only that he made a horribly bad decision, but that he was capable of dismissing me to do it. I do not believe for one second that he did not think of what would happen if he got caught, and I believe any WS that says they didn't think about it is nothing but a bold faced liar once again trying to spare the feelings of the BS. He knew if/when he got caught it would emotionally devastate me and he gave that thought and fact a "fuck you" and did it anyways. It's not about "right" and "wrong" for me, it's that fact he could decide when he needed a physical or emotional need/want filled *I* was not who he chose to help him fill or meet that need/want. He chose another woman to replace my role in his life. The role of supporting and helping, the role of his partner and confidant. He cast me aside because he wanted to. That is really is what it comes down to, he did it because he wanted to, because it was better for him in the short term and possibly in the long term.

So the question is, does it matter if he is remorseful and goes through IC to find new coping mechanisms? I mean, there is something wrong at his very core because this isn't a "bad decision". It is so much more. This is the kind of "internal brokenness" that allows people to make decisions to purposefully, knowingly and consciously harm other people mentally emotionally and physically. People can go to therapy and work on their issues and past traumas, but I do not know that they can change who they are at their very core.

My WS, at his very core is a liar and a cheater. People are put to death in this country for treason, and we as BS are trying to find ways and words towards reconciliation. We have to buy into the catch phrases and spoon feeding to be able to see a path to a better person in our WS. And then we have to hope against all logic that they will not choose treason once again.
Afterall, we stayed and gave them a gift they did not deserve and cannot earn...us, the loyal.

We talk about the AP like they are somebody else's used trash, but aren't our WS the same? They are the AP, no better and no worse, even if they are working to reconcile, they are still used trash to someone and their family. Why do I want used trash? I wouldn't want a relationship with his AP, why should he be any different? He is no different, no matter what he changes, his core is ugly, I'm not sure that can be remedied.

Well, I think you make many valid points. Only you can decide if they add up to a permanent separation from your WS. Cheating is an ultimate act of selfishness, no doubt the only thought of us during the times they chose THEM was for fleeting, dismissive and annoyed moments.
But to say they cannot change? Atone? Be remorseful and insightful enough to prevent it's repeat? I think they can, with the proper help and hard work. Whether that is good enough for you is a separate question and one you have ever right to consider.
I think, to some extent, all of us have it in us to lie and cheat. Some of us are strong enough to make the better choices, some are not. That doesn't give them a pass. And neither should you.

[This message edited by scaredyKat at 2:23 PM, August 25th (Sunday)]

Kierst13, I am right there with you, so I don't have any advice.

You have worded it much more eloquently than I could have, I am still a bit emotional with my thoughts. I hate how I was "dismissed" as well.

I keep wondering if time will change how I feel about him and more importantly, do I want to feel differently about him? Since we have kids, I have to at least accept that he's going to in my life for a long time.

[This message edited by ILINIA at 5:57 PM, August 25th (Sunday)]

That is one of my biggest thing too. He says there is nothing I could have done. It was all him. How is that supposed to make me feel better? I feel like I am wading in the trash he threw me it. It is going to take me a while to get over it.

I keep wondering if time will change how I feel about him and more importantly, do I want to feel differently about him?

I think this is where I'm struggling. Do I really want to love him again? It feels very backwards and wrong.

A big part of the reason I am considering R is because we have kids, but I will NOT stay for the kids alone. I think that does more harm than good in the long run if true R cannot be reached and maintained.

I have friends that lived in households where the parents stayed together for the kids and they all knew it. Even when they were having a great time as a family they could feel the underlying tension and they knew their parents weren't together because of their love for one another. I refuse to do that to my kids.

(((kierst13)))

I'm sorry you are in this mental place; it is horrible. I think that you are being very clear headed.

I think that it is possible for WSs to truly be in love. But the reality is that they are not in reality, so often it does not hold up to the light of day. I think that is what the unicorns, fog, etc are about. Statistically, I have heard, only about 10% of marriages from affairs make it.

In your case, what your WH did to you was awful. Nothing is worse than false R, IMO (I went through my own version). He clearly saw what he put you through, no denying it, then continued on. I would consider that abusive.

But people are flawed. Perhaps he really did not own up to his issues the first time (as occurred with my fWH--he was still lying about the truth and hiding his CSA history). Perhaps he really is capable of lasting change. Only you can decide if it is worth the risk.

Good luck.

I have these thoughts also. You get the impression they are walking in shock and bumped into a whore. I do not believe the WS is so dumb. I do not believe they are so broken, they cant make moral decisions. I do believe life gets tough. They like to escape. I believe they are cowards. And I think they had moments wondering if they should go thru with it. AND chose to cheat. Chose to lie. Chose to sneak. I also believe in 2013, by now, most Ws have already witnessed enough A, to know the outcome. They knew. They still chose. If they didnt "think" how did they keep it hid so well? They scramble to say anything now. my issues are: Does fog exist? Or did they really have feelings for OW? I think both. When fog is gone, do they think of them often? You cannot wipe your brain free of memories. This is a high emotion memory. I feel he got away with it. There is no punishment really. For this to be one of the most traumatic things to live thru, they just go on, happily ever after. Even if they regret it, work on it, that doesnt compare to what BS experience. Its too one sided. And now, what happens if they feel low self esteem, depressed, ignored, too much pressure, again? Will they need escape again? This is normal life. And I believe sometimes, that WH okayed it for himself to punish me. And he deserved this. He was angry and self serving. ANything can be called broken. When is it deliberate? Maybe, Whats really broken is his connection to me. We are trying to R. I am very bitter, and I have issues with anything he says, being true. I want him to suffer something more then loosing her.

[This message edited by cancuncrushed at 12:28 PM, August 26th (Monday)]

Kierst, get out of my head! I've been struggling with many of these same feelings for the past week. Yesterday marked 3 weeks since D-Day. I spent the entire day asking myself why I would even want to attempt to give WH another chance. He led a double life for 5 years. I've finally uncovered who he really is; I discovered the stranger in my house. I love the person he led me to believe he was. Who he really is repulses me.

All of the qualities I loved about him - kindness, loyalty, compassion, honesty, gentleness, generosity, forgiving - they are all lies. He is selfish, petty, a liar, a user, a manipulator, an abuser, a predator. He is a thief who stole 7 years of my life; he wiped out 7 years of memories.

My rage boiled over yesterday and I let him have it. It doesn't matter that he is doing everything right since D-Day. The enormity of what he's done is too much to ever deserve my forgiveness. All of the IC sessions in the world can't "fix" him. He is rotten at his core. That is who he really is, not the image he sold me. The essence of his being cannot be changed.

I felt awful thinking these things, let alone saying them to him. But I can't shake these feelings and thoughts out of my head.

[This message edited by Fireflies at 12:33 PM, August 27th (Tuesday)]

I feel the same, dismissed, a plan b. he of course said I never was.

Except now, it did get too hard, so after months of great R effort from him, he's running, because it's too much, and it's not getting better enough by now (it's been 7 months since the TT of 1 year and multiple times of going back to her stopped)

After all, why should he try if nothing will change? That was a direct quote, btw.

He says we don't really aren't/weren't "great" together, just "so-so"(he literally said so-so last night) and anyway, he isn't really worthy of me so why bother.
Never mind that I gave him this chance that he's throwing away, you know, that's nothing to work for.

Broken is really not even enough of a word to use.

Thinking positively for all of you. I wish you peace on whatever path you chose.

Hi Kierst30
I honestly do not know what to tell you. I've been with my WS for 30 years. He started cheating about 4 years ago, but was on-line for a couple of years before that. He was a good husband all along. I had no idea. It came out of the blue. I love the man and I remember what a great husband he was for so many, many years. He is sorry, remorseful and admits to being extremely selfish and a huge liar. It's an art form and he knows he is excellent at it. Is he sorry? Yes. Is he really trying to R? Yes. I know deep down what happened to our marriage - why he went looking. Yes, he should have spoken to me - he chose to cheat....but, that doesn't change the facts. It takes 2 people to make a marriage and 2 to bring it to it's knees. It was his decision and his decision alone to cheat. I was not a party to any of it....I thought we were OK...not, great but okay. We had settled into a brother/sister relationship that I thought he was content with....kinda. What a fool was I? But, he was/is/has been a good man in so many more ways. Does he deserve this chance? Yes. Will it work? I don't know but I know that we do love each other and if I didn't try, I'd always wonder????
I don't know if that helps you or not. You don't have a lot of years invested like I had, but I guess you need to look at the quality of your life with him and decide for yourself if he is worth it. The continue lying etc., I suspect that he isn't.
I am so sorry that you are here but everyone has shown me such consideration and care that at least you know you have some support and people who know what you are going through. My only other piece of advice would be not to decide anything for a few months. If you're still reeling, it's pretty hard to make logical decisions - you need to do what is good for you. What will work for you. Don't think about him - think about YOU!!!

Kierst--I believe some WHs probably do fall in love but that the vast majority are in fantasy land. I found the email where my H first declared "love" to his most recent EA/PA and it was a nonsense jumble of words but boiled down to the fact that she would never have made him leave his beloved home state like I did. The email was a comfort to me because it was proof that his love had nothing to do with her and everything to do with life stresses and his addiction to the endorphins of new romance.

Sure, a few people really do fall in love with their AP, but if they truly love them then they leave to be with them. I suspect your H is trying to keep you as the lover that makes him feel safe and her as the lover that keeps those new romance endorphins bubbling. He doesn't truly love her.

But will he ever change? Maybe he can but he hasn't shown you that he will. You've been given the gift of seeing past his lies to his true actions. What you do with that information is up to you, but my experience tells me this isn't the last d-day you'll have if you stick with this guy.

I'm so sorry he's such a jerk.

"Oh, he/she didn't really love or have valid feelings for their AP. Oh no, of course not, it was the fog..."

I could say and have said word similar to that - as a description, not as an excuse. This describes a breakdown in morals and character and thinking and feeling - having an A is to fail as a human being, IMO. The words quoted can sound like an excuse, but at least for me, the words are more of an indictment.

If you R, you do have to give your WS a pass. There is simply no punishment or consequence for the WS that won't hurt you. Personally, I don't want to add more hurt on top of what I've already got. I chose R - my W gets a pass ... from me, but not from herself.

But - I mean this gently - you don't have to R. You are really free to S or D (or use your WS as a meal-ticket or sex object - though these last 2 choices probably aren't very healthy). You really are free to choose and to implement your choice.

And you don't have to choose until you're good and ready. Every one of us here will respect your choice when you make it.

In your profile you say your h wants to R, and you want to leave. You are an independent person. Your H broke your M. The only thing you owe him is to be honest about your intentions - even if your intention right now is to take as much time as you need to decide what outcome you want.

You can hold your head up high, whether you choose to S, to D, to R, or to wait before deciding.

(((Kierst13)))

I think that it is possible for WSs to truly be in love. But the reality is that they are not in reality, so often it does not hold up to the light of day. I think that is what the unicorns, fog, etc are about. Statistically, I have heard, only about 10% of marriages from affairs make it.

I just had this exact conversation with my WS today...we talked a lot today and a lot of interesting things came up.
He keeps saying "she really did care for me"...ok, maybe she did. Her caring or not caring doesn't make you a worthy or unworthy person. Maybe you cared for her too.
But here's my opinion on all of this crap...
No matter who you are, or how your relationship starts, all "love" really starts out as need.
We meet someone, we need something and they provide it. If you end up marrying and providing that for each other that develops into long term commitment and affection, marriage etc. The main ingredient being commitment-because it takes that to continue loving someone in daily life.
The first stages of an affair ARE fantasy land. Anyone falling in "love" is in fantasy land...affair or no affair.
The difference with the affair is that it stays in this bubble for so long that it cannot become a "real" relationship. It's always on edge, always exciting, always something that fulfills that "need" that the WS has inside them.
This is why marriages of affairs don't last. I read that 10% of people marry their affairs and 10% of them remain married. That's 1/100- which is substantially LOWER than the divorce rate of 50/100.
Just think about that for a minute.
They may have "cared" for each other, they may have even "loved" each other, but WE ALL KNOW that marriage isn't just love.
Which is why we are so unbearably hurt. We have not only invested LOVE-which is pretty big, but YEARS, money, energy, effort, and most importantly we sacrificed being with someone else, doing something else to be with the person who couldn't do the same.
I had to explain to my WS today that even though his AP may have loved him and cared for him, that he was simply FULFILLING A NEED that she had, as she was fulfilling a need he had.
The same way that he and I "fell in love"...but when we did we stuck with it, we married, had children, created a life and shared our daily stress and joys.
Affairs don't have any of that-they ARE bubbles. They are needs only love, not life sharing love.
The question is, as "dismissed" spouses, do we want to gather up all the things they threw away and put it all back in their hands.
We can only decide that one at a time.
I have not decided yet.

Thanks Sisoon, sometimes I need reminding that it's ok to not know the answer yet. And that's really where I am. I lean heavily towards leaving, but you're right he broke it and I now have the right to take the time I need to decide what is right for me and my kids.

MPL, thanks, I see what you're saying about the affair bubble. And to an extent I agree, but knowing the very personal and intimate things he shared with her that he never shared with me, it's hard not to believe it was more than the affair bubble talking.

The hardest part is knowing he is so fucking good at lying and hiding it. The man has a poker face that nobody else can rival. So at least for now, I have to assume everyone thing he says is a lie. If he says it's daytime I have to go outside and make sure the sun is out.