Umm, YES!! But, since that obviously isn't going to happen, I'm thinking of giving him a list of things that I need him to do to help make R easier for me (after 8 months of false R). I guess it sounds like an ultimatum - thoughts on that?
I am thinking of including having him allow me to use a GPS tracker on his phone, giving me all passwords (I have his phone password, but not iTunes). What else have you included? We have taken care of a NC call together already.
[This message edited by RedRose at 4:19 PM, September 7th (Saturday)]
MY WH also was not sure how much detail to give me, or if he should tell me anything that popped into his mind that I might not have asked about. Good question, actually. He was afraid if he offered too much on his own it would be stuff I didn't want to hear or that I would think he was dwelling on her and he wasn't and didn't want to upset me.
I told him to tell me anything important, such as things I asked him about before but he denied, anything that changed the timeline he gave me, that kind of thing.
What I did NOT want to hear was that she was a really nice person (No, she wasn't!), that she was innocent in this (nope) that she encouraged him to stay with me and gave him advice about our marriage (thanks, but no thanks) or anything that tried to make it seem like what he did was just a mistake, he dind't mean for it to go that far (yes, he did!) but he didn't really mean to hurt me. Right.
2 grown sons, 1 grown step-son
Last DDay, March 19, 2013 after a few weeks of TT- trying to have a new marriage after almost 35 years.
No more chances.
I asked my WW for her to come up with her own plan to fix the M, her, me, and her relationship with God. It has made me feel much better that she has made it a priority.
You should already have full transparency, passwords, phone record access, etc. BEFORE even thinking about R.
As far as R conditions, I've given her my ring back. I want her to rewrite new vows when she gives it back to me. We aren't anywhere near that stage.
So rules were set. She was either with me or against me.
1. NC letters mailed
2. All phone and email contacts purged of anyone I didn't approve of.
3. Email acct deleted and a new one created
4. Phone number changed to new one
5. All passwords given
6. Keyloggers installed
7. No voice mail rule- would answer my calls 24/7 no excuses
8. Would check in with a text every 30 min while I was at work
9. Would take time stamp pictures when she arrived and left anywhere.
10. Saved all receipts
11. Nothing deleted- phone log compared to bill every month. Internet history compared to keyloggers
And the most important ones:
12. 12 step work with a sponsor
14. Weekly meetings for us to discuss our progress and determine where we need to put our effort.
1. I wrote out my boundaries,limits and what I believe constitutes an affair. I made him read and sign it.
So that there is no room for confusion and deniability.
2. I demanded TT
3. His cell phone is mine the minute he walks in the door . It must stay in sight at all times when at home
4. I installed a text forwarding program on his cell that he does not know about. I will not be caught unaware ever again.
5. I installed a GPS tracker which he does not know about, he must let me know where he is or where he is going if not at work and answer his cell when I call if not in work hours. If he can not answer he must call me back within 5 min.
6. No going to parties and crashing at his buddies because he doesn't want to drive drunk...he lost that privilege forever. This is why taxis were invented.
7. I have access to all accounts and finances
8. I was the chief cook bottle washer and general slave for 25 yrs. apparently he had too much time on his hands, so he now has a list of household chores and general things he is responsible for.
9. I am still sleeping in our spare room and will move back to our marital bed when I am damn good and ready!
10. He needs to treat me like the queen I am for putting up with his bullshit for 25 years and a 3 1/2 month EA. He needs to date me and make me fall in love with him all over again.
11. He must continue seeing IC and when ready attend MC with me.
I figured if he was really sorry and really repentant he would agree to all of my terms and conditions. If he wasn't then he shouldn't let the door hit his ass on the way out. He WILL NOT get another chance and he knows it he breaks NC that I will call the OW myself and tell her he is moving in!
I know I sound like a bitch, but what I really am is a co-dependent BS who is trying to save her marriage and find her feet at the same time. I woke up one morning and realized that I am worth so much more than his bullshit!
Every one of us is worth more than the crap and bullshit our WS have put or are still putting us through. The trick is to realize it and make them realize that you realize it!
IC, with a release that allowed W's IC to tell me a) about W's goals and progress, b) if she rescinds the release, c) if she reveals another A, and - since W's IC is our MC, d) to bring anything from an IC session into MC sessions.
Answers my questions when I ask them, except that W could defer answering a Q until the next MC session, and she could ask for a break in the questioning. (I went on for hours sometimes)
W to 'treat me better than she treated ow' - arrange weekly dates, initiate sex sometimes, write love letters, etc.
They also make a program called easy spy for text messages that you can purchase for phones other than iPhone and I think there is a boyfriend tracker program you can purchase as well. Hope this helps.
<<Reconciliation list: I have tried to write out some requirements for trying to reconcile. I wrote out a list of things that I need from you and that I will try to do for you. There is a lot of symmetry between those lists. Maybe because these are things that I believe we need to heal ourselves and to build a healthy new relationship.
My needs going forward:
1) no contact- absolutely no contact with ow. If there are any attempts at contact by the ow, i am to be informed of them immediately. If it is a text or email, do not open or delete. Forward to me, and let me know immediately via phone. If there is any attempt at phone contact, do not answer. If you answer inadvertently, inform in 1 -2 sentences, that you do not want to hear from her. That you are in reconciliation and in love with me, and any contact is not welcome. Again, you contact me immediately to notify me of the conversation and its content. And approx length of time. Obviously if you feel the urge to contact her again, you do not contact her. You bring it to me in counseling or one on one. A marriage is between two people. If you still want her in it, you do not want to be married.
2) daily truth and transparency - no secrets, no lies. All email and electronic devices are completely open to me. Share new passwords, etc. Also transparency of daily schedule. I should know where you are and with whom throughout the days. Along with this almost logistical transparency, there is also need for true and full honest communication. When something bothers either of us, we need to share it with each other. And we also should share the good stuff, what we really appreciate or cherish in our lives. No attempts to manage each other by witholding information.
3) complete honesty and transparency regarding the A. All my questions will be answered truthfully, and fully. If you are not sure of the answer, think on it. If you remember something later that you didn't share, bring it up or email it. I will ask for the level of detail that I need. That is not up to you. No more secrets with ow. This includes eventually completing the timeline or the telling of the story of the A. Eliminating the secrets shared by you and ow helps me heal, and provides a new foundation upon which to build a new marriage. I am, as should be obvious, willing to go through this slowly and carefully. But drawing it out is hurting me and my emotional health. I want to process this and have no more secrets between us. Please do not try to manage my healing or the story by withholding or controlling the information that you give me.
4) your healing- individual counseling is a must for you to become a safe and healthy partner- husband and father. I do not support you ending individual counseling unilaterally. I am open to talking with your individual counselor if you two feel that would be helpful at any point. But I respect your counseling and need for privacy there. I will share and have shared some of the things that I hope you work on in individual counseling. You are responsible for your own healing, which goes beyond counseling. You will likely need to read books, journal, and communicate. Reading and posting on SI.com would also support your healing, my healing, and the healing of our marriage. We can work out ground rules, so that you feel safe there.
5) marital counseling- I think we will have to revisit this depending on new MC and counseling options. I think it is helpful for us to have a safe space and someone to help us navigate things as they arise. We can try other MC or one of our counselors for an occasional tough issue.
6) you support my healing- by listening non-defensively, accepting my venting, expressing your love, apologizing as appropriate, etc., etc., etc. It is really supportive to me when you also think proactively about triggers and supporting my healing. Maybe coming up with new ideas, making suggestions or just trying new things. Some may help, some may not. But things like suggesting sa marriage retreat, pursuing a christmas alternative, coming up with new ways to touch base, etc are really helpful. I will continue to tell you what I need, but it helps a lot to have you being proactive.
7) Protect the marriage and family. Many of the steps above contribute to a healing and nurturing environment. In addition, it is important to establish full and proper boundaries. Particularly with any person who could / might become an affair interest. And addressing boundaries with 'friends' who overstep them. Reporting any problems with boundaries, on your part or on that of others will help us work through this together. Just things that make you uncomfortable or that you think would make me uncomfortable.
What I offer in committing to reconciliation?
1) 100% in. I am committed to healing myself and building a new marriage with you. As long as we are both working on healing ourselves and building a new marriage, and are respecting the reconciliation requirements, I would like to take D and other soul-killing negotiations off the table. The A may still end up being a deal breaker, but I don't know that now.
2) work on healing myself
3) support your healing
4) share my needs with you and listen to you
5) protect our marriage by maintaining healthy boundaries and by providing you with a safe place to share and heal.
6) transparency- my schedule and activities if you want it
7) honesty including proactive honesty- not sitting on my feelings or stuffing them down
8) I will strive to appreciate you and the changes and progress you are making
9) making time for each other (1 on 1) and sharing my life with you
Married for over 15 years
2 beautiful boys in elementary school
You may not control all the events that happen to you, but you can decide not to be reduced by them. Maya Angelou
OnanIsland, your list is really well put - and I like that you included things that you were going to work on as well. I gave WH a short list last night, but I realize now that I should have put in things for me as well.
I think if allowed - they would just try to slither by doing the minimum.
It kinda still pisses me off that we would need to spell it out to them. Like - if you don't want to move heaven and earth figuring out how to do this R - then what the hell are we doing. R is definitely not a place for a casual attitude.
WH has only been reactive in this whole process - offering his phone only after I get upset, talking abut the A only after I get upset, etc. I also tend to tell him things that would help to reassure me, but he doesn't follow through. I told him last night that I need him to be more proactive in our healing, and he said "Do you want me to come up with stuff on my own?"
^^^^^^^ everything you say here is THE most frustrating thing in R. There are people that take it seriously and figure it out on their own. Join here as a WS (and religiously post trying to figure thier stuff out). Then there are the frozen ones...annoying since it took actual ACTION to have the affair.
In my experience (which is vast) - DO NOT put up with him sliding out of it....OR you always having to prompt or ask. He cannot disappear from your whole healing process. Trust me...a few months in...all the kind words, gifts, & date nights will disappear...along with any work.
So, yes - write a list. Think about it seriously - and STICK TO IT...no wiggle room.