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Camalus posted 9/8/2013 07:59 AM

Push back has started. Early this morning WW started saying she didn’t see much use in IC (for her) since her affair was over in ’98. She said she can “kind of” understand the need for MC but thinks the only thing really needed is for me to be in IC.

WW claims she has, since her affair ended, thought over everything that happened, learned to forgive herself and made peace with herself for her “lack of judgment”. She does not feel any additional introspection will help and may even hurt by rehashing the past.

Pardon my language but, what BULLSHIT. I was warned in IC there would likely be what the therapist calls pushback, but I was optimistic after I confronted her and thought this might not happen.

I tried to explain why I feel she needs IC and we need MC. I’m not sure my arguments made any difference. I finally told her I guessed she wasn’t interested in doing the things required to heal our marriage.

I had to leave the room to calm down.

I know I didn’t handle this right, but don’t have a clue on how I should have handled it. I think her pushback indicates she wants to sweep this under the rug and I will not let that happen.

I do not want to issue ultimatums. I like to leave a little wiggle-room, room for negotiation so to speak. But I truly think she needs IC and we need MC.

I’ve got an IC appointment Monday afternoon. Hopefully I can get some advice on how to gently handle the pushback without drawing irrevocable lines in the sand.

k94ever posted 9/8/2013 08:21 AM


I have no advise. I'm sorry she's feeling this way. It takes a very strong person to be able to do the hard work to fix themselves. It kinda sounds like she's not wanting to.

I'm sorry.



confused615 posted 9/8/2013 08:26 AM

It may hurt to "rehash the past?" Hurt who? Her? Oh well. You? You're already hurt.

She's going to want to rugsweep.

To Hell with THAT.

jb3199 posted 9/8/2013 09:01 AM

Well aren't you the lucky one. She has already forgiven and healed herself, so all the hard work is done. Un.effing.believable.

TC, I know that you do not like ultimatums, and you have handled yourself very well so far, but ask yourself, if she is unwilling to meet your needs of her going to IC, is it an eventual dealbreaker? Or can you accept that she will do as she sees fit?

If the answer is that you will never accept this, than her attending IC is an ultimatum---it just doesn't have a specific deadline.

Don't be afraid to draw lines in the sand for what you perceive as your minimum and basic needs. And as far as I am concerned, this is not a remorseful wife that you are dealing with, but a broken one who is able to compartmentalize with the best of them. Zero empathy, and willing to take her disgusting secret with her to her grave....while leaving you and your daughter to deal with the fallout.

This is exactly where the ultimatums need to be applied----right after discovery. The longer that you let her draw this out, the longer that it harms the potential recovery for all involved. I've always hated the "I've forgiven myself" line when no work has been done to find out what was wrong in the first place. That is why murder has no statute of limitation on it...because elapsed time doesn't make everything okay.

She murdered your marriage, and has not faced her consequences. Don't allow that to continue.

[This message edited by jb3199 at 9:02 AM, September 8th (Sunday)]

tushnurse posted 9/8/2013 09:33 AM

So sorry TC. DB is dead on. It's up to you what you are willing to negotiate. I do think that a trip or two to MC since she is willing may be in order. Perhaps then she can gain a little understanding of how you feel and what she really did to her family.

She was able to box it up all nice and neat and put it in storage and go on with life. The real question is after ending it did she truly gain perspective understand what she did and at some fundamental level change who she was? I think we all know the answer to that, but she obviously feels other wise. So I would table IC for now do a couple of MC sessions make her read a few books and then renegotiate in 30 days. She is probably very self involved at this time with her illness and surgeries.

myownmaster posted 9/8/2013 11:37 AM

You don't want to give ultimatums, you want to leave wiggle room and you want to be gentle.

I understand the different dynamics you face with it being an affair that ended long ago...but where your R goes from here will have the same trajectory as most R's.

1. You let her "wiggle" her way out of most of what you want in the hopes of healing the marriage. Things do get rugswept in effect. You either live with it and it eventually isn't brought up anymore and you realize you're fine with that or you begin to really resent her and the marriage becomes worse and worse until there isn't much of a marriage left.

2. You stand up for what you want and she either eventually sees how important it is to do what you are asking for or she continues to scoff at your requests and it may eventually lead to the end of your relationship.

Do you really see another fork in the road here? Again, I understand that you probably don't even want to think about losing her. It did happen a while ago. Being single at 60 isn't the ideal outcome for you. Understandable. However, you're in a state of denial yourself perhaps. Sure, take as much time as you'd like to take the steps you think you need to take, but what outcome do you see exactly with you applying these gentle tactics with wiggle room and such? Just as any WS, she's gonna sniff it out and work your gentleness and unwillingness to possibly blow things up to her advantage.

Tough position you find yourself in. Might not be the perfect happy ending that you're seeking. Deep down, you're gonna know what you really want and what you need to do to get that result. Knowing and doing are two different things, however.

Broken6 posted 9/8/2013 12:19 PM

I hope she comes to her senses. The gift you gave her for staying after such a betrayal is more than anyone in that position should expect. You took the high ground, and no matter what the timing is, I think the WS should always come up to meet it. We are in a situation now where the A was fresh, only ended a little over a month ago, and he is trying to rugsweep. Tells me that we cannot move forward if I continue to bring it up. I printed an article from this site last night about remorse and rugsweeping, and plan to have him read it. I hope that IC can give you the advice you need to coax her back into MC. I realize that during R, both parties need to have their needs met, but in the end, I have to go back to the beginning, how did we even find ourselves here in the first place? The WS needs to look in the mirror. I send hugs, and wish you strength.

Camalus posted 9/9/2013 07:36 AM

Well, I figured it out overnight.

This morning I asked if she had made a decision on IC and MC. She again said she sees no reason to bring up ‘ancient history’.

My response: It is your decision. I am sorry you don’t think our marriage is worth trying to save.

Then I walked out of the room.

Now she says she will make appointments before the end of the day.

tushnurse posted 9/9/2013 07:54 AM

TNC - Good for you.

Sometimes they just have to see how much they can get away with. When you start to feel stronger, and can make statements like that, it makes you realize that you really are dealing with someone who is like a small child.

((((and strength))))

kannan posted 9/9/2013 07:58 AM

so, she cheated because of lack of judgement and she forgived herself for that.

painpaingoaway posted 9/9/2013 08:07 AM

Now she says she will make appointments before the end of the day.
Great news.

TNC, now is the time to ask for everything that you think you will need to heal over the next few years. And yes, it will take years. She needs to understand that.

I would also be very very careful choosing MC/IC, because some can do more harm than good, and that happened in my case, and I can tell you, it was a major setback for us. So, put in place a 'condition' that if after 2 or 3 sessions, either one of you do not like the counselor (for any reason) that you will find another. And yes, some times you will have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find a good MC, that specializes in infidelity issues.

When we left the first asshole MC, I then started calling various ones, and I literally 'interviewed' them over the phone to find out what 'approach' they used toward infidelity issues. Then, at the first session, I took a copy of Linda McDonalds book, "How to Help Your Spouse heal from your Affair", asked them to take it home and read it, (it is super short), and at the second session, I asked if they agreed with the ideas in the book, and if they would be able/willing to guide our healing based on the principles of the book.

I highly recommend doing this. It will save time, money, and a lot of heartache to know right up front whether or not the MC will be able to help you heal your marriage in the way you need to be helped.

(Also, if your wife has not yet read that book, have her read it ASAP). My H literally thanked me for giving him the book, he said it really helped him to understand things from my perspective.

I wish you well my friend.


sinsof thefather posted 9/9/2013 08:11 AM

She again said she sees no reason to bring up ‘ancient history’.

Wow. Where is her empathy? What she has said is all about her. Where do you fit in to all this in her mind? She is healed. She has forgiven herself. It's ancient history to her. Just where are you in her thoughts?

....and the worst of all, she has minimised a 2.5-3 year long betrayal into just a 'lack of judgement' on her part.

tirednconfused, I think you do have to push the IC route because your wife isn't getting it yet. She needs to face what she has done and find out why she did what she did. Also she's not displaying any empathy, and I don't think she has realised yet just how serious this is for the both of you. It's still all about her - and she hasn't realised (or given enough thought to) the fact that this is not 'ancient history' to you.

So I do think you have to be strong about demanding some IC for her. Have you gotten any books for her to read? For example 'How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair: A Compact Manual for the Unfaithful by Linda MacDonald - or maybe some of the articles from our own Healing Library?

[This message edited by sinsof thefather at 8:27 AM, September 9th (Monday)]

Ashland13 posted 9/9/2013 10:25 AM

Nearly Exh said just about those exact words.

I don't want to imply that it's the same for you, but what it meant here was that he was all done with me and choosing OW. He decided he had had enough "discussing it" and he decided the counselors were all wrong about his problems and since OW accepted his crap, that's where he went.

I also tried to "nice" him home, to give room...I made myself physically sick trying to save the life and marriage we had, but none of it worked.

I hope it will work for you.

What I notice now is that he notices my silence more than my words. He took me for granted. No more.

I only hope that you won't give too much of yourself away or make yourself crazy trying to fix things.

And good leaving the room to calm down-unfortunately, it shows that you realize she may not be there to help in your healing. The more quiet or sort of stone-faced you can be around her, the better you may fare. The more drama she sees, the more she may turn.

Unfortunately, also, these things all became signs.

[This message edited by Ashland13 at 10:26 AM, September 9th (Monday)]

GabyBaby posted 9/9/2013 11:50 AM

This morning I asked if she had made a decision on IC and MC. She again said she sees no reason to bring up ‘ancient history’.
My response: It is your decision. I am sorry you don’t think our marriage is worth trying to save.

Then I walked out of the room.

Perfectly handled.

Had you backed down, this would have been the first in a long line of your WW's backpedaling.
You can't "gentle" or "nice" her back into the marriage. Taking a firm, hard stance at the beginning is often the only way to shake the WS out of their flawed thinking.

Good for you!

1Faith posted 9/9/2013 13:45 PM

Stand you ground and set your boundaries.

If IC is a deal breaker for you then that is fine.

Your WW needs to be doing whatever you need to feel like R is possible. WHATEVER.

She is attempting to rug sweep to mitigate her actions and behaviors. She wants to forget her selfish behavior and lies.

Hang in there and be strong.

We are all rooting for you.

Skan posted 9/9/2013 15:50 PM

Nicely handled.

Brass tacks, we cannot make another adult do one damned thing. None of us has that power. But the power we do have, is to make decisions about what we can and cannot accept for ourselves. And to be true to ourselves. So, yes, she may decide at some point that she doesn't want to be transparent to you any more. That she wants her own private passwords. That she doesn't want to go to IC/MC any more. And those are all decisions that she, as an adult, can make for herself. Just as you can make the decision that if she exercises her right, as an adult, to not do any of those things, then you decide, for your own health's sake, that you cannot live with her, cannot be married to her, or whatever works for your own sake.

It's not being mean. It's not being hard-assed. It's about drawing healthy boundaries for yourself.

TheNothing posted 9/9/2013 19:10 PM

You are a very patient man, and her attitude is selfish. Kudos to you for how you handled things and stood firm on your boundaries.

stronger08 posted 9/9/2013 20:05 PM

I love how they forgive themselves so simply. Especially after they drop an atomic bomb on your emotions. A lack of judgment is not locking your car door with your cell in it. Not allowing another man to stick his penis inside of her. I would not care if her A happened 50 years ago. Its still new for you. I'm sorry this woman does not have any remorse. And is probably one of the most selfish people I've heard of. It pisses me off to no end how they package up all their bullshit into neat little boxes and label them with such tags as Lack of judgment, ancient history, mistakes etc. My XWW could not and would not even call what she did affairs. She liked to refer to them as dating or seeing. I finally had enough and told her "When your M and go out and fuck another guy its called having an A you dumb bitch" Don't allow her to play word semantics with you. It might make her sleep better at night. But it certainly does not help you in any way.

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