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trying 180 & feeling we are an inch fr "Over"

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broken0912 posted 9/13/2013 12:00 PM

I am home fr 1 wk vacation 1800 miles fr home & seems we have only regressed further.

I have began the 180, starting a week ago, but backslid during my trip.

Wondering if I should stop giving him letters, asking questions that are still unanswered after a year, stop sharing my thoughts & feelings with him at all. Also, should I still be having sex with him. I refused it last night (1st night home from vacation & I didn't feel safe)During my trip over the phone, he was "done" 2 or 3 times during our conversations.

Nonetheless we had a wonderful intimate evening & I realized how much I had missed my H for so many years. I purposely kept all my ??? on hold to enjoy the evening & wait a day or two before getting into the "issues" again.

At 1:30 am he told me that he deleted all his txt and phone msgs and his call & text log when he got mad while I was gone after a talk. We were on & off, done & not during the course of the week. Once home, we eased back into closeness.

My WS discusses our conversations and interactions with his daughter (who is a serial cheater - and "understands" him). She was in on the betrayal for years and even had a continuing relationship with OW after finding out about OC, whom she wanted a relationship with and wanted my WS to have a relationship with, also, even though he has decided to not be a part of OC's life. OC has a father, OWs XBH who is on birth certificat & has been his father for the last 3-1/2 yrs, since birth. The OW wants my FWS to have a relationship with the OC also. This is OW's way of keeping my FWH in her life. She is in love with him, even though the PA ended over 4 yrs ago. She has never quit trying until she went to Jail in January. My big deal breaker is if the child enters or affects our life in any way in the next 15 yrs

Needless to say she(daughter) and I have had a very strained relationship over the last year. In the beginning when I told her my feelings about the OC (not putting any blame on the baby for anything or on her - the daughter), she sent me a vicious email attacking me then continued in a text to my FWH calling us names. She has said the worst things to me anyone ever has. I have been trying to repair our relationship and I think she has also, for her dad's sake. Yet, he keeps telling her things that make it look like I am blaming her & that she is a problem in our marriage, then he wonders why I hate her? Its all me in his eyes. I don't hate her. She did not cause his affair, though she was one of his enablers and liars. In his eyes she has done nothing wrong - its just me asking him to choose me over her (which is also not the case). I just have asked that he not have conversations with her when I'm not around until we get to a more trusting level. This has never happened. He has cont to have conversations that he can't "remember" with her about me & us & lied about talking to her at all and also lied by omission.

He also has been talking to my best friend & lying by ommission about it.

When I told him this friend is the only person I have to talk to about my feelings and the A, he said she is also the only person he has to talk to. Even though in the beginning he agreed to not have friendships with women anymore no calling or being alone in our house with me not there. He now says I will not dictate who his friends are or who he talks to on the phone.

We are in a 12step program and he has a sponsor that has been thru an A, though not nearly as many betrayals involved or for as long as WS. His sponsor is 2.5 yrs out from A & his marriage is the best it has ever been. He has done everything to help his BS heal from this, but my FWH does not like the things his sponsor tells him about what he should be doing, so he rarely calls him. If it were me I would be talking to the man everyday trying to suck up as much of his experience strength & hope as I could. But my FWH is tired of it all and doesn't want to be uncomfortable let alone in any pain.

He also told me he wasn't going to write anymore about the A to fill in timeline, thoughts feelings or anything else. And last thing before I went to bed he said, all he kows is he doesn't want a divorce???? WTF?

[This message edited by broken0912 at 12:20 PM, September 13th (Friday)]

ladies_first posted 9/13/2013 13:20 PM

I'm confused

I just have asked that he not have conversations with her when I'm not around until we get to a more trusting level.

You told you husband not to talk to his adult daughter?

Sadwife222 posted 9/13/2013 13:38 PM

Your WH is guilty of "emotional incest" with his daughter. Google it. He's putting his selfish needs above her need for a healthy relationship with her father. She should NOT be in your marriage, in any way.

I wouldn't want him talking to her without me around, either, but you're probably fighting a losing battle. He's immature and has elevated his daughter to a position above his wife, a "mini wife", if you will.
My husband did this, too, until I said I'm in first position or I'm outta here. (She also started a sexual relationship of her own and moved away or he may have never changed).

broken0912 posted 9/13/2013 14:53 PM

Ladies, NO I DID NOT ask him not to talk to his adult daughter. I asked that I be there for any conversations they have until the trust has been built back up between the 3 of us. They have had many conversations in the last year usually about me or us, before that it was about her "brother" that she thought he should get to know.

My husband twists my words and tells her stuff that we have discussed that she has no business knowing, things that only increase the distance between she & I. He has twisted my words and told her stuff that isn't what I really said. When I ask what was said in a conversation he usually gives me one innocent generic sentence after they've talked for 10 minutes, always while I am gone and find it on his phone. When pressed, he can't remember what was said. Sometimes little pieces come out accidently when he & I are talking about something else or when I talk to his daughter. I have not asked him to choose between us, I realize even though the bible says that he should choose me above all others. And after all the hurtful and hateful things she has said to me ever since we got married, I have not cussed or called her names or anything of the sort, yet he seems to think I am the one at fault for the reason she and I have a strained relationship.

broken0912 posted 9/13/2013 15:02 PM

Sad, You are exactly right. I think her husband may have mentioned this to me after I found out and he told me about how they had both known since it started.

I told him yesterday that I have not talked to any of my family about this at all, except to my sister who was being used by OW to get to my FWH and pretended to be her friend for years during and after the A, and before I found out. My sister has some mental issues and is very needy. So I asked my sister about it, because she warned me that the OW was after my husband years ago in the midst of the A. When I quizzed her back then, she said she asked OW and she acted like sister was crazy that she would be interested in a man almost old enough to be her grandfather. But my sister said she just could tell, but couldn't give me anything concrete, so I just thought she was imagining things. Yep, I was that stupid.

Anyway, I told him, that if we work this out I don't want my family holding anything against him, once I have forgiven him. He discusses EVERYTHING we are going through with his whole family, including daughter, sister, and neice.

ladies_first posted 9/13/2013 15:08 PM

From your Sept. 11 post:

I have told him I am not comfortable with him visiting her or having long conversations with her when I am not around.

Look at the big picture: Do YOU want to save your marriage?

If the answer is yes, don't let him distract you with the "little picture," i.e., his relationship with his adult daughter.

Good luck. Sounds like you've got a difficult road ahead!


broken0912 posted 9/13/2013 15:22 PM

Ladies, You are right. I have figured out I have no control over him or her and so he can get together with her and any other "friend" he wants to to discuss our relationship and twist the truth to fit, while they continue to tell him how they can't believe I am still not over this in over a year and tell him that he does not to tell me the whole story of the A and that I am just unreasonable and never going to get over it, so he might as well move on. So I will let him hang himself with all of this, because I can't save my marriage by myself, and with him continuing to lie to me and not tell me what happened for the 6-8 years of our marriage that we were living a lie.

I just read a post on the Wayward side about people who are NOT FRIENDS OF THE MARRIAGE - and his daughter is the biggest one, so yeah I have a problem with being left out and not being told what they have said about me & about us. He agreed to total disclosure and transparency and has since decided there will be no more disclosure and the only transparency I will receive is knowing where he is going, unless it is to his daughters house and then he will lie about it, so I don't try to go with him, since what he does is none of my business anyway. After all its been a year and why am I not over this VERY LTA yet?

And the first time I find out he went to her house and saw the OC, I am done. I want to save my marriage, but no longer willing to sacrifice myself, like I have for the last 10 years of our marriage.

He says he is willing to do anything to save our marriage "within reason" which means he is willing to spend time with me and have sex and sit together on the couch and watch tv with me. That's it period.

broken0912 posted 9/13/2013 15:32 PM

I have decided to stop asking who he is talking to and what he has said since starting the 180, but would like to know should I stop giving him letters & telling him how I think and feel about A - Stop talking about it all together - stop asking for him to tell me what happened before during & after - How what when where? and should I NOT have sex with him?

Knowing posted 9/13/2013 15:47 PM

To answer your questions, yes, doing the 180 is literally turning completely away from him, "an about face", and concentrating solely on you.

No more letters, no more questions, no more sex. Your life who do you want to spend time with? What do you want to do with your time? He doesn't exist.

Maybe print the 180 out and keep it in your purse? Learn it by heart.

ladies_first posted 9/13/2013 15:51 PM

Again: Do YOU want to save your marriage? Or, should I say, is this your idea of a good marriage:

He says he is willing to do anything to save our marriage "within reason" which means he is willing to spend time with me and have sex and sit together on the couch and watch tv with me. That's it period.

You really have to decide if you plan to stay in the aforementioned marriage. That'll basically answer your question:

should I NOT have sex with him?

broken0912 posted 9/13/2013 16:05 PM

Knowing, Wow that does sound extreme, but I am desperate to feel better.

Ladies, No I am not happy with the marriage as it is. Our goal has been (or at least I thought it was "our" goal) to heal from the A and in a year, the marriage is not going to be the marriage we are trying for. So no, this is not enough, and I have decided to do the 180 for one reason to gain acceptance for what I am afraid we are headed for. Another is I want to feel better about myself. 3rd, I know its not supposed to be a manipulation tool, but I hope he will see the light and decide that I am worth the effort that he needs to fix what he screwed up. Though I am very aware of my part in the problems we have had in our marriage, which I never thought were that bad.

However, looking back I am see it was more dysfunctional than I ever realized. I really thought we had a much better relationship than any other couple that we knew. I was so delusional and absent for so long and am suddenly shocked that I didn't realize how bad our issues really were.

And still cannot believe I did not see all the signs that were oh so very very obvious. Too embarrassing to even tell. I thought of her as our daughter and just could never imagine I had any reason not to trust him. I could tell she loved him, but I thought it was like a father.

Someone just shoot me

ladies_first posted 9/13/2013 16:27 PM

Personally, sex bonds me to my partner. I've heard MC say "sex is the glue that holds a marriage together."

I have decided to do the 180 for one reason to gain acceptance for what I am afraid we are headed for. Another is I want to feel better about myself. 3rd, I know its not supposed to be a manipulation tool, but I hope he will see the light and decide that I am worth the effort that he needs to fix what he screwed up.

The 180 is the antithesis to bonding, so sex is NOT recommended.

ladies_first posted 9/13/2013 16:33 PM

The 180:
Don't pursue reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.
No frequent phone calls.
Don't point out "good points" in marriage.
Don't follow her/him around the house.
Don't encourage or initiate discussion about the future.
Don't ask for help from the family members of your WS.
Don't ask for reassurances.
Don't buy or give gifts.
Don't schedule dates together.
Don't keep saying, "I Love You!" Because if you have a brain in your head, he/she is at this particular moment, not very loveable.
Do more then act as if you are moving on with your life; begin moving on with your life!
Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and independent.
Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go out with friends, enjoy old hobbies, find new ones! But stay busy!
When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words. Don't push any issue? No matter how much you want to!
If you're in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING. Seem totally uninterested.
Your partner needs to believe that you have awakened to the fact that "they (the WS)" are serious concerning their assertions as to the future (or lack thee of) of your marriage. Thus, you are you are moving on with your life? with out them!
Don't be nasty, angry or even cold - Just pull yourself back. Don't always be so available? for anything! Your spouse will notice. More important, he/she will notice that you're missing.
No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment? Make yourself be someone they would want to be around. Not a moody, needy, pathetic individual but a self assured individual secure in the knowledge that they have value.
All questions about the marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may not be for quite a while). Initiate no such conversation!
Do not allow yourself to lose your temper. No yelling, screaming or name calling EVER. No show of temper! Be cool, act cool; be in control of the only thing you can control? YOURSELF!
Don't be overly enthusiastic.
Do not argue when they tell you how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger). In fact, refuse to argue at all!
Be patient and learn to not only listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you? HEAR what it is that they are saying! Listen and then listen some more!
Learn to back off, keep your mouth shut and walk away when you want to speak out, no matter what the provocation. No one ever got themselves into trouble by just not saying anything.
Take care of you. Exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil.
Be strong, confident and learn to speak softly.
Know that if you can do this 180, your smallest CONSISTENT action will be noticed far more than any words you can say or write.
Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are feeling totally desperate and needy.
Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse. It's not always about you! More to the point, at present they just don't care!
Do not believe any of what you hear them say and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives and do so in the most strident tones imaginable. Try to remember that they are also hurting and afraid. Try to remember that they know what they are doing is wrong and so they will say anything they can to justify their behavior.
Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel. It "ain't over till it's over!"
Do not backslide from your hard earned changes. Remain consistent! It is the consistency of action and attitude that delivers the message.
When expressing your dissatisfaction with the actions of the wayward party, never be judgmental, critical or express moral outrage. Always explain that your dissatisfaction is due to the pain that the acts being committed are causing you as a person. This is the kind of behavior that will cause you to be a much more attractive and mysterious individual. Further it SHOWS that you are NOT afraid to move on with your life. Still more important, it will burst their positive little bubble; the one in which they believe that they can always come back to you in case things don't work out with the OM/OW."

Simple posted 9/13/2013 16:44 PM

I honestly don't think you're in true R.

Wow that does sound extreme, but I am desperate to feel better.

I don't think you were doing the 180 to begin with. I also think that there is a possibility that you're only doing 180 to provoke a response with him or manipulate him. That's not 180. Look at this post:

The 180 is to give you strength, help you feel better and not be so reactive based on WS moods and wants.

I think you have to ask yourself: what kind of person do you respect? Do you think you are this person?

For me, gaining confidence in myself regardless of my FWH is what helped me heal. I felt I owe to myself to be a better person and learn from this and be able to look back and respect myself. I've felt I needed to do this and the people here in SI helped me with this. To each his own, I just hope we are able to give you some light bulb moment every now and then.

Hugs your way.

broken0912 posted 9/13/2013 18:00 PM

[This message edited by broken0912 at 6:14 PM, September 13th (Friday)]

broken0912 posted 9/13/2013 18:25 PM

I just started 180 when I left for trip a week ago. I think I mentioned that I hadn't done very well at all while I was gone. but may have deleted that part when I edited my post to make it shorter. Knowing if you will look up a couple of posts, I explained my real 3 reasons for wanting to do the 180. However, yours sums it up nicely.

We seemed to be in R for the 1st 6 mths, except that he still couldn't "remember" many details of the A. We went on vacation in May & had a great time, but upon arriving home, I had what I refer to as a relapse, I went into an ANGER stage, madder than I had ever been. After he went to bed I was back to sobbing hysterically in my closet floor until I was tired enough to go to bed around 4am. Then started to think of all the things I didn't know about A, and didn't know why he wouldn't try harder to "remember" them. About 6-8 weeks ago when I asked questions that i had already asked or commented on something regarding the A or timeline thereof, he started telling me he didn't remember it, that he didn't know where I got that particular info or he must have just told me that to "shut me up."

This left me knowing nothing more than I did on the Dday, which was that he had an affair with my best friend for a "long time" preceded by an undetermined "fooling around" period. It ended in OC in summer 2009 & he had told about 30-40 people while it was going on & then another 20 found out after it ended. Everyone, it seemed, except me, knew.

Since then I printed out a timeline of our life from 2005 (because it didn't start before then) to 2011 (which is when she stole 1100.00 from our house and WS was so grateful that he finally had a good reason to get her out of our lives, because for the previous 1.5 yrs she had been coming over very regularly, even after he had broke it off, and for some reason he thought they could go back to being friends, but she was in love, so there was no going back for her.

2 wks ago I gave him a letter explaining that w/o knowing the whole story, I wouldn't be able to move on in our marriage. He started trying to "remember" and write, so we did once again narrow down the general time it began and a couple of other things, but he didn't get far.

With his change in attitude & effort & fear of feeling any more pain, I have to do the 180, because I cannot continue in the same marriage we had before and that seems to be where we are headed, except that my head does not quit thinking, playing mind movies, conversations, being shocked, hurt and angry all over again all day long.

So as much as I do not want a divorce, I have accepted the fact that we may very well end up there, and I need to prepare myself for it. I used to be such a strong independent woman who never counted on a man for anything. When I married FWH, I made the mistake my mother warned me about when I was young, & became willing to let a man take care of me financially. But I know I have it in me to start over and be better than I've ever been, but I sure don't want to at nearly 50 years old.

Thanks both of you so much for your words of wisdom. I really expected to be so much further by now, but also expected his help. And Ladies, I will print out the 180 and Knowing, I actually officially started 180 today and haven't yet failed at any of it

[This message edited by broken0912 at 6:37 PM, September 13th (Friday)]

ladies_first posted 9/13/2013 18:57 PM

Go to your library or bookstore and get "Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay: A Step-by-Step Guide to Help You Decide Whether to Stay In or Get Out of Your Relationship" by Mira Kirshenbaum.

When you're not reading it and mentally answering the 36 questions designed to help you explore your options, leave the book out in prominent locations where he's sure to see it.

Call a lawyer and set up an introductory meeting to learn your rights.

broken0912 posted 9/13/2013 23:59 PM

Ladies, Thanks for the info. I will go to library. Can I ask are you in R? and how long since your d-day? thanks again!

ladies_first posted 9/14/2013 08:25 AM

I wanted to R.
He wanted a second OW in 2009.
D final in 2010.

July 31, 2013, would have been our 20th wedding anniversary.

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