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Our MC told us at our last meeting that we were attacking this problem from opposite sides, butting heads and we were not on the same team.

You see my WH always sees both sides to everything, always plays devils advocate etc...

In this case, where he firmly states there was no PA, he has a hard time believing that OW was truly after him. He says that if she was, she had ample opportunity to make it known and she never did. Most of her texts were those that could be a double entendre, taken one way or the other.

I have always said that women often do this. THey throw out hints and see what they get back. I never for one moment thought she did not know what she was doing.

Because of this, my WH has defended OW- almost. He really refused to see her as an enemy. Reallly said that if she did want him, she would have made a move.

Anyway, the MC, after only hearing a few short stories about OW and things she did, said that it is obvious that she had targeted my WH. Clear that she found him very appealing, liked his company, etc...

He told WH that any defense of the OW was not an effective strategy with his wife (me).

It was a MAJOR turning point. MC said that no one could prove 100% what her motives were, but that we can all look at what she did and we can make an educated guess.

Further, the MC pointed out when my WH confronted her, told her that things had become too casual between them and they needed to go back to business only, SHE DID NOT RESPECT THOSE BOUNDARIES. He said that most people would have concluded that I had some objection to their relationship and that my husband did as well. MC said most people would have respected those boundaries. THey would have said to themselves "Gee, I do not want to get mixed up in that."

She did not. This way of looking at it has made a huge difference for my WH. He has now said that he sees he was placing blame on me for not getting over it or for making too much out of it, rather than on her. He was giving her the benefit of the doubt, rather than looking at the fact that if it acts like a duck and quacks like a duck.....

I really wonder if this is what Sisoon meant when he said he thought my WH and I had a communication issue?

Hmmm...

I have to say, after a bad first round with a useless MC, this one has proved to be pretty invaluable after only three sessions.

Wh has now stated that we are on the same team. His view has shifted. OW is an enemy of the marriage. He said he was indifferent to her before. Now he dislikes her.

Can I hope?

I think it is a good start and I hope he continues to see where his actions as well as the OW's were questionable at best. He also needs to take his own ownership of the EA and what made him think that that type of relationship was OK while it was happening. Yes, she may have been after him, but he was making her think that she had a chance by his responses.

Sounds like your H made good progress. According to Glass, Boundary issues are behind many of the As that happen in good Ms. BTW, my W's ow repeatedly violated boundaries, and my W never stopped her.

What I really mean by 'communication issue' is that the communicating parties somehow are pretty much not talking the same language. If it's a real communication issue, I don't think it's one party's fault or the other's - it's just that you're not getting through to each other. A 3rd party can help get the communicating parties unstuck.

(Of course, it could be that one party really wants to lie to the other party, which isn't a 'communication issue' in my book.)

I think that sounds like a breakthrough!

And sure you can hope.

Good luck!

Thank you everyone.

My WH does take resposnsibility for his actions. This was one sticking point for me. I have an real issue with not feeling first because of FOO. This issue was a hotbed for us because I viewed it as him choosing her over me.

At any rate, his view has shifted and I hope it stays.

MC sure does bring up a bunch of unwanted feelings though. Now his 'seeing the light' has caused me to question his motives for defending her.

I went to IC today to discuss with her. She told me this is normal. MC stirs up anxiety as we are forced to deal with things we would rather not.

I hope this is the truth.

Not gonna make any assumptions but in my case there was two issues as to why she defended him.

1- soon after dday she was in the fog in love and actually thought and expressed to me that her and OM would go back to being friends again without any problems and that I should not worry. Epic Fail!!! I objected obviously.

2 - Because of some personal issues she later blamed herself 100% and accused herself of manipulating OM for control. So he was blameless. Last time I checked he volunteered for it all. No one was forced.

So why does he defend her? (Or did). My guess is he's still in the fog a bit.

[This message edited by 2married2quit at 6:26 PM, September 18th (Wednesday)]

Because he said nothing ever happened. No PA. No EA because every definition you find says that the people share things with eachother that they are not sharing with their spouses.

He only admits to being on a slippery slope...ie- they talked to much, communciation was picking up, texting, emailing etc... I searched and searched. I could find nothing. They never talked about how they felt for each other, for their partners etc...

He also says that if she wanted something she could have made it known, many times. They worked together closely, away from me, everyone.

Obviously, I have a hard time proving anything else and I obviously have a hard time believing his stupid story or I still wouldn't be talking about it two years later.

Look everything she did was something you could take one of two ways...you could think, hmmm that was weird or you could say it was nothing. I think she was very clever. I don't think she was going to put it out there and jump on him naked, if his story is accurate. She had too much to lose.

The question is, do I throw away a M on something I cannot prove. I have to take his word which is what my IC says I have to do if I want to move forward.

A big component is that he didn;t think she did anything because she wasn't overt. At the time, he didn;t think anything of the things she did that were questionable. He didn;t think they were questionable even after.

Obviously a huge issue for me. And I am unsettled by it. The MC validating my feelings makes me see that what I saw was valid. So why did he not see it that way?

Makes me question what the hell is going on now. This has almost taken me back to square one...distrusting everything up to this point. That is why I asked for IC session today.

We have another session (MC) on friday. Do I state this there? I am so confused. I am beginning to think the whole thing is a dealbreaker again and I cannot fathom how a M could really unravel over an EA?! KWIM?

But its happening....

[This message edited by brokensmile322 at 7:16 PM, September 18th (Wednesday)]

No EA because every definition you find says that the people share things with eachother that they are not sharing with their spouses.

I struggled with this, too. My solution was realizing that a relationship can be unhealthy and hurt the M even though it doesn't meet the definition of an A.

By now, your H should realize or be close to realizing that he let this woman violate his boundaries again and again, and that's the problem - that he let her violate his boundaries.

That doesn't meet the definition of an EA, but it most definitely meets the definition of betraying himself - and betraying you, too. (Why is it betraying you? Because IMO the M contract and non-M commitment both imply that each partner will maintain boundaries, and your H didn't.)

If this fits for you, maybe it would help to talk about 'betrayal' instead of 'affair'. (Maybe not, though.)

Thank you for your insightful post Sisoon. I always love what you come up with for me to think about.

Yes, perhaps I will start using the word 'betrayal'. And yes, my WH did allow her to step over his boundaries that he made, over and over.

Recently, he did take a stance with regards to her and a business request she made. He did well and I think it was because of this shift in thinking.

At the same time, another woman at work challenged boundaries with him and he failed. These are not PA boundaries, these are boundaries I think are necessary if we are to move forward in R together. I am assuming this will be part of our MC session tomorrow. I guess we will discuss whether or not I am controlling or whether these are logical boundaries any person should have.

In my IC session this week, I told her that I am coming to a place where I know what I can live with and what I can't. My WH having more solid boundaires is essential to me now. A non negotiable. I am not even mad anymore if he doesn't want that or is not capable of doing it. I just want to know what he will or will not do. To me there is no right or wrong answer. If his answer isn't on the same page with me, I will wish him well. I want him to be happy. I no longer want to fight about it. I just want us to both be happy. If it is not with me and with more concrete boundaries, then I wish him well.

How's that for growth?

Sisoon speaks wisely...again. I almost didn't post, but did want to mention a response to this...

I have always said that women often do this. THey throw out hints and see what they get back. I never for one moment thought she did not know what she was doing.

I was very much like your husband on this one....never really recognized these interactions with woman in the dangerous light they are made in.

These subtle yet real 'feelers" are just that....real.

Since my wifes affair, I have noted these....and even played a little into them, but then quickly backed away. Temptations were real, but that was at about my 6 month mark. Now I don't play around with them at all.

These feelers were put out there by women I would be attracted too....not the $100 hair-dos weekly, tanning bed, heavy eye makeup traditional look-at-me girls. I am talking about well groomed, tactful women....some of which I don't think fully understand the fire they are playing with. It appears there are a number of affairs that start out this way...just enjoying each others company in what appears to be a harmless way. My wifes AP was not harmless...I do think he knew pretty well what he was after, he went for it, and got it. Yeah, my wife did too....but at the very beginning her A from her standpoint started out harmless.

Glad to hear your husband is starting to subscribe that all other women could be a threat to your marriage. My wife subscribes to this theory regarding other men...she has renewed boundaries.

Glad you found a good MC...we are in between counselors now. My wife is taking the lead on finding another...but its been a month since we have been to one. Our old one did good things with us individually, but was just okay at bringing us onto the same team.

You are strong brokensmile322...this post is encouraging and I see you both growing together through this experience.

God be with you both.

Met with the MC again today. He is very good. He started with...."are you ok" to me.

He is very wise.

I think my WH is done. He says he has given all he can. He has nothing more. WH is angry that he had this breakthrough and I, instead of being ecstatic, I am angry that it took him 2 years to finally see the OW in a negative light or enemy of the marriage.

The MC called that a 'delayed reaction'. I am angry that he put me through hell for two years defending her actions. WH is wanting to celebrate that he finally got it and he doesn't understand why I am not happy.

This.Shit.Sucks.

MC thinks that our M has a pulse and something to save. Says we are in a boat, a damaged boat, traveling around in a storm and we cannot find our way. He says we are both rowing in opposite directions, getting more and more frustrated with each other as we go.

We are so angry with each other. I am not good at walking away in these instances. I guess I need to get better at it.

I have some major FOO issues as to why this has affected me so much. One of them was that I was always second to my sister growing up. The other was that my opinion and thoughts were never seen as important and my feelings not validated.

As you can imagine, my WH's betrayal felt like all of these things. I did not feel as important as OW. When I expressed my disapproval of their relationship, my feelings were not validated and my opinion did not matter.

MC said we are struggling with the concept of feeling 'most special'. ANd yes, that is it for me. I do not feel most special or my WH's first priority.

I gave several concrete behaviors of my WH as examples of how I don;t feel most important to WH. MC said that it is a guttural feeling not an action. I challenged him on this. The guttural feeling comes from a person's actions, no? We ran out of time so I am going to have to press the MC further on this.

Thanks for listening peeps. My head hurts.

Hang in there brokensmile322.

Some of my deepest, darkest moments were followed by my own personal breakthroughs.

I also relate to the feeling of having a MC session end too soon.

Curious your husband shows emotion towards your lack of enthusasim for his break through. Curious in the fact that I, perhaps falsely, assumed most fWS are so disconnected with a BS that they are not really affected by how we react to them. Can you honestly think about how he would have reacted to your reaction 5 years ago? 2 yrs ago, immediately following your DD? Is it different? If yes, he is in a different spot...that is good...right? (not talking about the affair...talking about how he would react to your dissapproval...how he reacted to your emotion regardless of the type. Seems like many WS disconnect from their spouse BEFORE and A started...it happened in my marrige)

IMO this is a good sign...it shows at least an entry level desire by him to re-engage you. And speaks a bit to his desire to once again gain your approval and respect.

Apathy...that is the death blow to a relationship. Neither of you are showing signs of apathy. Tired, angry, sad...all yes. But no apathy. Given the crazy making of this stuff I would differ to the third party opinion of a quality MC on if your M is truly dead or not.

It is tough shit....the toughest I have ever experienced. Maybe grab a feel good movie or a quick, easy, non-affair related book to give your mind a mental break.

Gently....your husband DID have a breakthrough. I totally get the rage you feel that it took him so long...I really do. If you can find any energy to be more neutral in your reaction to this work on his part it will serve you well. You dont have to be happy...but fWS are having their own internal battles going on...I think it is beneficial to try to NOT through fuel on that battle.

I know this is not fair. I know it hurts. I know you have sleepless nights....dont eat regularly....I totally relate. I also know many BS also have internal battles other than being betrayed (FOO issues are sometimes in play for decades...and that is hard for a BS to face and even harder to admit and work on).

It is tiring.

I will say a specific prayer for your both.

I have learned that just because you lack the energy now and take a break from "heavy lifting" that progress often keeps moving. I can't explain how this is...but it is. I have witnessed this.

God be with you.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 3:19 PM, September 20th (Friday)]