Our BH are not any more perfect now than who they were before. They were not angels, they were not idolized by all. They were human like ourselves.
I guess part of me is saying really. So all the things my BH forgot to tell me and lied tome about Im suppose to think he's perfect. That all the 'bad' things he's done and now change makes it ok for him to say his two cents about others and not be a hypocrite. Hmm really
How about some reality.
Mine had issues before, still there ain't going away . But they are not a problem of course. Their perfect. We are the fucked up ones. Hmmm. I don't know a betrayal is a betrayal plain and simple. A lie is a lie. Theft is theft, Bad behavior is bad and cheating whether married or not or if its an exit or not. IS cheating. WE all have done wrong in the past we all need to remember that.
Im suppose to think he's perfect.
"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." - J. Wayne
"There are times when our reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind." Patrick Rothfuss
I want to tread really carefully here.
So, I think in an honest self-assessment most BS would say, "No, I wasn't a perfect spouse." Hell, I'm sure some of us were maybe even subpar spouses. I don't know that anyone is saying that you should think or say that your BH is/was "perfect." Unless, as unangie asked, he's saying that's he's perfect.
I don't know a betrayal is a betrayal plain and simple. A lie is a lie.
I can only speak to my experience pre-A. I was probably a 9.5/10 as a father, and like a 6/10 as a husband (using standard societal marital expectations). I didn't forget birthdays or anniversaries or anything, but I'd be lying if I said I tried every single day to make the Best. Marriage. Evah. That being said, my wife wasn't a perfect spouse....but I didn't hold it against her...I just figured in marriage you forgive and forget. One of the biggest shocks for me when my wife went off the rails while the A was going on (but before I knew) was that my wife would pick fights about something really simple and petty, and then explode that into a list of all the things I'd ever done to piss her off.
But it's never that simple.
Most times, for every WS who has an affair and breaks out a list of all past perceived slights, there is a BS with a list just as long that now has "cheated on me" attached to the bottom. (That's damn-near plagarism from another poster here, but if I paraphrased it wouldn't have done him justice.) In my situation, my wife would roll out a vague list of ways I was "making her unhappy" without ever indicating ways to remedy the situation. I offered MC a couple of times, and she turned down that option...so I started to tune her out. Now, back to the BS self-assessment. Some of the things my wife called me on were legitimate gripes, things about myself I'd really like to work on anyway. Some were imagined. I'm working on the ones I want to fix, and the other ones....eh, not so much. I guess my follow up question to you would be: if things were so awful pre-A, then why'd you stick around?
"Look, as sentient meat, however illusory our identities are, we craft those identities by making value judgments. Everybody judges, all the time. Now, you got a problem with that, you’re living wrong."
Yes I know when I bring up past behaviors of his is sounds like blame shifting. I understand that. And I know it comes out do to my defense that I am not any more worthless ad a human being than the rest of the world. I know that sounds sucky. The thing is I have learnt the only person can give me love is myself and I am fighting myself to be a person who I love. I have learnt the hard way. I cannot allow others to bring me down more. When it's been 40 years to be open and honest and love myself for my flaws. I guess. Like I said it's a rant. I more than know I have destroyed his world. O live there too. I see. Feel and live it day in and out.
I will love my BH. And work to rebuild. I will not be living though as a person without the right to thot.
No different than some one who. Has recovered from addictions. You learn. You live and you can teach cause you know what it does to people. Sorry been a long day month. Trying to grow and be true to thot. And not just brown nose. Now that is being fake
Part of this attitude may depend on how much blame shifting you did early on. If, with honest reflection, blame shifting and gaslighting were defense mechanisms then I think one can expect to see more of this attitude.
For example, I recently asked my wife why she is now so angry with OM. It's a tough but fair question. One that I think she needs to reflect upon.
She quickly tried to derail the conversation by vaguely referring to other pre-A issues that she has forgiven (apparently to the degree that she can't articulate them).
The thing is, this is such a pattern that when I asked the question I was actually waiting for that response.
I don't know whether any of this is applicable to your situation, just food for thought.
Was I perfect? No.
Was I close to perfect? No.
Of course not, I was a human being, fallible, bringing with me to my marriage my life and knowledge that I had. Neither was my wife.
However, I never expected her to be "perfect" or for my marriage to be perfect. Unfortunately, she had a messed up view of what marriage should be like, more like something out of a TV show than real life. In counseling, it came out that many children who came from homes like hers, after growing up, would have these unrealistic expectations about relationships, and then act out destructively in their relationships because of this.
The reason being that they feel the marriage problems, which all marriages have, are due to the spouse not valuing them sufficiently "if he/she really loved me this wouldn't happen".
Which simply is not true or realistic.
If I had a dollar for every, "Why can't you just make me happy" speech I'd be rich. You are the only one that can make you happy.
For the longest time she wanted me to admit I wasn't perfect in the marriage. I told her the same thing, every single time, "of course I wasn't. I made mistakes, and if I could redo things, I would certainly do them better. But that has nothing to do with your affair. I didn't beat you, I didn't keep money from you, I didn't gamble, I didn't abuse substances, I came home every night from work. But was I perfect, no. That has nothing to do with your affair."
Which infuriated her, unfortunately, when I would have liked her to reflect on it and make some tough insights on herself.
Sounds to me like you're getting tangled in the weeds. MC can help for sure. But you also need to feel like you're a team again and battling something together. You can't do that when you're wanting him to admit to all his faults. He obviously isn't ready to face the marriage issues, probably because he's too busy dealing with the pain and shock of the A. Give it time, but work hard on yourself.
If you're ranting here, you care. Good luck, you obviously want this to work.
Me: fBH 46
Her: exWW 42
DDay: Nov 1, 2012
Divorced: September 17, 2013
The thing is I have learnt the only person can give me love is myself and I am fighting myself to be a person who I love.
Our BH are not any more perfect now than who they were before. They were not angels.
Careful with the "they" statements, because you only know your own situation.
I have been told and freaked on that I don't have the right to discuss or voice my opinion on unacceptable behavior of others because I cheated.
There was a thread in Wayward a week or two ago, about hipocracy. Yes, Joanh, you have every right to voice your opinion, but that doesn't relieve you of responsibility for considering how your words land with the listener.
Yes, most (all?) marriages have issues. I've seen BSs opine that an A wipes all the red out of their (BS's) pre-A ledger and I have mixed feelings about that. To fully R, IMO one cannot ignore the pre-A M issues, yet it seems unfair for the WS to ever bring those up. Is that sort of what you're expressing here? You're angry or frustrated by BH's reaction when you bring up anything that's bothering you in the M?
However that is not an excuse or reason for my affair. I did it because I was weak I used it for an escape of reality it was m drug of choice . I see that. I am not in anyway blaming him for my affairs. My choice my decisions. my weakness is being able to justify to myself.
Now the seeing the BS as angels or awesome people,. Mine , Yes its amazing he is still here. I know I woud be too if it was the other way around. I know that because of who I am. I am amazed at his ability to be here and he does say he still loves me. I am just not going to put him on a pedestal that he had me on before. He has strength and he has a lot of thie things I find important in a person and I do love him more than I realized. Which really fucking sucks. Sorry but that's how I feel. And your right I can only do in my situation. But for me to say he's better than me, he is better than me in the sitch he didn't cheat on me.(Now hes done to others but justifies. Understand what I am saying now) Each one of us has been either lied to and most of us have been betrayed and been the betrayer. It does not define you for life and it does not make one person better than the other.
As to him not listening to pre A issues I kow he's not ready
For myself, I owned the poor job I was doing as a W before the A, and committed to doing better. I made a plan with specific actions and I followed it, even when I didn't feel it. Immediately after DDay. And despite my H's reluctance to let go of the A and to do something about the poor job he was doing as a H. I am certain there are other BS and WS who stepped up, as well. So it feels bad to me when a WS rants on BSs in general for acting "perfect."
That's my take on it, anyway.
We ARE perfect (everyone is) based on our own programming (for example, childhood experiences & trauma). We cannot be better than we are because we don't "know" how to be. You may identify that you want to be a better person, but you need to learn new code to change.
Basically - we don't know what we don't know. Others may tell us or show us, but until we can actually learn it, we will have no idea how to accomplish it (no matter what is).
And if you consider those of use who have had issues (self-esteem, abandonment, depression, addiction, etc) for most of our lives, you can't expect to learn the better behavior overnight.
Yes, it's "computer-ish" sounding, but it made a lot of sense to me.
I guess part of me is tired of being the piece POS all the time.
I bet you are. You should be. Very tired of thinking that. You can't save and work on what you don't value.
Joanh, I know you are focusing on yourself and working through your choices. Don't ignore his either. I'm concerned about some of the things you have in your posts. Is he talking to another woman?
Part of healing as we work through this shit is to stop making bad unhealthy choices, ALL of them, and that includes accepting unhealthy choices from other's. Don't care about the alphabet combination you sport on this site. That's just a solid truth. Don't accept then from yourself or others. That's what surviving this shit show is all about, honestly. It's not accepting shame, eyes down, ashes and sack cloth accepting crumbs and blows. That's honestly affair behavior as well, just kept inhouse. You're betraying yourself with each blow regardless of who delivers it.
Remember. In order to surviving anything you have to live through it. Abandoning yourself is soul suicide. It's what we do when we cheat others AND ourselves.
'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth