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Ok a little rant today

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Joanh posted 9/21/2013 18:29 PM

Im sure iwill be yelled here.
Here is a reality check to me any ways.

Our BH are not any more perfect now than who they were before. They were not angels, they were not idolized by all. They were human like ourselves.
I guess part of me is saying really. So all the things my BH forgot to tell me and lied tome about Im suppose to think he's perfect. That all the 'bad' things he's done and now change makes it ok for him to say his two cents about others and not be a hypocrite. Hmm really

How about some reality.
Mine had issues before, still there ain't going away . But they are not a problem of course. Their perfect. We are the fucked up ones. Hmmm. I don't know a betrayal is a betrayal plain and simple. A lie is a lie. Theft is theft, Bad behavior is bad and cheating whether married or not or if its an exit or not. IS cheating. WE all have done wrong in the past we all need to remember that.

Aubrie posted 9/21/2013 19:16 PM

Im suppose to think he's perfect.
Did he say this? Or is that how you feel? That you aren't "allowed" to be angry because you cheated.

Unagie posted 9/21/2013 20:03 PM

I get xSO was the epitome of this. He could do no wrong once I confessed. Unemployment, never actively looking for a job, broken promises, always late, never took an interest in what was important to me...and this was before his A. After because he was never physically with someone (so he says) all his behaviors, including him falling in love with someone else 7 years ago long before my A cannot be mentioned or hurt me because its not as bad as what I did. So it does happen, that mindset, but it doesn't mean you have to accept it. It's been said here being betrayed doesn't give you a cape and make you impenetrable to being at fault for your own behaviors. Do keep in mind though that he may not be willing to discuss anything but tbe A for awhile. Hope it helps.

Ascendant posted 9/21/2013 20:19 PM

BH here.

I want to tread really carefully here.

So, I think in an honest self-assessment most BS would say, "No, I wasn't a perfect spouse." Hell, I'm sure some of us were maybe even subpar spouses. I don't know that anyone is saying that you should think or say that your BH is/was "perfect." Unless, as unangie asked, he's saying that's he's perfect.

I don't know a betrayal is a betrayal plain and simple. A lie is a lie.
Wouldn't these two things contradict each other? If a lie is a lie, isn't a betrayal a betrayal? I think that it starts to get tricky in the wake of an affair for the WS to start listing all the things 'wrong' with the BS, or that the BS has 'done wrong', because it often comes across as either so much blameshifting, or sounds like "you didn't do X, so I did Z" to a BS.

I can only speak to my experience pre-A. I was probably a 9.5/10 as a father, and like a 6/10 as a husband (using standard societal marital expectations). I didn't forget birthdays or anniversaries or anything, but I'd be lying if I said I tried every single day to make the Best. Marriage. Evah. That being said, my wife wasn't a perfect spouse....but I didn't hold it against her...I just figured in marriage you forgive and forget. One of the biggest shocks for me when my wife went off the rails while the A was going on (but before I knew) was that my wife would pick fights about something really simple and petty, and then explode that into a list of all the things I'd ever done to piss her off.

But it's never that simple.

Most times, for every WS who has an affair and breaks out a list of all past perceived slights, there is a BS with a list just as long that now has "cheated on me" attached to the bottom. (That's damn-near plagarism from another poster here, but if I paraphrased it wouldn't have done him justice.) In my situation, my wife would roll out a vague list of ways I was "making her unhappy" without ever indicating ways to remedy the situation. I offered MC a couple of times, and she turned down that I started to tune her out. Now, back to the BS self-assessment. Some of the things my wife called me on were legitimate gripes, things about myself I'd really like to work on anyway. Some were imagined. I'm working on the ones I want to fix, and the other, not so much. I guess my follow up question to you would be: if things were so awful pre-A, then why'd you stick around?

Joanh posted 9/21/2013 21:02 PM

I have been told and freaked on that I don't have the right to discuss or voice my opinion on unacceptable behavior of others because I cheated. My point is all humans at one time or another have done something to make them a hypocrite. I'm saying with what I have found obout my BH past puts him the space as I for being able to condem me for speaking my opinion. So saying that does it make it that my BH carries that cross for life and can't speak about opinions. I don't know.

Yes I know when I bring up past behaviors of his is sounds like blame shifting. I understand that. And I know it comes out do to my defense that I am not any more worthless ad a human being than the rest of the world. I know that sounds sucky. The thing is I have learnt the only person can give me love is myself and I am fighting myself to be a person who I love. I have learnt the hard way. I cannot allow others to bring me down more. When it's been 40 years to be open and honest and love myself for my flaws. I guess. Like I said it's a rant. I more than know I have destroyed his world. O live there too. I see. Feel and live it day in and out.
I will love my BH. And work to rebuild. I will not be living though as a person without the right to thot.
No different than some one who. Has recovered from addictions. You learn. You live and you can teach cause you know what it does to people. Sorry been a long day month. Trying to grow and be true to thot. And not just brown nose. Now that is being fake

Later posted 9/21/2013 21:20 PM

Without details it is hard not to project. But, since you are speaking generally about BS's I feel a little latitude is in order.

Part of this attitude may depend on how much blame shifting you did early on. If, with honest reflection, blame shifting and gaslighting were defense mechanisms then I think one can expect to see more of this attitude.

For example, I recently asked my wife why she is now so angry with OM. It's a tough but fair question. One that I think she needs to reflect upon.

She quickly tried to derail the conversation by vaguely referring to other pre-A issues that she has forgiven (apparently to the degree that she can't articulate them).

The thing is, this is such a pattern that when I asked the question I was actually waiting for that response.

I don't know whether any of this is applicable to your situation, just food for thought.

tired girl posted 9/21/2013 23:10 PM

When are you trying to bring up these behaviors and have you worked on communication with him, such as with MC?

standinghere posted 9/21/2013 23:35 PM

I'm a BS, I can give some insight on this.

Was I perfect? No.

Was I close to perfect? No.

Of course not, I was a human being, fallible, bringing with me to my marriage my life and knowledge that I had. Neither was my wife.

However, I never expected her to be "perfect" or for my marriage to be perfect. Unfortunately, she had a messed up view of what marriage should be like, more like something out of a TV show than real life. In counseling, it came out that many children who came from homes like hers, after growing up, would have these unrealistic expectations about relationships, and then act out destructively in their relationships because of this.

The reason being that they feel the marriage problems, which all marriages have, are due to the spouse not valuing them sufficiently "if he/she really loved me this wouldn't happen".

Which simply is not true or realistic.

GotMyLifeBck2013 posted 9/22/2013 09:06 AM

Agree with standing on this...remember there are two distinct entities here you have to deal with. The first is infidelity. The second is marriage. They are not the same thing. Like other BS here I heard a lot of lies, heard a lot of justifications, and finally became convinced she would never look beyond those and deal with the primary issue, which was infidelity. Why did she do it? What was lacking in herself?

If I had a dollar for every, "Why can't you just make me happy" speech I'd be rich. You are the only one that can make you happy.

For the longest time she wanted me to admit I wasn't perfect in the marriage. I told her the same thing, every single time, "of course I wasn't. I made mistakes, and if I could redo things, I would certainly do them better. But that has nothing to do with your affair. I didn't beat you, I didn't keep money from you, I didn't gamble, I didn't abuse substances, I came home every night from work. But was I perfect, no. That has nothing to do with your affair."

Which infuriated her, unfortunately, when I would have liked her to reflect on it and make some tough insights on herself.

Sounds to me like you're getting tangled in the weeds. MC can help for sure. But you also need to feel like you're a team again and battling something together. You can't do that when you're wanting him to admit to all his faults. He obviously isn't ready to face the marriage issues, probably because he's too busy dealing with the pain and shock of the A. Give it time, but work hard on yourself.

If you're ranting here, you care. Good luck, you obviously want this to work.

20WrongsVs1 posted 9/22/2013 11:49 AM

The thing is I have learnt the only person can give me love is myself and I am fighting myself to be a person who I love.


Our BH are not any more perfect now than who they were before. They were not angels.

Careful with the "they" statements, because you only know your own situation.

I have been told and freaked on that I don't have the right to discuss or voice my opinion on unacceptable behavior of others because I cheated.

There was a thread in Wayward a week or two ago, about hipocracy. Yes, Joanh, you have every right to voice your opinion, but that doesn't relieve you of responsibility for considering how your words land with the listener.

Yes, most (all?) marriages have issues. I've seen BSs opine that an A wipes all the red out of their (BS's) pre-A ledger and I have mixed feelings about that. To fully R, IMO one cannot ignore the pre-A M issues, yet it seems unfair for the WS to ever bring those up. Is that sort of what you're expressing here? You're angry or frustrated by BH's reaction when you bring up anything that's bothering you in the M?

Joanh posted 9/22/2013 16:22 PM

Its a little mix of everything , I am mad that I let this happen, and yes I did try to justify and try to say all the things wrong were what made me feel .......etc. Now saying that there are a lot of things that I did bring up pre A that I was dismissed about or told he couldn't be bothered to change. And those things truly made have influence my feeling of not being important.

However that is not an excuse or reason for my affair. I did it because I was weak I used it for an escape of reality it was m drug of choice . I see that. I am not in anyway blaming him for my affairs. My choice my decisions. my weakness is being able to justify to myself.

Now the seeing the BS as angels or awesome people,. Mine , Yes its amazing he is still here. I know I woud be too if it was the other way around. I know that because of who I am. I am amazed at his ability to be here and he does say he still loves me. I am just not going to put him on a pedestal that he had me on before. He has strength and he has a lot of thie things I find important in a person and I do love him more than I realized. Which really fucking sucks. Sorry but that's how I feel. And your right I can only do in my situation. But for me to say he's better than me, he is better than me in the sitch he didn't cheat on me.(Now hes done to others but justifies. Understand what I am saying now) Each one of us has been either lied to and most of us have been betrayed and been the betrayer. It does not define you for life and it does not make one person better than the other.

As to him not listening to pre A issues I kow he's not ready

StrongerOne posted 9/24/2013 10:47 AM

What's bothersome to me, Joanh, is that in your original posting you move from how *your* BH is behaving to all BS. Generalizing like that will get you yelled at.

For myself, I owned the poor job I was doing as a W before the A, and committed to doing better. I made a plan with specific actions and I followed it, even when I didn't feel it. Immediately after DDay. And despite my H's reluctance to let go of the A and to do something about the poor job he was doing as a H. I am certain there are other BS and WS who stepped up, as well. So it feels bad to me when a WS rants on BSs in general for acting "perfect."

That's my take on it, anyway.

Joanh posted 9/24/2013 13:54 PM

your reight I should not generalized I was wrong in doing that and I am sorry.
I guess part of me is tired of being the piece POS all the time. I know we ar right in the beginning and I brought it on myself.
That being said. Everyone has a sin they have committed. And I know many that have betrayed me since I was a child. I don't codemn to a life of hate.

atthedoor posted 9/25/2013 09:48 AM

I can really feel your frustration, the spouse you describe is very very similar to mine. Very.
And, I must tell you that I am approaching the 5 year DDay, it's three weeks away.
For me, this has continued on, BH has pretty much rewritten marriage history. He is a victim and has decided he always will be and that he really was a good spouse and I am the complete f up. If you met us IRL, you would bust a gut laughing at his claims.
However, for my own reasons I have decided to remain in this marriage, none of which are healthy.
My point? If this behavior bothers you now, prepare yourself for years of it, it may possibly not get any better, as unfair as it is.

ak23123 posted 9/25/2013 20:04 PM

My IC made a statement regarding perfection today that I liked.

We ARE perfect (everyone is) based on our own programming (for example, childhood experiences & trauma). We cannot be better than we are because we don't "know" how to be. You may identify that you want to be a better person, but you need to learn new code to change.

Basically - we don't know what we don't know. Others may tell us or show us, but until we can actually learn it, we will have no idea how to accomplish it (no matter what is).

And if you consider those of use who have had issues (self-esteem, abandonment, depression, addiction, etc) for most of our lives, you can't expect to learn the better behavior overnight.

Yes, it's "computer-ish" sounding, but it made a lot of sense to me.

uncertainone posted 9/26/2013 09:57 AM

I guess part of me is tired of being the piece POS all the time.

I bet you are. You should be. Very tired of thinking that. You can't save and work on what you don't value.

Joanh, I know you are focusing on yourself and working through your choices. Don't ignore his either. I'm concerned about some of the things you have in your posts. Is he talking to another woman?

Part of healing as we work through this shit is to stop making bad unhealthy choices, ALL of them, and that includes accepting unhealthy choices from other's. Don't care about the alphabet combination you sport on this site. That's just a solid truth. Don't accept then from yourself or others. That's what surviving this shit show is all about, honestly. It's not accepting shame, eyes down, ashes and sack cloth accepting crumbs and blows. That's honestly affair behavior as well, just kept inhouse. You're betraying yourself with each blow regardless of who delivers it.

Remember. In order to surviving anything you have to live through it. Abandoning yourself is soul suicide. It's what we do when we cheat others AND ourselves.

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