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brokensmile322 posted 9/25/2013 11:37 AM

So a NC letter was never sent as my WH said never a PA.

Although with guidance from ICand MC, he has had a conversation (I heard) where he told her things had gotten too casual between them, made him uncomfortable and needed to go back to business only.

This was fine for awhile, but she was still was abusing the timing of her texts occasionally and then slowly non business things crept in.

So my WH then addressed the whole group saying business during business hours only and gave a guide line of working hours.

People thanked him because they, too, want peace from work as well. Again, peace for a few months, this time longer than the last.

Then WH takes a new job that takes him away from working with OW directly. Indirectly, there could be a chance that they could, but for the most part and right now, he doesn't need to nor has he.

My WH has come a long way so when she texted a few business texts that tried to cross into a personal realm, he ignored. They weren't really a question or something needing answered. He just left it go. He has done this several times. I think to her annoyance.

Fast forward to a few days ago, OW texts him in the wee hours of the morning a text that was WAAAY after business hours and that had nothing to do with business at all. She included another COW on it and that person has also not responded to date.

We consulted my IC about what to do. She thought boundaries should be stated very clearly again.

Consulted MC who stated that direct confrontation has not worked, indirect has not worked either, but he suspects that she broke WH's 'boundaries' he laid out in hopes of illiciting a response. MC feels no contact would be better. Ignore, ignore, ignore....

MC thinks she enjoys that she has this control...
Everyone, three counselors with PH.d's, think she has narcissistic tendencies.

My WH will do whatever. His initial idea was to confront and to be harsh. Now we do not know because perhaps that was what she is looking for...you know anything from him.

What the hell do we do? HR is out of the question and MC thinks could open pandora's box. If anyone actually read what she wrote, no one would think it was a big deal. The things she is texting are business comments but then with something funny which will try to make a connection to something they shared or did together business wise. So anyone reading them would not see a thing wrong with them. The big deal comes in that my WH has asked for a boundary and she has overstepped it.

Thoughts?

Simple posted 9/25/2013 12:10 PM

Doesn't matter if there's PA or EA or whatever. NC period. NO CONTACT, NO CONTACT, NO CONTACT.

I repeat one more time NO CONTACT! STOP FEEDING HER. Lead your own lives and work on M.

Hope that helps.

Simple posted 9/25/2013 12:13 PM

I just want to add:

OW POV and FWW can help me with this please if I am completely wrong.

no contact = indifference, don't care about me anymore, fish not biting, I hate him, But I thought he loves/cares for me, etc.

contact of any kind = AH! he still cares! Oh he's mad which means he still loves me, I knew he will find a way around his wife, He doesn't really love his wife, etc.

Hope that helps.

BeyondBreaking posted 9/25/2013 12:32 PM

I would take things one step further.

Document and save EVERYTHING that he has recieved that is at inappropriate hours and is not business related from OW. Go see an attorney and let the attorney know that he is feeling harassed and you can discuss legal options. You can get the attorney to send out a no contact letter, or threaten to presue harassment charges against her.

She wants a response? Don't egg her on...give her a response. Nothing says, "you don't matter and this is over" like getting threatened with a restraining order. Bonus if she continues and you are able to get a restraining order. If she harasses you after that, you get to send her to prison. :) Think of that sweetness.

brokensmile322 posted 9/25/2013 12:50 PM

OW is an attorney. I think she is full aware of what she is doing.

A lawyer action or HR action would not work in that, truly, if you looked at it as an outsider, you wouldn't see anything threatening or sexually harrassing about what she is doing.

Someone from outside would think it may be annoying, but not anything criminal.

2married2quit posted 9/25/2013 12:50 PM

A simple text about random business things at odd hours means "I'm thinking of you". She needs to LEARN HER PLACE!

My FWW's OM was an idiot and didn't get it when I told him NO CONTACT!!! He thought it was okay to text her and say "hello" or to respond to her texts. He still fishes here and there on FB even though she blocked him. He just doesn't quit or it's me being paranoid?

MartlArts posted 9/25/2013 13:38 PM

I think Simple is spot on!

Ignore, ignore, ignore. Any response, even negative, gives those attention hounds some satisfaction. If they never get that, eventually she will turn atention elsewhere.

niaveone posted 9/25/2013 14:55 PM

If she will only need to have indirect contact with him, is there a way for him to change his cell phone number or block her number completely?

alphakitte posted 9/25/2013 15:02 PM

Ignore and block!

There is only the outside chance that they need to have anything to do with one another, again? Close that gap, and block.

brokensmile322 posted 9/25/2013 15:20 PM

We have discussed blocking. And yes that would work and my WH would do it, however the reality is that she could contact him by calling or text just by blocking her number or using a different phone.

He cannot change his number as in his job there is a life saving element to it...many people need it and have it.

Plus, she has access to the company directory which his number would be listed on anyway.

The reality is that she could also call into the 800 number of the company and have the call transferred to him. Believe me, I have thought of everything.

And then there is company email...she still can reach him there. No blocking capable on that as we have looked already. Plus that is harder for me to monitor, even though I can.

When I first typed this message, I was upset that I still had to deal with her this way. You know, the unfairness of it all. And I wanted to have him rip her. But hearing from all of you, perhaps the NC is better. This is the first time he has really gone NC because he doesn't really need to speak to her. As I said, she has tried, but none of it was pertinent so he didn't respond. Previously, he had to respond because she was asking about things that were pertinent.

And perhaps the NC is now driving her crazy which is why she went really out there with a non business item in the middle of the night.

Maybe she is like a bad kid...sometimes kids just want attention so they will misbehave to get yelled at. The crave attention, so they will take any attention even if it is scolding. Maybe this is her, she wants the attention, any kind, and will take a negative kind.

It is so f-ed up. Who would do this? As the MC said, most people would understand if someone said back off and they would. She is cray, cray. I hope WH is starting to see it.

[This message edited by brokensmile322 at 3:24 PM, September 25th (Wednesday)]

alphakitte posted 9/25/2013 15:35 PM

And yes that would work and my WH would do it, however the reality is that she could contact him by calling or text just by blocking her number or using a different phone.

You are over-thinking this. Sure, if a person wants to get ahold of someone, they will.

In this instance, if he maintains NC she can't know if he is ignoring her, or if he didn't get the message. If you block her, she may know that she's been blocked, depending on whether a message bounces back that she's been blocked.

Regardless, NC is for you and him. Block her because that closes at least one avenue and may have the added benefit of making her feel ignored.

RockyMtn posted 9/25/2013 15:47 PM

What alphakite said.

But...wouldn't a narcissistic OW think that the blocking was the wife's fault. Not the WH's choice?

I'd still do it, though.

What exactly was the nature of their EA? You say that the texts she's sending now wouldn't be considered inappropriate. But there has to be a history there that was inappropriate, right? Or just too close/casual in general with nothing blatantly inappropriate?

Rebreather posted 9/25/2013 16:03 PM

Totally agree with blocking her and NC. The more you don't have to see her cross his phone, the better. If she wants to perform a circus act to contact him, she will, but at least it won't ruin your evenings!

brokensmile322 posted 9/25/2013 21:09 PM

Thank you everyone! I guess I have been viewing this wrong...really buying into the need to communicate because of business.

I have been told my all three of our counselors that if it is part of his job, he will have to. Thankfully his job has changed and contact can be controlled.

WH's view on her changed in the last MC and that has also helped. My WH has said that he struggles with anyone being that diabolical to do this stuff that he had a hard time believing that there was something evil in her motives.

MC came out and said that she targeted him, found him appealing, broke his boundaries he tried to establish after dday, and likes the control she thinks she has over the situation.

All very calculating.

To answer a question, no...I have never found any text, email, voicemail, letter etc... where there was any romantic feelings expressed. I was able to hear voice mail messages that were deleted from several months prior to dday. Nothing but a casual "Hey, It's just me..."

My WH maintains that they NEVER talked of feelings or how they felt. Thus, why he had a hard time thinking this is an EA. All the definitions say this person is your confidant etc...

However, my WH was spending alot of time with her...always a business reason, but I believe he found more reasons to do business there than may have been necessary. In other words, yes, he was there for business, but if she had been a man, he may have passed on being present for certain meetings etc...

He said he really thought of her as a friend. I know he was attracted to her from the very beginning. They joked around a lot. Alot of picking on eachother and with the group of people they work with. One time she said something like if you were here I would tackle you. I also saw one or two texts where she complained to him in a whiny way which always elicited a response from him that was supportive and building her up or coming to her defense. These were very far and few between. But I would assume where there is smoke there is fire.

After dday, I discovered he spent time with just her in two instances that were kind of business related, but not really. They were very close to dday. One was an activity that was being done with a group and then just the two of them stayed a few hours longer and one was dinner. The dinner was originally for a group of 6, the others cancelled and the decided to go together because they both had to eat. This I could confirm through emails. He lied about doing both. At the time, he lied because he said I would not understand.

At the time, we were very distant. We were barely talking. They were talking a lot and texting a lot. Although the texts were never late at night or on weekends for the most part.

I do think this was headed down a very slippery slope. I question everyday whether it did cross a PA boundary. I do think it is possible and in some ways think it would be easier to handle then.

If it was a PA, there could be nc and definite validation of my feelings. With a PA, it seems you know what needs to be done to move forward.

As it stands, I was feeling a certain way at the time...left out, scared, unloved, not a top priority, that she meant more to him than me...etc

It is hard to move forward because my WH views the whole thing differently. The problem lies in what is an emotional affair really? He says he understands he betrayed me, that he was putting her and other things first, that he was investing time in her he should have been investing in me, but he does not get the magnitude of my hurt. And he maintains that there was never anything romantic between them. However, I cannot crawl in his mind. I do not know what he was really thinking at the time about her and about him. Did she arouse him, plant seeds that he found exciting, look forward to their talks, plan visits to see her? I don't really know.

MC states that the level of betrayal is in the eyes of the betrayed. And all of these things are huge to me because of FOO too.

We will talk with the MC on Saturday in more depth about what to do. He did say on the phone that what she is doing is harassing, but that it is not harassing to those who may look at it without knowing the history.

It is all very sneaky.

Have I mentioned lately that I will be at a business function with this woman for a whole week? Lord, I do not know if I can do it!

[This message edited by brokensmile322 at 9:24 PM, September 25th (Wednesday)]