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catatonic posted 9/27/2013 22:06 PM

DD 8-17-13. We have been making progress talking. WS has been remorseful and giving 110 o/o to work towards R. I still had some questions that were not bring answered, and presented WS with "Joseph's" letter from the healing library. It was exactly what I wanted to say. I also found a piece if evidence that dates knowing OW about 4 years earlier than told. When WS was asked about this , he states he can't remember a timeline of beginning if A, or when it turned to a PA. He said it doesn't matter as long as we can move forward. That's when I gave WS the letter. He got really angry, very angry. Thinks I'm asking to much. I believe he wants to keep his secret just with him. Details, events are not important. He says he wants to be with me. These new dates puts things in a new perspective fir me. Knowing at that time I had a dying father, sibling issues , and very young kids. And I was taking care of all this so he could focus in work!!!
Any help with how to read him. I'm now very scared at what I may or may never know

stevepf posted 9/27/2013 22:22 PM

When I first found of Wife's affair, I too wanted to know all the details and timelines. Where did they go? What movies did they watch? As in your case, WS would get angry beause I was asking "too much" from her. I think it is either the guilt feeling of not wanting to relive the A, or trying to keep their secrets safe so they don't get caught in the future...
I never did find out the extend of their afair (she claims only a couple of kisses, I think much MUCH more). Yet on the other had, I'm not sure how I would feel if I knew the whole truth. As they say, be sure you want the answer before you ask the question...

catatonic posted 9/27/2013 22:29 PM

Thank you Stevepf. My concern is how do you begin to trust and wirk towards R if there are lies. I already know it was a PA. And I don't need those details. I'm educated enough. But when told it lasted x amount if years, when in reality it was probably longer and WS is not willing to admit. You begin to wonder what is real !!

heartache101 posted 9/27/2013 23:09 PM

Catatonic
I never got the truth 20+ years i still wonder. would i have stayed if i knew the truth? no internet no si then. i think the truth is what you deserve to know it is your life. you should have the truth.
Get the answers you need now.
I am sorry you are here.

jb3199 posted 9/28/2013 05:20 AM

First off, sorry that you are here. As much as no one deserves to be cheated on, at least we have a resource like this site.

My question to you:

WS has been remorseful and giving 110 o/o to work towards R.

Why would you say that he is remorseful?

Regretful, maybe. But remorseful? No way.

Joseph's Letter is as kind of a way to putting to your spouse what you are needing to know. And his response is anger. This is because he wants this behind him, and to not have to deal with the fallout. That is called rugsweeping around here....with a capital "R". And if this is allowed to continue, then sadly, your marriage will not have a chance.

But keep in mind, that you are only a month out, and as selfish and destructive as your wayward husband has been, he needs to process his thoughts. It usually takes longer for a wayward to come back to their senses, because they were screwed up to begin with.

This does not mean that you have to be tolerant nor patient---quite the opposite. The sooner that he is shown that you will not be bullied, cajoled, or disrespected for one minute longer, the sooner that he has a chance to pull his head out of his ass.

Right now, knowledge is power, and you can definitely use a boost to your crushed morale. Please consult with an attorney. Learn what your rights are. Know where you will possibly land if your husband does not become reconcilable material(which he currently is NOT). Show him, in a crystal clear way, that you would like to try to save your marriage, but will in no way tolerate the current behavior.

Remember, with remorse...real remorse...comes the whole package--particularly empathy. If he truly comes to realize the damage that he has done to his kids, you, and himself...and is wanting and willing to dig deep as to why he did this, then there is no limit to how strong the two of you could potentially make your marriage. But the problem is, that the betrayed spouse is often so wanting to repair the marriage, that they will look past many issues in the hopes of not "rocking the boat", that they will not call their spouse out when they are not in the proper mindset. It is one of the hardest obstacles to overcome--putting aside your fears in order to demand nothing less that what a healthy marriage should have--honesty, transparency, open communication, and a mutual respect for one another.

Right now is your time to be selfish--in a constructive way. You have to focus on you. Let your WH know that not only does he have to sort out his own demons, but it is also his responsibility to help you through your times of need. And if you are offering him the possibility of reconciliation, he should be doing effing backflips, and thanking his lucky stars that there is still a chance.

And if he isn't willing to step up to the plate, you need to work on the possibility of a life without him.

Remember:

--Take care of yourself first

--Children an immediate second

The rest is up to him at this point.

MJane posted 9/28/2013 05:33 AM

I agree with previous good advice but just wanted to share something from my own experience. Part of me wants to know everything and another part knows that the things I already know kill me. In IC my counsellor gave me what I found to be good advice - she said that I may think I want 100% of the details but to pause on some of the questions for a few days and see if I feel the same. I have an entire envelope OW copiled for me and I read just a few mails - knowing about what was happening on the dates of the mails (birth of son, taking him home from hospital) has almost killed me and made me look so sadly on those times. I decided that, for me, it doesn't help to read everything. I do think that you are entitled to ask and expect answers - which is entirely a different matter and does mean your H needs to be as transparent as you need him to be...I guess what I am saying is that knowledge does not always bring healing - maybe just more pain.

OK now posted 9/28/2013 06:31 AM

You can see your WH's superior attitude in the statements he makes. He plainly thinks he has bestowed a great gift in choosing you as his partner instead of the OW. This is actually quite common during reconciliation, where the BS remains a victim. Eager to forgive, stripped of all confidence and self-esteem, we grab at the opportunity to save our marriage. This in turn invokes WS arrogance and impatience when we tearfully ask for information.

Its not true remorse WH is displaying or he would give you all the answers you require. You remain the victim and he continues to believe he conferred a great gift on you in agreeing to rebuild. Does wonders for your self-worth.

Edith posted 9/28/2013 06:45 AM

Dear Catatonic,
I'm so sorry you are going through this. I see a lot of conflict in your post. As others have said, remorseful and 110% work toward R does not include refusing to answer your questions and being angry.

He says he wants to be with me.

Well aren't YOU the lucky winner!

If I were you, I would state that you need a detailed timeline. And then promptly start the 180. No cooking for him, no doing his laundry. No folding his clothes. I would have him sleep somewhere other than my bed. Make myself unavailable for him in any emotional way, only discuss kids and finances.

In my situation, I needed to know EVERYTHING. If he wanted to keep something secret, I felt like it was an act of intimacy with skank. Many things I had to figure out for myself, and he later verified that I was correct. Just as you are finding out, it is quite damaging.

Please turn the focus to yourself. You deserve all of your attention and kindness. Right now, he is not worthy. Take care.

E.

Teach8 posted 9/28/2013 06:56 AM

Catatonic,
I just read your story. First, I'm so sorry. It sounds like your situation could be simlar to mine. When I first found out about my fwh's LTA he lied A LOT. It took fourm months for me to find out it was actually 7 years long. It sounds like your gut is screaming...mine was too. I gave my fwh joseph's letter too. He wasn't angry but it didn't move him to tell me the truth either. I had to find out the truth from the ow. He finally admitted when I confronted with what I learned from her. It sounds like your wh is still in self protection mode. Keep digging. My fwh did not have true remorse until the truth came out and he started ic. Also, there is a thread in I Can Relate for LTA's...you may find it helpful.

stronger08 posted 9/28/2013 07:19 AM

My XWW would only admit to what she could not lie herself out of. And then there were even times when I handed her solid proof that was 110% undeniable and she still would fess up. I would push and push until she finally would accept that she could no longer lie. I would ask is this it ? Is this everything ? And she would say yes it was. Until the next round of bullshit was dug up by myself. And the game started all over again. I finally printed and handed her Josephs letter to see if that could get her to be honest. I gave her 3 or 4 days to read and dwell on it. When I asked what she thought about it her responses was "Your not Joseph. And our situation is much different" So I finally gave up. There was no getting through to this remorseless cheater. She would try and make believe she had remorse. But it was very obvious she did not. A couple months later I found out NC was broken and I finally left her. Naturally in a panic she tried to lie her way out of that one again. But the Keylogger don't lie. A year or so later I came confirmed that another A had happened prior. And that there were most likely 3 or 4 others as well. Some people just cant or wont admit what they have done. And my XWW was/is one of them. Now that we are D you should hear the whoppers she tells about our M and its subsequent demise. Most are so far out there they are laughable. And depending on the person she tells them to. The story changes to suit here needs. Point is you cant make them be honest. You cant make them have remorse. All you can do is remove yourself from the insanity. I did and my life is better for it.

alphakitte posted 9/28/2013 08:33 AM

. I think it is either the guilt feeling of not wanting to relive the A, or trying to keep their secrets safe so they don't get caught in the future...

Or, as my husband admitted, some choose to guard the secrets of their affair/affairs so they may enjoy them.

catatonic posted 9/28/2013 08:38 AM

Thank you for lifting advice. To wake up and read JB3199 reply really puts things in perspective. I did just now tell him I will not tolerate his anger towards me and I expect him him to respect my need to know. I did tell him he is "rug sweeping". What really hurt was he saud he was not happy at that time in our marriage. trying to blame my emitional detachement. He said that he does not want to tell me timelines, details because I will just think about that and remind him later. I am not satisfied with this. We have our first MC session Monday. He says he will answer questions with MC. But doesn't want to write a timeline as he is unclear when things began. I will say now after DD if feel like the cheater.. Snooping secretly, hiding from WS kids typing this etc. it's hard to stay focused and strong . Thank you all for your advice. It really helps.

doggiediva posted 9/28/2013 09:31 AM

As someone previously said, be careful in what you want to know..

Some people need/ want all of the details, others need just a very basic or minimal timeline of details.

With that being said, your mood for how much detail you want of WH's A may vary daily and your WH needs to be able to deal with your needs effectively..

The most important thing to note is his ATTITUDE and his BEHAVIOR when you present him with your requests and things for him to see, listen to or read, such as Joseph's letter..

My WH and I are NOT in R, my situation is such that I am biding my time..

If I were in your situation I would have told WH that his anger is inappropriate and that if he continues to feel/ behave the same way towards me in regards to his A, he will be staring at the prospect of D..

catatonic posted 9/28/2013 11:36 AM

You are correct doggie diva.
I did tell my WS that we can not move forward until he faces when this started and why. I thought we were making progress and talking. He said it started 2 1/2 to 3 yrs. u believe now it was longer. And when you realize more if your marriage was fake. It's hard to swallow. Considering we had what I and other people around us considered a good marriage. He says it was just a physical act. No love . Just a selfish act he says to satisfy he needs. I read the R stories and wonder how do you move on knowing this man still came home and functioned in a family.

Blobette posted 9/28/2013 12:23 PM

Frankly, you need the info in order to decide if you want to stay in the marriage. You need the info because he has to prove to you that he can be honest. You need the info so he shows that he's willing to vulnerable to you -- to show what's really going on inside him. If HE doesn't trust you with that, you guys aren't going anywhere.

As for blaming your "emotional detachment" -- BULLSHIT. That's Cheater 101. You will hear this many times on here: problems in the marriage are shared by both of you -- the decision to cheat, rather than deal with those problems like a grown-up, is all his, and he has to own the fact that he made a shitty decision.

After you get over the shock, you will get ANGRY. He will either respond to that by understanding why and wanting to make you feel better, or he will get angry back. The ones who get angry back aren't remorseful.

Good luck.

Chrysalis123 posted 9/28/2013 15:06 PM

I am sorry you are here. I remember being in your position and I could barely function.

Time to be self centered because your kids need the healthiest mom they can get. Consider anti depressants....did wonders for a lot us here. Eat, drink,sleep, and vent here or IRL.

Please go visit with an attorney. Doesn't mean you will divorce it means you are gaining wisdom. See BS took that from you. You were not on an even playing field for a long time. And now he is blaming you for the uneven field when he installed it.

Find out what your settlement would be. Get as much knowledge as you can about your financial situation. Make copies of everything in case he shuts you out.

Can you see his is not respecting you? The anger shows that. He wants things to go back the way they were with you doing everything and him having his cake on the side.

You too were experiencing the same marriage. You didn't lie and cheat.

Please keep coming here. You have found a gold mine of wisdom that can help you navigate this mess he put you and the kids into.

Have you been tested for STDs?

[This message edited by Chrysalis123 at 3:09 PM, September 28th (Saturday)]

Chrysalis123 posted 9/28/2013 15:08 PM

PS...don't tell him what you are doing.

catatonic posted 9/28/2013 15:09 PM

Blobette thank you. That's us how I feel. I just need to hear this to give me strength.. Which is hard when you look at you kids and a husband trying to be nice, you get lost in your thoughts. I am scared to get angry as strange as that seems

Lovedyoumore posted 9/28/2013 21:58 PM

Until the two of you find a cooperative way to move forward, you will be stuck in the A. If he moves on without you, you are not in R. If you still feel he has secrets and cherishes those secrets more than you, you will not move through this. You may be able to force some semblance of a marriage, but both of you will be cheated of a great marriage partnership. He is starting the R with a huge imbalance. You have suffered enough. I would be willing to bet it is not really in the details but in his willingness to share his whole life with you. I would feel like the A is still going on if my H refused to answer my questions.

I am feeling sad for you. If your H only knew the path he is creating will make him the ultimate loser in all of this.

[This message edited by Lovedyoumore at 10:00 PM, September 28th (Saturday)]

catatonic posted 9/29/2013 18:03 PM

Thank you " lovedyoumore" we start MC Monday, I have some details of A. Obviously admits it happened, thinks 3ish years, not sure, has told her no contact. Has stated he wants to do everything possible and right to put me first and work on our marriage. Says it was just S.. He only was superficial with her. It filled a " need" !!! I need to work through this. My gut thinks more. Hard to believe OW had " just S.." With WH for more than 3 years and they never left office, shared thought etc. I just don't know or understand at this point.