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I am currently in stealth mode - trying to get proof that my WW has lost her way. I strongly believe my wife has been involved in an PA (for maybe 3-5 years) with someone at her office (specifically the OM has his office directly next to my WW's office). I strongly believe this guy is the one who gave her (and me later on) pubic crabs.

My suspicion arouse several years ago, but I think I must of been in denial (because I let it go and got caught up in my work and very busy family life - 3 young kids).

Long story short - I became very suspicious this past August (when I showed up at her work unannouced) and when I saw the OM for the first time.

As I started to put things together (all the changes in her behavior, change in sexual habits, secretiveness of her cell phone, changes in her behavior/mood, going to the gym all the time, getting breast implants when she knows that I do not care for them), I think my DD was August 29, 2013.

Can you have a DD even if you have no solid concrete proof? When I confronted her about my suspicions, her response was highly defensive (she accused my of cheating and getting crabs from cheating).

Well, since then I have been in stealth mode. I have caught her lies and realize how adept and effortless it is for her to concoct the lies.

The problem is catching them in the act. My wife is on a tight schedule and does not have the ability to get away for long periods of time. She just has too many responsibilities with her job and the 3 kids. I pretty much know where she is all the time.

I'm fairly certain that she and OM are screwing during the lunch hour (in his office - which is directly next to her office). That is the only time she chas available. The problem is catching them in the act. Too difficult without causing her to become suspicious. The physical set up of their offices makes it very difficult for surveillence without making her and him suspicious.

Anways, I have gotten tested for STD's and am searchiing for a family attorney.

I am strongly considering divorce (regardless if I have concrete proof or not). I plan on having divorce papers files and confronting her soon.

I know she will deny everything (proof or no proof). Since the PI surveillence is fairly expensive, would you consider confronting the WW without concrete rock solid proof?

I am not interested in punishing her for her affair. I just want to protect my kids and my family.

I am sending you a pm

(((deeplysaddened)))

I am so sorry you find yourself here with all of us.

This site has been a lifesaver for me----I have learned so much from the wise people here, & also gotten so much comfort when I have been in severe pain.

would you consider confronting the WW without concrete rock solid proof?

My WH also had an A with a coworker---they sat next to each other all day at work.

It was only a few days from the time my gut started to get suspicious until I checked his cell phone call log & saw the hundreds of calls/texts back & forth between them for the past few months, & I confronted WH a couple of hours later.

My feeling was ---let me throw a monkeywrench into the works before they get any more involved than they already are.

I had already gone to a payphone & called the number, & got OW's VM recording, so I knew her first name.

I simply said to WH, "Who is OW, & why are there 30 calls/texts back & forth between you per day for the last few months?

WH immediately admitted that he had slept with her.

In your case, it has been going on for much longer, & your WW seems deep in the fog. I am assuming that you have already checked her phone records----you may learn something from them. I don't know what type of phone your WW has, but

there are certain phone apps which also act as recording devices---check Brickhouse security---they cost a few hundred dollars, but that is still cheaper than a PI. I did hire a PI to do a background check on OW, to see if she had a criminal history. Even if your WW & OM are meeting in his office, she probably takes her phone with her.

I know how difficult this is, but it is often said on here that you have to be willing to end the marriage if there is any chance of saving it. Sending you strength.

[This message edited by mchercheur at 10:46 AM, September 29th (Sunday)]

I really don't think your wife would have anything, especially sexual, to do with a guy who gave her crabs. Would you?

Also sex in an office at work? Very unlikely considering what would happen if they were caught. Affairs at work are virtually always known to other members of staff; I can speak from personal experience having worked in a n office for a number of years. You just can't hide the looks, glances, intimate touches etc.

You don't have any proof and confronting her would be pointless; she would just endlessly deny. Filing for divorce may not have such an attractive outcome when you consider alimony and child support payments for 3 kids.

As for surveillance all I think of is planting a microphone or VAR, but I would leave that to a PI who has a better idea of whats legal or not.

I think that the fact she turned it around and threw it in your face that you must be the cheater (because of lice/'crabs') is highly indicative of something. Why else would she toss that in your face. My WH was the one for years that accused me of cheating when I would dream of it. They're often just mirroring their own not so great stuff in you. If they are lying, you're the liar - etc. Good luck and sorry that you're going through this. :(

I am trying to understand OK Nows comments:

I really don't think your wife would have anything, especially sexual, to do with a guy who gave her crabs. Would you?

Are you suggesting that his WW was having an affair with two OM and it was the other OM that gave her crabs? Not the noble OM who she chose to stay with?

Also sex in an office at work? Very unlikely considering what would happen if they were caught. Affairs at work are virtually always known to other members of staff;

You say it is very unlikely they would cheat because of the consequences but then go on to say from personal experience people do it anyway and you have even witnessed it yourself. In my opinion a WS doesn't think of the consequences until it is too late.

As for surveillance all I think of is planting a microphone or VAR, but I would leave that to a PI who has a better idea of whats legal or not.

mchercheur mentioned brickhouse security and I agree. I purchased a GPS tracking device that I left in my FWW car(not real time tracking) that I could download later and see where she was and for how long on google earth. Voice activated recorders can record conversations in the car. Key logging software can be installed on her laptop if it owned by both of you. It will send you a record of every chat, text, email and keystroke she makes every hour.

You can gather quite a bit of info quickly and without the expense of a PI in my opinion.

[This message edited by tooanalytical at 4:56 PM, September 29th (Sunday)]

I strongly believe my wife has been involved in an PA (for maybe 3-5 years) with someone at her office (specifically the OM has his office directly next to my WW's office). I strongly believe this guy is the one who gave her (and me later on) pubic crabs.

As far as I can see there is only one OM; the one who supposedly gave her crabs and whose office is next to hers.

If any guy I was sexually involved with gave me crabs I would end the affair immediately [where had this guy been !?] . Just for good measure I would move to another office - who knows how mobile crabs are. Revolting in the extreme.

Just for good measure I would move to another office - who knows how mobile crabs are. Revolting in the extreme.

OK now, you just made me laugh for the first time in awhile. An image came to my mind of an army of crab lice swarming under doorways in my direction.

Seriously tho, our WSs ( those who have been in PAs) have been as intimate as one can be with their APs, in most cases without using condoms ( which don't 100% protect against contact with an STD anyway, but are better than not using one) & also don't bother to even ask the AP if they have anything.

One question I asked WH was: did you ask OW if she has any STDs? Of course not, why would he think to do that?

OW had spread her legs for quite a few men at the office.

So now if I sleep with him, I am exposing myself to anything any of them had.

Back to deeplysaddened's situation: apparently his WW did contract crab lice from OM, but still continued on with him---guess it didn't bother her & she didn't care about passing them on to deeplysaddened

. Thank God it wasn't something incurable.

OK now

My WW has a thing for Latin men. I won't go into the details, but I know what she is into (and aparrently it ain't me).

As for sex at the office, I would generally agree with your observations. But, her office has only one employee (a secretary who sits at the front desk). The door to the office has no window. So when my WW leaves her office (to slink into the OM office for a quickie) almost no one can see (except for the ceiling mounted surveillence cameras). I would love to get access to those video footage. But, my PI tells me that there is no way in hell the owners of the building will share that information.

His office is not really an office. It is more of an equipment room. The OM is a maintainence guy.

The offices are at the end of a short hallway - cul-de-sac that is hidden from view of the main hallway.

This is why it is very difficult for my private investigators to catch her in the act of leaving her office and going into his equipment room. Standing outside the 2 doors would be a giveaway.

I am more than willing to go the divorce route. If there were no kids involved, I wouldn't be on this forum. I would be at the lawyers office filing for divorce like yesterday. But, for the sake of my kids, I will confront my WW and go the R route (if she is truly remorseful and willing to work hard to fix what she f'ked up). If she continues to deny and is not willing to do the no contact, change offices, she will then receive the divorce papers. That may wake her up (or not).

Alimony is not really an issue. She may be the one who may actually pays alimony. I do not know the laws, but I was the one who financed her fledgling business (that has now become successful).

deeplysaddened,

Sorry you are here,there are many people here that have lived this nightmare and are more than willing to try and help.

I am more than willing to go the divorce route. If there were no kids involved, I wouldn't be on this forum. I would be at the lawyers office filing for divorce like yesterday.

Whatever you finally decide to do you should strongly consider consulting a lawyer. The L can give you an idea of what your rights are in case things go south.

Even though it is hard I think you should stay in the stealth mode, it does not sound like your W is going to come clean with anything and truthfulness is not one of her strongpoints. The question will be "what are you going to do if you can't prove an A?" Your gut is telling you what's going on, this sixth sense is not usually wrong.

Stay strong, your kids are going to need you. Keep posting as long as you need to.

You mentioned she's protective of her cell phone. #1 thing in my book to raise the hairs on the back of your neck. When I demanded to see my wife's iphone, she freaked!! If there's nothing to hide, it shouldn't be a big deal. Then if there's really nothing there, it's an opening and opportunity to talk things out. But, if they "freak", you KNOW there is something to your suspicions. Good luck and best wishes!!!

Unless your W is a confirmed sociopath its usually fairly easy to catch a cheater when you know where to look. It seems your doing everything you can to confirm your suspicions. Yet your efforts have not yielded any concrete proof of an A. Yours is a strange case indeed. The red flags are waving all over the place. And I'm of the belief whens there's smoke there's fire. But, and this is a big but. Perhaps you may need to accept the fact that you wont catch her in the proverbial act. I'm a bit concerned that your obsessing over the hunt. If your not happy over the condition of your M maybe you should just ask for a D. Sometimes you don't need solid evidence of an A to know the M is dead. KWIM ?

I agree this is a very unusual case. Your wife has Brazilian wax jobs, boob implants and goes to the gym to keep her figure AND she gives you a lousy sex life. Then who is she making all this effort for? Particularly the painful Brazilian wax torture.

Since its not for you, its highly likely she has a lover and she laughing at your doomed attempts to prove this.

Unless you can gain access to the building where your wife works and plant a remote microphone in OM's 'office' [maybe wife's office too], its hard to find out if sex is actually taking place. I can't think of any other way.

You could reason they you have enough circumstantial evidence to serve her with divorce papers, [she will never confess so don't bother trying to reason with her], then if she really doesn't want the divorce, demand, as a condition of withdrawing the petition, that she quits her job. Getting her to leave her job may be the only way of ending this affair because of the peculiar nature of her suspected adultery.

Meeting with a counsellor will not work since she has no intention of telling the truth. She will make you out to be a sick paranoid and humiliate you in front of the MC.

File and make sure she doesn't suspect that you are bargaining to keep the marriage. Tell her its all over and you want out, then see if she is prepared to fight to keep the family intact.

deeplysaddened,

Not to be harsh but why do you need more concrete proof. Unless you had an A, which is apparent that you haven't, then what more proof do you need than getting pubic crabs from your WW? Unless you want it solely for court you don't need any more than that. She gaslighting you with the accusation that you're the one cheating. It's all about throwing off your suspicions. Think about it this way, if she weren't having an A then that means you definitely cheated and passed on the crabs to her from it. How would she or any other woman react to that?

Bottom line is you know. Now is just a question of details. The question now is why do you need to know more. Do you need to confirm what you know? Why? Do you need for court? If that's your plan then check with a lawyer.

I've been where you're at. You know but you think you need something irrefutable proof. Deep down you may think if you have then the denials have to stop. If she can't deny then she has to face what she's done and guilt and remorse will follow. Unfortunately that may not be the case. Some WS can deny forever. Some don't react the way their BS expects.

Focus on you. What do you need to heal? If you don't want to consider R regardless of whether your WW is remorseful then prepare accordingly. Get into IC.

I read all your posts.

There is a lot to indicate issues in the marriage.

There is also enough IMHO to justify your concerns about her fidelity.

However… I would not limit any investigation to proving that she is having an affair with this particular possible OM.

It’s one of the more common mistake people make when investigating something; trying to prove a given conclusion. Do that and you will limit your investigation. It will make you bypass evidence and wrongly see other evidence.

OK – so you claim you can’t monitor her when in the office. But I for one doubt that they will limit any affair to an office if he is the OM. It’s a relatively rare case where a woman maintains a purely sexual affair; as a rule the sex is currency for something else like validation, attraction and being made to feel special. So there will be lunches, motels, communication and interaction outside the office.

It’s an extremely rare WS that can completely hide the affair. Look and you will find. Affair partners communicate. They arrange the next date. So look into communications. Already got hints with VAR’s and so.

Affair partners meet and they lie in order to do so. So she says she will be at A but goes to B. A simple gps or even a smartphone with a program like sports tracker can tell you where she was and what time. She goes to the gym for 3 hours? Confirm that. Confirm she leaves, arrives at the gym in as straight a path as possible and is there for more or less all the time. She says she’s going to her friends’ house?

As you know from personal experience crabs aren’t comfortable… So I understand where OK now is coming from. Crabs is something that sounds a lot more like a chance encounter with a player rather than a long-term affair. Even cheating wives don’t like being cheated on. I would seriously look into her gym-time. She wouldn’t be the first woman to find casual sex in a gym.

Look into finances. Where are withdrawals made? Spend a lot on lunch some distance from the office? (A definite red flag – if your spouse takes the trouble to drive 15 minutes at lunch to get a salad then she’s maybe meeting someone that she doesn’t want her co-workers to know of).

I’m quite certain that if you look you will find.

Only remember this: After a reasonable time – if you don’t find anything… then MAYBE it’s because there isn’t anything going on.

Thanks everyone for all the insightful advice.

Tomorrow I have a scheduled 3 hour meeting with a top family law attorney (expensive but hopefully worht it). I will ask all the questions I need to prep myself for the ordeal ahead.

Actually, probably the most important question would relate to the concrete evidence. Is it needed legally?

I guess for me I just want to know the truth. I can see my WW denying everything and accusing me of being paranoid, neurotic, and obsessed. My goal is not to punish her or take away the kids from her. My kids do need her and she is a good mother (except for the A).

Actually, even if I have concrete proof, I do not want this info to be known to people we know. It's just too embarrassing for our family. I would hate for my kids to find out their mom ( a well respected professional) screws the custodian in her office building, gets crabs, gives it to her husband, and she still continues to see the OM).

I think what will happen is this: I do not get the proof I am looking for. She denies everything. I serve her the divorce papers and we get divorced. Somehow I doubt she will wake up from the fog. I need to move on. I have so much to offer to a truly loving spouse.

If she does wake up and is truly remorseful and willing to do absolutely everything to fix the mess, I will give her the chance.

deeplysaddened

Even if she is not actually in an A right now, which I doubt because I think she is)

she is certainly NOT in your marriage right now.

She is behaving in a very uncaring, unkind, selfish way to you.

Bigger

Thanks for your insight.

Actually, my PI thinks the OM is a player. The investigator thinks this OM may also be banging another female employee. Just today, I saw her car parked next to his. They've been seen in work out clothes after work. He's been seen coming out of the building to walk her in.

My PI have watched the OM putting on aftershave in his car. Slicking back his hair. You know - all that male primping crap. Actually, I find him kind of slimy. I think he definitely is a player.

As for my WW - her schedule is tight. And it is easy for me to account for her time. I check her schedule daily and often check her GPS location. Our 3 kids afterschool events require her to be on a tight schedule.

As for the gym - she stays there 1.5 hours (treadmill and elliptical for 1 hour and machine weights and stretching for half a hour. GPS says she's at gym. Plus, now I am a member too.

Lunches and hotels? She's too busy in her office to get away for even a 30 minute lunch. She usually runs down to the cafeteria and brings it back up. Hotels? Can't see it happening - except on the rare occasion I have to go out of town. Weekends? Nope. The 3 kids tie up all her time.

I have several VAR and placed them in our cars. Nothing much.

Here's what is interesting. She really hates it when I accompany her to her office. She tells me that it is not professional for me to be around. Whenever we go to the office, she wants me to wait in the car or go to the cafeteria (and only come meet her at the car or exit when she calls me). I'm pretty sure she feels uncomfortable that the OM may something stupid.

My WW almost has this split personality or Dr.Jeckel Mr.Hyde thing. The woman I married is gentle kind and loving. When she is tired or if I am at the office with her, she is downright mean, condescending and uptight. In our 1st decade of marriage, I never saw this side to her. It's almost if I don't even know this person.

Also, I have noticed that if I screw up her possible plans for free time with the OM, she'll complain of being tired, having a headahce, and becomes really argumentative.

After reading over post and hearing how hard your hurting especially you not to come but over wait in the car it's not professional... Buddy and you do not want anyone to know about her affair... Really she thinking about you at all..! Really she has no respect for you. Stop being a nice guy look where that got you. She started working out got bolt ons.... Not one bit of that was for you she's hurting you and you don't want to hurt her that's what you lost respect for you buddy. Sorry I'm being so blunt but you need to hear it and kick her ass out of the house total disrespect towards you she has become your enemy I hope you get a little mad you need to

Trojan

You are so right. My WW has no respect for me. She's a cake eater. She wants the comfort and security of a househusband and saves all her sex for that scumbag.

You are right. No more Mr. Nice guy. Look where it got me.

Also, I am starting to realize that it will be very difficult to get concrete (and not circumstantial evidence). My PI has had no luck. That's an entirely different story. But, I really want the concrete proof for leverage. Here's what I mean.

2 days ago, I had a 3 hour intensive consultation with an experienced and respected family lawyer. She basically told me that having that proof can help, but in terms of the judge punishing the WW monetarily is not, in my mind, that significant. Of course, I could sue for spousal cruelty and other stuff my lawyer mentioned, but that's a bit more difficult.

My intention is to avoid litigation. The only people who wins out are the lawyers. And in the end, less money will be available to my children.

Again, my intention is to avoid litigation and settle this out. If I get the concrete proof, my WW will be absolutely pretrified and would go very far to make sure the sordid details of the affair (a well known respected professional who screws the building custodial staff in dark equipment rooms, getting crabs and infecting her BS with crabs) do not get out. She has a reputation to uphold. Her business may suffer if word got out. She's incredibly conscious about these things. This would be incredibly embarrassing for her.

With the concrete proof in my hand, I could start my offensive. In the prior posts, I mentioned that I did not want to punish my WW. But, as time goes on, I think my feelings are changing. If the proofs comes to me, it will soon be my turn to dole out the pain. She had her turn, but I'd like to think it will soon be my turn to dole out some pain. Of course, my kids are the most important thing and I will do absolutely everything to protect them.

But, again, getting that proof, may be a pipedream.

The meeting with the lawyer was very helpful. But, it was very depressing. When she explained the custody of children and split up of homes and how kids are affected, I felt deeply saddened. This is the absolute worst part. It made me want to try to reconcile. Can you say roller coaster of emotions?

I have the legal contract and retainer check for my lawyer to get the petition for divorce started. The envelop is addressed and stamped. My hesitation is that maybe I am making this decision too fast. I guess my DD was August 29, 2013. Maybe I should wait a little longer. Waiting in stealth. Trying to see if she screws up and I get the actual proof.

When I mail out the letter, the plan is to have my WW served at her office. I'm not even going to confront her. Do you think this is the right way? Or should I confront her and have her served a few days later? I kind of like the shock and awe approach.

Brandon88

What if I am wrong and that the crabs were contracted through infected bedding, sheets, towels, toilet? I think that is far fetched though. And with all the other things that my WW displays, I do already know the truth.

OKnow

You are so right. When I confronted the WW in August, I could tell she was somewhat pleased with herself that I did not have a bit of proof. That smug look on her face reall makes me mad. I will never forget that look.