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Crazyman642 posted 10/8/2013 08:44 AM

The below is in response to another post, but i would like to hear suggestions.

Am I being unreasonabale? Should I just move on and work towards R? any help would be awesome...

Tiggers, Wow an issue I am dealing with every day. I am only a couple months out, and here is a recent example and one we discussed in MC. I seemed to get dismissed by both my WW and the Dr. I'd like to hear peoples thoughts.

Short back ground: EA lasting a year, with PA of photos and phone sex. We are in MC, she says she is remorseful and acts sorry says it will never happen again. I feel like a meal ticket she is trying to hold on to. Not to mention the thought of being away from my children kills me.

So Tigger. Valentines Day weekend last year I bought my WW a brand new Town and Country Minivan, as a feature the radio is able to save favorite songs and artist. I have never saved a song she saved many during the time of the affair. I deleted all the artist and started focusing on the songs and noticed a few patterns. (yes, to boot I am in law enforcement which makes it harder that I was fooled in my own home.) I noticed that one, the music was something that she never listened to around me. Second, most of the songs dealt with sex, affairs, and leaving. The radio alerts you when any of your favorite songs are about to play so I can easily switch over and listen. So finally I confront her about this tigger. Unfortunitly it was in the van on the way out for our first date night since DDay. She says they are all just songs and that she doesnt listen to the words. Rock music is just about sex. I of course call BS and she shuts down. So during our next MC session it was brought up by whom I dont recall. The Dr. pretty much says that I need to stop reading into things and just move on, she WW sticks to she never listened to the words. I am still pissed to this day. I havent deleted the songs as I want them to come on when she is in the van so I can have her listen to them and see my point. MC says I have to stop trying to win the arguements, if WW says it is just a song I should beleive it. YOUR THOUGHT HERE...

Another tigger and this goes more to the sexual side of the affair. The phone sex and photos all took part as a result of an on line affair from a game called Second Life. If interested look at a movie on Netflix call Life 2.0. She choose to have phone sex with OM on my bed. Though it wasn't PA in terms of intercourse to me it is the same she took part in a sexual act with another man in my bed. I have told her she has to replace the matress, but money is tight right now and we haven't done it. It makes me angry and I guess more so because our three year old was home, and our 15 was researching "heard my mother masterbating" on his laptop. Something to this day she claims she can't do and that it was all faked. She claims that she even faked the phone sex all the time, she did at least admit that she was touching herself, but that she faked the orgasm....... SO PISSED!!!!! I must admit the answer to the sex part for me has been just sex not making love. The rough get in, get off, get away. We have started engaging in sex acts that we didn't do before, in that aspect I guess the affair has opened up somethings in our lives. I think that is positive for our future R efforts. Open honest communuication in terms of our sex life.

I am trying to R, as I feel I have no choice to stay with my kids. She says she is doing everything and will never do anything like this again. Which I somewhat beleive, but more so because she got caught and not out of true remorse.

Tiggers don't get easier, they are getting easier to hide.

sisoon posted 10/8/2013 10:23 AM

Small point - there's an 'r' in there - 'triggers'.

1) EA, PA - the pain is excruciating for the BS either way. I would consider phone sex to be a PA. I'm with you - I'd want a new mattress yesterday. Is there any way you can swing it? Is there something your W spends $ on only for her self? If so, the $ can be redirected to a mattress.

2) WRT the songs, she could be telling the truth; she could be lying to herself; she could be lying to you.

I suggest asking her why she put those songs on her playlist. I just can't help wondering - why those particular songs, with those particular topics and lyrics?

If she's lying to herself, asking why she chose the songs could reveal some important stuff to her and help your R.

3) I'd back off thinking of R right now, since you feel you have no choice.

Instead of committing to R, commit to 'working on your M'. During this period, work on yourself to recognize your strengths as a partner and as a father and realize you can be a good father even if you D. IMO, a person can't commit to 'yes' unless he knows 'no' is also an option.

I find R a lot easier, I think, because when it's tough and I think of giving up, I just remember that I considered and rejected the D option.

3) I'm concerned about the MC comment you report. Again, your W chose those songs for some reason. IMO that's a very reasonable question. I think your MC probably would find the answer even more helpful than you would. I wonder why he doesn't want to go there.

[This message edited by sisoon at 11:12 AM, October 8th (Tuesday)]

Scubachick posted 10/8/2013 10:48 AM

Your wife lied to you about her EA and the counselor thinks you should just take her word when she says a song about sex, affairs and leaving is just a song?? I wouldn't buy it either. It doesn't seem like your counselor is respecting your feelings at all.

Crazyman642 posted 10/9/2013 12:02 PM

First, I know there is an R missing from Triggered... Spelling isn't my chief concern at this second.

What I get alot from both the female MC and WW is that we just need to move and on, and that we can't keep rehashing the past. Well for me it isnt the past yet, I found out what seems like yesterday though we are working on three months now. WW tells me she has told me everything and there are no more secrets which based on her past and who she is as a person I doubt it. The music even if she is lying to herself how can you not look at the contect and at least say I see your point, I can understand how this can trigger a response. What makes me the most angry currently is the lack of taking responsibility. Of course there are a lot of I am sorry, and I fucked up, but i still feel the blame shift and how it wasn't a real affair. To me there is a difference between the two. Another thing that makes me angry when they call it a MISTAKE.... How is an affair a MISTAKE it is a choice to destroy something that was supposed to me special....

She could easily be lying to herself, but all that is doing is making it worse for the possibility of R. When I ask the why those songs, "oh, I just like the sound of them, I never listened to the words." WOW, amazing that so many have to do with cheating... I don't have stupid on my forehead. Dumb and trusting, but not stupid.

confused615 posted 10/9/2013 12:09 PM

Your MC is awful.

This is NOT the past.

It is NOT a mistake. it was a deliberate conscious decision.

She is not lying to herself..she is lying to you.

Are you sure she has gone NC? Are you sure the A is over?

cantaccept posted 10/9/2013 12:20 PM

I can so relate to the term "mistake", it still makes me angry.

A mistake is an addition error, a mistake is unintentional. An affair is deliberate, it is a choice. Every action is a choice.

Maybe a new MC? They are definitely not created equal. I started IC immediately after dday, the first two counselors were a joke.

The first tried to intimidate me, shut down conversations and added in some humiliation.

The second would not let me express any emotion at all. The first sign of a tear and he was trying to make me listen to the clock tick.

I finally on the third try found a great IC that we now use for MC and H will be starting IC with him also.

How about IC for you also?

Triggers are hell. It gets a bit easier once you learn what will trigger you but I still find I get "surprised" with a new one on occasion.

My IC suggests just letting it pass through me, don't fight it, feel it and at the same time try to remember it will pass, it is not happening now.

I know, not very comforting when you just want it all to be gone, to not "be" at all, but these small things do help just to get you through.

Music seem to trigger me also, I have always listened to the words. The music catches me but the words hold me. My h says much the same as your w. He doesn't pay attention to the words. I guess we are all different.

Have you read any books together? Is she remorseful, do you feel that from her?

A good one for her if she hasn't read it is "how to helpf your spouse heal from your affair", it is short, basic but very to the point.

Also, has she been on SI? Is she really working on herself? Is she doing everything that you need, or most?

I am struggling also with the outcome of all of this. What helps me now is focusing on myself, being a little selfish and doing things that make me happy. Even if it's not making dinner one night.

Also, I have been holding on to the thought that the only decision right now is that I do not have to decide anything right now. I can decide when I am ready to decide.

Post often, it helps to not feel alone.

sisoon posted 10/9/2013 13:03 PM

I know there is an R missing from Triggered

I wasn't sure you knew, and knowing the word can be important. I got your meaning fine, which is all that's really important. (I have trouble with the words with 'h' in them - effed up keyboard or typist....)

The MC's gender isn't all that relevant - a male MC could be just as bad. This one is either incompetent, has an agenda, or is inexperienced in helping people deal with infidelity. BTW, our female MC confronts all my W's bullshit and has done that from the beginning.

I'm with confused615. I agree: the A is not in the past for you - the thoughts, feelings, reactions are happening in the here and now. I also think if your W is lying to herself, her healing will be tougher than if she's just lying to you - but knowing which one she's doing is important.

I agree that accepting responsibility is absolutely key for your W - rugsweeping, blameshifting, keeping lies alive kills R and the WS's recovery, too. But some WSes dodge responsibility even though it hurts them.

You're on your own right now, without support from MC or W, so making changes in your sitch is up to you. What are you willing to do?

If you're in a venting stage, that's fine. Venting can help a lot.

If down deep you're done with your M, that's fine, too. You can D and hold your head up high.

If you want to continue to work on your M, that's fine. IMO, your first step in this direction is probably to get a new MC and maybe IC for yourself.

If you don't yet know what you want to do, that's fine, too. In that case, I suggest you check out 'the 180' - you can find info in the Healing Library, BS FAQs and in a lot of other places on the web.

Bottom line: you're being very reasonable. The obstacles to R right now are almost definitely your MC and your W, not you - and you can't work on R by yourself.

sisoon posted 10/9/2013 13:04 PM

Also, I'd be very slow to get her on SI. If she's not really committed to R, her awareness of SI can do more harm than good. JMO.

Crazyman642 posted 10/9/2013 13:14 PM

Thanks for the replay cantaccept. Always good to hear that other people are right where you are. That is the second time I have seen that book come up. I am going to go take a look and then maybe send her to go buy and read it.

The MC. in one aspect I like her because she is no nonsense like me, but then I don't know if we are on the same page. On a couple of occassion I have walked out feeling as if I was on the wrong side here. I think it is because I am the BS here, but the blame should be placed where it belongs for the affair. Now, the overall break down of the marriage falls on us both, but the choice to step outside of the vows is all on her. I am in a job where I travel the world, often. I easily could have been the guy out partying and hitting the bars for women, but no I CHOOSE to sit in my room, often taking shit from the guys for doing so. Now I am not saying I am an angel here, I normally go out once each trip and have a couple beers, but at any time I could have been the one cheating... i didn't make a MISTAKE, I made a CHOICE to respect the vows I CHOOSE to take. It seems the WW and MC wants to skip over the affair and jump right into lets move on... I feel I need to give this MC some time, I am still very angry and maybe she is trying to get me threw it. I am not in IC, I saw the MC once alone and the WW has done the same. Tomorrow there is an appointment, I was supposed to be out of town but my trip canceled. I am debating telling the WW to go it alone, she was getting way too comfortable with how things are. I have already told her that though I am not expressing my anger any more I am no less lost or confused than on day one. Maybe the book will help.

Yesterday evening was a really bad day. We had been having some fair open talk about our sex life, when I made a comment and she instantly tried to turn things around and compair a Twitter account I started to her affair. That pissed me off, then also a sexual discussion turned bad in that she claims she is not the type of woman that does "dirty" sexual things. My response (in anger) was what was having phone sex on my bed with another man outside our marriage? It went downhill from there. She needs to know that just because I don't run around acting pissed off, I am and VERY hurt. She shows all kinds of remorse, saying she is sorry and how important I am, and how she wishes she could take it all back. I still feel like a meal ticket for the confortable life she has grown used to...

FML..... :-) all we can do it take it one day at a time. I currently have the Serenity Prayer as my backroung on the FB why WW spouse created for me. (Thats another story..) If you ever need to vent I am here thanks for listening to me


Scubachick posted 10/9/2013 13:36 PM

I get the "I made a mistake" bs too. I tell him the first time might have been a mistake but the 2nd, 3rd and 4th times were intentional. Then he says "yeah, but I stopped after the 4th time. I didn't do it again because I knew it was wrong". Gee.,I feel so much better.

LoveActually posted 10/9/2013 13:49 PM


Being betrayed is one of the most painful things on the planet. My husband had a 12 month long distance EA but they were able to get physical over a 3 day period and I can tell you the emotional side of their affair hurts me FAR more then the actual physical time they were together. I'm 4.5 years out and I still trigger over certain things and when I do I seek out my husband for support to get past it. I would hit the ceiling if a counselor or my FWS told me to get over it --it was in the past or it's just a song no big deal. First, I would find a new counselor and second your wife needs to understand that you are forever changed by what she has done which is a lot of damage that needs to be repaired. It may and probably will take you years to work through this and if so tough, she gets to support you through it--that's what reconciliation is about. You don't have to minimize or hurry up and get past your feelings for anyone.

they are getting easier to hide

Don't do this to yourself. Don't stuff anything down because you don't want to make ripples. The best advice I can give you is when things come up talk about them with your wife immediately. She needs to know how much pain she has caused you in that moment and she needs to help you through it--and yes, even if it's about "just" a song.

Crazyman642 posted 10/10/2013 09:42 AM

Thanks for the posts, they all help.

Several people told me about the book "How to help you spouse heal from your affair." I told her she will buy and read it, so she went last night to buy it from our local book store, which of course doesn't carry it. But she did make the effort, so I ordered it from amazon. Will be here is a few days I hope this will help her to understand her role in the R process. Our MC, I am undeceided on. Can't tell if she is getting us through the crisis first and then will work on the marriage, or if she just really sucks as a Time will tell. I do like her nature though, so i will give her some time.

As for hiding the outburst. We have three children living in the house. 15 step-son, 12 daughter, and 4 year old son. The older two know we are seeing SOMEONE to help us, but have no ideal what the WW has done. Which is good, but I find myself going around putting on the happy face all the time. It is not easy to talk when triggers hint, so I do control the presentation. Which I think the WW was misunderstanding, so I drop a small 180 on her to let her know.

Yesterday she was saying how this hurts her as well knowing what she has done to me and our marriage. I told her that her feelings really weren't my chief concern right now, that protecting and taking care of myself was my focus. She didn't like that... Was I out of line?

sisoon posted 10/10/2013 10:58 AM

my chief concern right now, that protecting and taking care of myself was my focus.

IMO, this is entirely the best way to go. R is very difficult, and you need a lot of emotional energy to do it. Healing from the initial pain frees up your energy for further healing and for putting up with a WS who has way more work to do than you do (if she wants to heal, that is). Focusing on you is the way to heal.

Feeling and expressing your feelings is, IMO, the quickest way through this. For anger, you'll probably do a lot better if you say things like, 'I'm furious that you did ____.' That's a lot more healing for yourself than 'You slut, etc.'

Grief and fear - just be aware when you feel those. Share with your W if you want to.

IDK...your response to he claim she doesn't do anything dirty seems pretty much right on to me. Confronting the crap she tells herself actually helps her, if she'll accept the help, though it sounds like she isn't ready yet.

Your say your MC is 'no nonsense', but you report her doing/saying nonsense things. The MC's client is your relationship. Coddling one or both partners does a disservice to the relationship.

You know what you want. People here are confirming it's what you need. If you don't want to fire this MC, consider raising the issues with her that you've raised here.

Also, ask her about her experience helping people R. You're apparently in business. You can figure out the key performance indicators - ask the MC for a report.

Crazyman642 posted 10/11/2013 09:19 AM

Worse than in business, in law enforcement. Which makes this all even harder that I didn't do something sooner in my own house. I saw the signs and felt it in my gut. I just didn't follow through since i didn't want to believe or be the over bearing LE husband.

As for MC. I have started a different approach. i sent her a post from here that hit me and my WW like a ton of bricks. Detailed alot of how I am feeling and how another MC is working. i am going to ask for that approach, if she can't do it I guess it is time for a new MC.

Also, WW and I are attending and IMAGO marriage retreat this weekend. Just us luck....

Scubachick posted 10/11/2013 12:05 PM

How was your marriage before this happened? Did you trust her? Were you guys communicating?

[This message edited by Scubachick at 3:23 PM, November 18th (Monday)]

sisoon posted 10/11/2013 13:19 PM

I wish you the best of luck at the retreat. Imago helps lots of people, but, as you say, good luck always helps.

I think you indicated LE before I wrote; sorry I forgot.

We all have a bias toward believing people we love. Ignoring the signs is normal. Take it easy on yourself.

Crazyman642 posted 10/11/2013 13:22 PM

No we didn't communicate well.. OBVIOUSLY!!!! LMAO... We have always had issues since we married hurriedly because she was pregant with my daughter. We had already talked about it, but it rushed it along and didn't give us time to discuss a lot of issues we should have they began problems later in our marriage. As for trust, I loved that woman blind. I easily would have taken a bullet for her without thinking twice. Even when I saw the signs glowing, blinking, screaming clues in my face I thought no. Some in hind sight was also my arrogance. I thought she had found the best man she ever would. That I was DA MAN!!!! Lol. guess she showed me... but I didn't want to be he LE guy in our relationship. even though I knew... Trust in our relationship had never been a thought. what is bad i introduced her to on line gaming. Few years ago as a family we played a first person shooter game and laughing called it marriage therapy. we could shoot each other all we wanted. alughed and joked, sat and drank beers in a family server and all played together. She moved to a differenet game, I got busy or bored and stopped playing so much. Once again, just another slap. I gave her the tools to cheat on me with.... is there an icon for pulling my hair out???

keptmypromise posted 10/11/2013 13:23 PM

I don't think you are wrong about the songs at all. My wife also had a change in what she liked musically, and as you said, they were about sex, leaving, and finding yourself. This was one of the "red flags " for me (one of several). Over 2 years later, if I hear one of those songs played during that time, it takes me back to a bad place. I say bullshit to the councellor and your wife.

eachdayisvictory posted 10/12/2013 05:58 AM

Crazyman642, you are so fresh and close to the trauma of the A, I feel for what you are going through.
If I may offer my thoughts, I think that I heard from our MC and my IC several times early on that I should not marinate in the past. I remember being very confused and offended by these suggestions, knowing full well that I deserved all the truth I wanted from my fWH, and that until I felt satisfied - there was no chance of us staying together without total truth.
But as I thought about what the therapists were trying to say, I believe they weren't telling me that I couldn't ask about the past (although that's what it felt like), it was the advice for long-term recovery. I am 8 months out now, I feel like I have asked every question that I want answered, and I feel totally free to ask any question that may come up in the future. The job that I am currently engaged in, which was born of those recommendations, is to not live in the pain of the betrayal and the past. Any effort that you can spend in that effort is well worth it - for YOU. However, I think you're a little close to the discovery to expect yourself to do any of that yet.
I found that the best way to communicate during those early days was to practice taking turns. We would have to prepare ourselves to listen without interrupting and try to set aside our defenses and reactions until it was our turn to talk.

So maybe the MC is trying to get at that point?

Keep moving forward. You can do it, do what's right for you.

Sending you support and hope.

FeelingMN posted 10/12/2013 08:04 AM

I had to respond because I had a similar issue with a song. My wife posted a line of lyrics on FB and blocked me from the post. Something to the effect of "... in my dreams I slew the dragon". The lyric was from a Colin Hay song, Waiting for my real life to begin. FWW swore that she just liked that one line but it was just too coincidental. I didn't believe her then, and don't believe her now and doubt I ever will. You don't need to accept what she says at face value. What I'm learning though is you can't force them to see what you see and feel what you feel. That's up to them.

if WW says it is just a song I should believe it.

I'd call bullshit and say that that type of trust can be earned through BS's work, not cheaply given away.

I'd consider a new MC. The definitely aren't the same.

IMO, a person can't commit to 'yes' unless he knows 'no' is also an option.

I second this thought. I've become much better at asking for the things I need from FWW because I've accepted that staying together is not a foregone conclusion. It's hard but for me it has been a magnificent change.

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