I have asked for a written timeline, which he says he already did. Which consisted of a few sentences telling me how he thinks it started with no times, places or details.
I have asked a million questions tons of different ways, and gotten conflicting answers. The only thing he has never faltered on is that he never kissed her, which I DO NOT BELIEVE, and she only tried to give him bj one time, but he stopped her.
I am really struggling with the fact that he can only remember having intercourse less than 10 times in 3 yrs, even though he saw her almost every day, for most of the PA more than once a day. I finally had an epiphany. tell me if it makes sense. I can give a pretty close guestimate as to how many times I had sex with different people in my life in short term relationships. But in my longterm relationships, I can't tell you how many times at all (including, of course my FWH) because it happened on such a regular basis, that nothing stands out. So I told him this and told him it must have happened anywhere from once to several times a week, if my figuring is an accurate theory. He still says 20 times is definitely more than how many times they could have possibly had sex.
However, we found out in summer of 09 that she was pregnant (this just a few weeks after she had told me her husband hadn't touched her in over a year). The husband made the announcement to us and when I said, "How did that happen?!?" He said, "It just takes one time." My FWH finally after several times of me asking, admitted that he knew the child was probably his, because he knew he had sex with her several times in that 2 month period before we found out about pregnancy (he says he called it off 2 weeks before the ANNOUNCEMENT). Yet the only location on his list where they could have had sex for the entire year of 2009, he only can remember 2 times of sex there. Which is obviously way off base. Saying they had to have had sex at least 4 times the 2 months previous to finding out about pregnancy, which still leaves 6 months of the year for them to have sex at that location. It is really driving me nuts.
He has told me many times. He is done and absolutely cannot remember anymore and knows he never will, therefore, he's done trying, and will not write a timeline (since he thinks the few little sentences he wrote down consist of a timeline.) He has been gone for nearly a week, and has now told me once again, that he will continue trying to "remember" and will write the timeline to the best of his ability.
I don't think we can begin the true R until I get this info, or at least until I see a genuine attempt at a real TRYING to remember.
I have been detaching, but when he shows progress, I get sucked back in, and allow him to manipulate my emotions. I am back into detaching mode, but continuing to discuss R, only if he will agree to the list of requirements I have given him in order to have my emotional needs met for R in the marriage.
Any words of wisdom, or ideas on how to make WH remember this huge length of time (that I see as a secret the two of them still share, that I am not part of).
Gently: I think it's very simple and it sounds like you already know the answer. Either he gives you a full timeline and comes clean (he hasn't yet - if your gut is telling you there's more there and things don't add up, especially if he keeps contradicting himself, there's more there), or you can't reconcile.
I completely understand how easy it is to get sucked back in, I did, I didn't handle that situation as well as I would have liked. Because you want him to be telling the truth so badly. And I completely understand how easy it is to get twisted in knots over what he's doing, but what he's doing is not facing down his issues and not helping you. I do think that unless you put your foot down very, very hard (and be prepared to follow through), and demand full honesty, some effort on his part, and a complete timeline, there's nothing left to say.
Again, I'm no model BS, I didn't follow through on all of my threats, but I did on some of them and those are the ones that got actual results. I'm sorry you're going through this, it's so tough!
7 years of double-digit ONS, LTA, hookers - the works.
First found out: August 20, 2013
Whole truth: January 1, 2014
Has he done any other reading? Like the books Not Just Friends, After the Affair, or How to help your Spouse heal from your Affair?
I never got a written timeline. My fWS rarely volunteered information. I pieced a timeline together through question and answer. "I don't know" was an unacceptable answer. I berated her with questions everyday for months until the story made sense to me. It was definitely the hard way, but it did work.
I could not move forward without the truth. I needed to know what I was moving forward from.
I DON'T WANT TO TELL YOU
My husband had 4AP's over a 4 year period. When DDay#2 happened, his LTS (over 2 years) and AP#1 had been over for quite some time.
I pushed and pushed for answers. He remembered everything but just didn't want to tell me. Once he realized how important it was that I know, he did tell me. Otherwise, we would not have been able to R.
You've posted before about your husband being unwilling to do much to help you heal. Gently...are you trying to save this marriage by yourself? If so, it won't ever work. If he isn't willing to be honest, transparent, and meet your needs how does he plan to R? Just forget about it? I assume that's his plan based on previous posts of yours. Rug sweeping never works, you will not heal properly and resentment will grow.
Former 80s Icon wishful thinking
One problem is that maintaining his privacy - which is worthwhile, IMO - also allows him to dodge responsibility, and I don't see how he can heal if he does that.
Also, R (and any M I'd want to be part of) requires opening up to each other, forgoing any power struggle. So if this is only one power struggle out of many, it sounds like it could be a large problem even without infidelity. (JMO, of course.)
I don't see how you can resolve this without a mediator of some sort - IC who sees you both or MC.
I don't like Joseph's Letter much - it comes over as very weak and whiny to me. I thought about using it; I even tried to edit it. In the end, I basically told my W, 'Come clean or we're done.' Fortunately that worked for us. But I don't think I'd have ever used Joseph's Letter....
At least we have the support of the people here. I posted this on a different site years ago and was told that since it was in the past I should be glad he isn't cheating now. Made me want to barf.
The part where I may not be able to help, as it's my problem too, is what to actually do about it. If we flat out say we need disclosure and they flat out deny it, well then what's there to do? Maybe give up but I haven't yet.
I'm sorry I'm not more help right now. But I'm definitely thinking of you. I'll follow along. And if I have any brilliant insights I'll let you know.
I finally gave myself the gift of forgivenss and peace inside a few weeks ago. It doesn't hurt as much anymore.
I really, really understand you more than you know...Good luck sweetie. Wishing you well. Don't force the forgiveness, it has to be earned. My H "didn't remember" for about half a year until all his shit was in trash bags.
All I can say is it takes time. Time. A lot of time. And that damn time, in all honesty, we don't have time for!! Time was my enemy during my first year. Now, I'm finding peace living in a wounded body and soul. I finally feel like everything is going to be alright. Sending you a big hug and a glass of wine. I know your fury all too well.
Gratitude to you all and I'll BRB.
I told him that I was sure I would never know 100% of the story, and I knew that he was not going to bust out with it tomorrow with all of it in one full shot - (since I've been digging, begging, screaming and threatening him for over a year), but if he was not willing to start writing a real timeline and continue to work on it and continue to TRY that I couldn't continue. I explained that I had seen him (being generous) give thought to the A for maybe 2 hours over the last 400+ days, while in the meantime, it took up every waking moment for me.
CHICHO - I found Joseph's letter many many months ago, somewhere on the internet, and gave it to him. I recently put another item on top of his stack of reading material that I have asked him to read. He has yet to find the last one, since he has not touched his timeline or list of my "musts" since he got home yesterday afternoon.
Heartache, the OW pretended to cooperate in the beginning, because she thought I would get my H to suddenly become interested in OC - and that I would feed him info on the kid - WRONG. But she was lying, which I knew. She tried to downplay the A - for FWH sake(she loves him still), and even though she shortened the time for his benefit by over 2 years, her fake recollection of how many times was still more than his. I've also told him this.
Tried to contact the BS a couple of months ago, but don't know if he changed # or just ignored my text. I left txt msg that didn't get an answer. I am pretty sure she told him that FWH & I were trying to take the OC away from him. She has lost all her parental rights and is currently incarcerated.
And FWH is so computer and techno illiterate, unfortunately, there were no texts, emails, photos or anything else like that. In fact, I still have old emails of mine that date back to 2004, which is partly how I came up with the timeline of our life and those around us, to try to trigger his memories.
I also don't know why I believe that he really doesn't remember what happened, but I do. However, I also believe he is not trying to remember and thinks that he's not willing to and too lazy to drag up all the details and write it down. It also ended - for him - (she was still around and still in the relationship and they were still in contact for years afterward ) over 4 yrs ago.
Today I am frustrated and crying and after telling me (or at least that's what I heard) that he had decided NOT to go to deer camp for 1-1/2 weeks, he now tells me that's not what he said. He says he told me that he just wanted to spend some time with me before he leaves. To me, that means he wants to have sex before he goes, and right now, I'm thinking that's not going to happen. Seriously, thinking about telling him he needs to go ahead and head out first thing tomorrow.
[This message edited by broken0912 at 6:51 PM, October 17th (Thursday)]
Chicho, thanks for the refernce to "Joseph's letter". I just pasted it into an e-mail message to me wife.