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Newest Member: 2ndtimernd (45746)

User Topic: Frustrated, could use some advice maybe 2x4s
Cannaman
♂ 33834
Member # 33834
Default  Posted: 11:15 AM, October 22nd (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Personally I am in a good spot, I am free of medications, no longer drinking, smoking cigs, or popping pills, exercising 3x a week and eating healthy (looking pretty damn good because of it if I do say so myself), and more in control of my emotions than I have ever been. But I am frustrated and frightened.
My fWW still holds on to the emotional needs justification, but thinks it is ridiculous if I say perhaps my drug addiction wouldn't have happened if I were getting my emotional needs met. (Incidentally, i do not believe this, just trying to turn the logic around)
She also has told me on repeated occasions that she doesn't know what I am doing here and that I need to leave, trying to imply that I am not committed. When I point out all the changes I have made since Dday and the fact that I am still here as proof of my commitment and ask how she is meeting me halfway and what changes she has made, she struggles to name any. I purchased a copy of The Five Love Languages back in December, I had heard about it here and her councilor also recommended it. I read it and tried to do some acts of service for her which I believed to be her primary love language. I know I shouldn't be doing it for a response, but after experimenting for a month or so and getting the feeling that the actions and myself were just being taken for granted, and seeing that she wasn't even reading the book, I got tired and stopped. I have tried on occasion to do nice gestures, most recently buying flowers and having our daughter pick them out at the florist, so there would be fresh cut flowers waiting on the counter for her after her first day of work following a vacation. However, because I didn't present them to her when she walked in, and because when she asked where they came from I said I had our daughter pick them out, she got defensive and angry.

Yesterday we "talked" about this and other things. When I said to her that I am frustrated because I feel as though she isn't trying and doesn't care to put in the effort and has put me in an impossible situation, she of course doesn't see it that way. She claims if she wasn't trying she wouldn't have told me her councilor (whom she doesn't see anymore) recommended The Five Love Languages, I am just supposed to ignore the fact that she hasn't actually read it, she also has belittled me for telling her that my primary love language is physical touch and that sex is important to me and a big part of it.
She said she gets defensive when I do the nice things for her because she has been hurt in the past, I told her that is her issue that she needs to figure out, but until she does I am in an impossible situation where if I am nice it is met as suspect and therefore I am an asshole and if I am not doing nice things then I am an asshole.

Not too long ago after telling me I need to stop listening to podcasts and reading things online and bringing up "facts" (all of which have led and inspired me to make the positive changes that I have made) and that instead I need to open my eyes and ears and listen to "people", I couldn't hide my reaction and had a shocked look on my face and let out a chuckle, she drew back like she was going to strike me and left. When we talked about this she almost refuses to acknowledge that she acted that way and instead tries to focus on my "laughing in her face."

I can see the frustration affecting my children as their behavior is getting more aggressive so much so that I had a conversation with my five year old the other day about curse words. I told her that they can be a way of venting some steam and are much more appropriate than being physical with someone or something, however many people don't see it like that so it is important to not swear around other people or in school, but when she is with me if she swears because she is frustrated or whatever, that I won't be mad at her, I couldn't be, I use those words myself and am not bothered by them, but that is just with me. I told my wife about this conversation and she interpreted it as giving our daughter carte blanch to speak like a sailor, she asked our daughter what she thought I meant and our daughter told her that I said it was ok to swear around me, but that she wasn't going to because it's not appropriate. (She has sworn before, with some obvious thrill, testing the waters.) I thought that response shows that she gets it, further lines of questioning, like is it ok to swear at school would have further illustrated her level of understanding and I plan on asking her those things when she gets home from school tonight.
She is furious with me about this because I didn't consult her before having this conversation with our daughter.
Fairly certain we are on the fast track to the Big D, and am horrified. I have made myself virtually unemployable and will lose the only stable, but small source of income I have if I leave. Having grown up with a single mother and hardly ever seeing my father, I know how much damage that can do, but our current situation is damaging as well, and my wife doesn't seem to think it has anything to do with her.

If you've made it this far thanks for reading. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

[This message edited by Cannaman at 1:05 PM, October 22nd (Tuesday)]


m BS/ FWBF/ F pill addict binge drinker 33 h FWW/ BGF 34
d 5 s 3
My A: ONS 2003 other inappropriate behavior/ poor boundaries
Her A: 5 month EA/PA 2011
DDay 8/30/11 (I caught her and confessed to mine)
married 3 years, together 15 working on R/

Posts: 397 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: right behind you
plainpain
♀ 40139
Member # 40139
Default  Posted: 12:04 PM, October 22nd (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't have any advice, really, except to say that you need to just keep taking care of yourself. It sounds like you have worked really hard, and you should feel proud of yourself. Just getting out of bed in the morning makes me feel accomplished. I'm so sorry for your pain. You did nothing to deserve this. You have put a lot of thoughtful energy and effort into your M, but you can only control you in a relationship. I never did the 180, since my H 180d all on his own... but it sounds to me like maybe that's something you might want to look into?


Me: Believer; 40s
Him: Liar; 40s
Married 19 years
1 year EA/2 month PA/incidental infidelities I can't begin to process
OC born 2014
OW:21
In successful R, but still in just plain pain.

Posts: 809 | Registered: Jul 2013
Crushed1
♀ 6449
Member # 6449
Default  Posted: 1:31 PM, October 22nd (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It appears that she isn't working on *herself* and is making mountains out of molehills, blameshifting insignificant things onto you for her 'justifications'. No, you can't deal with someone like that. But you can continue to work on yourself and improve yourself. Congrats on the good changes you've made with that. Keep taking care of you.


~~"You can't run away from yourself"!!! Me to my H when he descended into adultery insanity.
~~Prov.15:13 "By sorrow of the heart the spirit is broken"
~~"The day breaks-your mind aches"
~STRENGTH~PEACE~HOPE~FAITH

Posts: 9822 | Registered: Feb 2005 | From: Texas
slater13
♂ 39008
Member # 39008
Default  Posted: 1:36 PM, October 22nd (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wander on down to betrayed menz forum in I can Relate. You may find some help there.


The choices we make reveal the true nature of our character

Posts: 162 | Registered: Apr 2013
MediumRare
♂ 35128
Member # 35128
Default  Posted: 1:56 PM, October 22nd (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

... if she wasn't trying she wouldn't have told me her councilor (whom she doesn't see anymore)...

That tells the whole story, right there.

Sorry to say this, but you wont see your fWW make any progress until she dedicates herself to full IC.

You will drive yourself crazy trying to reach her because her mind is already made-up. SHE is the victim here and you will never break down that wall, only a trained and experienced IC over weeks/months or possibly years can, provided she is willing to change instead of curl-up with her issues and seek people to enable/support a cushion to keep those issues strong and deeply embedded.

Look at reality a bit and you will see this is the case. Your fWW sounds like my WS, whom you can do all the house work, all the shopping, all the laundry, all the bills, all the repairs, all the everything... then when you say you feel like you're doing most of the work, they will complain that they are doing too much (despite not being able to list one thing) and you're selfish and insensitive for even bringing up their total lack of contribution LOL.

[This message edited by MediumRare at 1:56 PM, October 22nd (Tuesday)]


BS (ME): 44
WS(HER): 42
9 years
OM#1- 20-something loser, stole bunch of my things after she had sex with him in our bed (no condoms, STDs)
OM#2- 24 year old, unemployed loser, lives with mom & dad
DDay 1/2012
NC 3/20/2012
SGASDay 4/1/2012

Posts: 722 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: California
gma56
♀ 19595
Member # 19595
Default  Posted: 1:56 PM, October 22nd (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You have every right to be frustrated. WW hasn't done enough and isn't doing anything now to change a damn thing to fix the mess she created.
I have a feeling the flowers are one of many attempts by you to soften and please her.But she doesn't seem to want to be happy with anything you do for her.

Does she love you ? I ask because from what you wrote, she's just doing time in the marriage right now. Her heart isn't in it.

Do you love her? Not the old her or the mother of your kids,her as she is now ?

You can't fix her, change her, or make her love you.

What will it take to become employable again ? Start working on that now. I didn't when the flags started to show and I'm struggling now.
Big Hugs and start the 180 so you can move forward with or without her.
Gma



BW-Divorced
It's my life now, my choices, my mistakes to make and my victories to celebrate. His choices made me free of liars and betrayers in my life. That is priceless.

Posts: 20387 | Registered: May 2008 | From: Closer to where I want to be..
silverhopes
♀ 32753
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 1:59 PM, October 22nd (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

That sounds like a very hard situation. Have you two attended MC? I notice you two are madhatters. That makes this situation even more complicated. At best, the partners are working together as a team to heal from both betrayals and still going through a ton of pain while doing it (but still doing it). At much worse, one partner is doing the work and the other isn't.

Have you both read any books together? I'd recommend both reading "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair" by Linda J. MacDonald, maybe even reading together, and trying to work together on each infidelity (giving one the complete floor at any one discussion time instead of trying to compare the two). Maybe that book will help make it clear to your W that there is no excuse ("emotional needs" justification etc) for having an A - it is a CHOICE that the individual makes. But the problem is that if your W is unwilling to do the work, then there's nothing anyone can to do make her. Encouragement, sure, but if she doesn't do the work, it's because she's chosen not to, and in that case, how will you take care of yourself?

Does she prefer to rugsweep the As? Just hers? Does she get stuck on something and, in spite of attempts at reconciliation about it, refuse to discuss anything else? It sounds like IC would really help her to deal with the CSA. It also sounds like there are a lot of things you guys would be working through. It's possible, but only if both folks are on board. And you can only control if you're on board.

I'm sorry. I wish I had better advice for you. You might check out either the Betrayed Men forum or the Madhatter one. Keep working on yourself. It sounds like - with no longer drinking or popping pills, exercise, etc - you're going the right way. Keep going.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 2:01 PM, October 22nd (Tuesday)]


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
DefeatedDad
♂ 41026
Member # 41026
Default  Posted: 1:59 PM, October 22nd (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Make sure the affair has not started up again. Do some sleuthing. She may have gotten back with her AP and has gotten better at hiding it.

An ongoing affair is one major reason a WS won't work on themselves. Why should they have to?


Me - BS 46
Wife - WS 44
Son 13, Daughter 17
Married 22 years
D-day May 16, 2012
TT D-Day 2 9/25/17
TT D-Day 3 1/02/14

Divorcing her sorry a--.


Posts: 217 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: New Mexico
RyeBread
♂ 37437
Member # 37437
Default  Posted: 2:32 PM, October 22nd (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sounds like you feel stuck between a rock and a hard place. Kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't situation with your WW. Completely maddening I know, I was there for years.

At this point I think it's important to really come to understand and accept that the only thing you can control is yourself. If what you do is met with defensiveness or turns into an arguement then I say stop doing it. Even if it's a nice thing. Obviously it's not being taken that way for whatever reason so no need to feed the fire. Maybe take a step back and really focus on you and your kids (see 180 in the healing library). If your wife doesn't want to work at it then thats on her. You can't nice her back into being invested in the marriage. She has to want it too.

I say get your things in order in case the D does happen. Be ready. Protect yourself and your kids. Know your rights. Focus on you now. Get any education or training or experience you need to broaden your employment options. During that time just observe your wife and her actions. You'll know whether she wants to change things or not. Once you detach a little more emotionaly you will have a much clearer picture of your situation and be able to make a more rational and wiser decision on what YOU want to do.


Let him that would move the world first move himself. - Socrates

Posts: 1030 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Midwest
Cannaman
♂ 33834
Member # 33834
Default  Posted: 4:30 PM, October 22nd (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Does she love you?

I don't think so.
Do you love her? Not the old her or the mother of your kids,her as she is now ?

No. I want her to change, I want her to want to change. I do not love her as she is now and that is not fair to her or myself. Looking back I don't believe I ever really "loved" her, because I didn't love myself. We got along pretty well in what was not a healthy relationship. I don't think she loves herself, which is why I don't think she loves me. I have come to believe true love comes from within and if you don't have it for yourself, you can't give it to someone else.

Have you two attended MC? I notice you two are madhatters. That makes this situation even more complicated. At best, the partners are working together as a team to heal from both betrayals and still going through a ton of pain while doing it (but still doing it). At much worse, one partner is doing the work and the other isn't.

We've been through 4. The first we saw 4 times very close to Dday. MC advised against my seeing the texts in one of our first sessions. By the forth the three of us sat virtually in silence, MC declared we were healed and to call if we needed it. This was prior to my finding SI, we were wrapped up in HB and I was still in shock. The next MC was in the same practice as the Psych I was seeing. We saw her once and then she had medical issues and we were unable to see her again. Our third in the same practice was pregnant when we started seeing her and had the baby after 2 or 3 sessions, and we were passed to her mentor. He told me I would have been better off if she ended the affair with intentions of it being over for good and never told me. He also said lies of omission weren't lies. I almost walked out. Then he disclosed that his first marriage ended because of his wife's infidelity. We haven't seen another. My WW thinks that it is my fault that we went through so many. (Anything to paint me the villain and her the victim)
In the meantime my WW was seeing an IC. When pressed what she learned about herself over the course of seeing this person, she came up with she learned that she was not a bad person for having the A. Super glad I encouraged her to go see an enabler and not someone who would hold her feet to the fire. (Sarcasm laid on thick)

Have you both read any books together?

I have been reading. Not Just Friends, Five Love Languages, Sex at Dawn (not specifically infidelity, it is about human sexuality in general), as well as books on spirituality and growth. Bought her a copy of the Five Love Languages at the same time I bought mine. She didn't read it.

Does she prefer to rugsweep the As?

Big time. She believes this is the best way of handling things.

Make sure the affair has not started up again. Do some sleuthing. She may have gotten back with her AP and has gotten better at hiding it.

Pretty sure it hasn't, she was actually taking care of herself and trying to look good when she was in the A. It isn't that way at all now.

Wander on down to betrayed menz forum in I can Relate. You may find some help there.

Thanks, I will.

My daughter arrived home from school and we spoke. She seems to have understood the point I was trying to make with her. I also apologized that she has to hear her mother and I fighting so much, that it isn't appropriate, and that it doesn't mean we don't love her.
I told her that sometimes in grown up relationships people get really frustrated with each other and have a hard time not fighting.
I am the comedian in the family, and my daughter said, "Maybe you can just make fun of each other and be silly and get back together."
The innocence in what she said ripped my heart to shreds and I had to turn away because I started to cry. As I type this I am balling. I don't want to break that little girl's heart, but it is out of my hands and I don't know what to do.

[This message edited by Cannaman at 4:33 PM, October 22nd (Tuesday)]


m BS/ FWBF/ F pill addict binge drinker 33 h FWW/ BGF 34
d 5 s 3
My A: ONS 2003 other inappropriate behavior/ poor boundaries
Her A: 5 month EA/PA 2011
DDay 8/30/11 (I caught her and confessed to mine)
married 3 years, together 15 working on R/

Posts: 397 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: right behind you
silverhopes
♀ 32753
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 4:43 PM, October 22nd (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It sounds like 2 of the 4 MCs discontinued because of life circumstances (pregnancy, medical issues) and the other 2 were clueless. With regard to the two who discontinued due to life circumstances, did it seem like (in the short time you guys got to see them) they had experience and a handle on infidelity? If so, then would they be able to recommend any other competent MCs?

I'm curious to know, how did your wife respond to the idea/request of reading a book together? Did she refuse the idea from the very start, or did she express interest but then not follow through?

Have you two written timelines for each other?

I'm sorry if I'm asking questions you have already answered, just trying to cover every idea.

What was her response to this?:

My fWW still holds on to the emotional needs justification, but thinks it is ridiculous if I say perhaps my drug addiction wouldn't have happened if I were getting my emotional needs met.

For that matter, does she blame your ONS on herself, or does she see the ridiculousness of that? If she doesn't blame herself for your actions, then why does she expect you to shoulder the blame for hers? If, on the other hand, she DOES blame herself for your choices, then she might really need to get into IC. I am very curious about where her ideas of responsibility lie. What does she believe she is responsible for?


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
Cannaman
♂ 33834
Member # 33834
Default  Posted: 5:58 PM, October 22nd (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

did it seem like (in the short time you guys got to see them) they had experience and a handle on infidelity? If so, then would they be able to recommend any other competent MCs?

They both subscribed to the A being a symptom of a troubled marriage and the emotional needs justification.

I'm curious to know, how did your wife respond to the idea/request of reading a book together? Did she refuse the idea from the very start, or did she express interest but then not follow through?

She refused to come on SI and wanted me off here. I called her from the bookstore the day I bought TFLL, and asked if she wanted me to buy her a copy. She said yes, but never read it. Now when I bring it up she insists that it was her idea, and that the fact that she told me her councilor recommended the book proves that she is trying.

Have you two written timelines for each other?

No

What was her response to this?:

That it is ridiculous of me to make such an analogy and that it is wrong of me to do so. She gets mad whenever I make any kind of analogy. I think she views it as me talking down to her.

For that matter, does she blame your ONS on herself, or does she see the ridiculousness of that? If she doesn't blame herself for your actions, then why does she expect you to shoulder the blame for hers?

No, she doesn't. She also doesn't see what she is doing as blaming me at all.


m BS/ FWBF/ F pill addict binge drinker 33 h FWW/ BGF 34
d 5 s 3
My A: ONS 2003 other inappropriate behavior/ poor boundaries
Her A: 5 month EA/PA 2011
DDay 8/30/11 (I caught her and confessed to mine)
married 3 years, together 15 working on R/

Posts: 397 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: right behind you
DefeatedDad
♂ 41026
Member # 41026
Default  Posted: 6:27 PM, October 22nd (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

She just sounds entitled and flat out unremorseful to me.

Could be all those years on the bottle and popping pills destroyed her love for you. Now she sees you as really nothing more than a meal ticket and ATM.

This is no marriage.


Me - BS 46
Wife - WS 44
Son 13, Daughter 17
Married 22 years
D-day May 16, 2012
TT D-Day 2 9/25/17
TT D-Day 3 1/02/14

Divorcing her sorry a--.


Posts: 217 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: New Mexico
Cannaman
♂ 33834
Member # 33834
Default  Posted: 1:23 PM, October 23rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

DefeatedDad, I think you are mostly right, other than the meal ticket and ATM comment. She has been the primary bread winner, I am a stay at home Dad, but do manage to earn some income here and there.

I do appreciate all the input, I am fairly certain what I have to do. Just terrified of the short term pain it will cause my kids, and what kind of messages she will tell them about me.


m BS/ FWBF/ F pill addict binge drinker 33 h FWW/ BGF 34
d 5 s 3
My A: ONS 2003 other inappropriate behavior/ poor boundaries
Her A: 5 month EA/PA 2011
DDay 8/30/11 (I caught her and confessed to mine)
married 3 years, together 15 working on R/

Posts: 397 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: right behind you
Topic Posts: 14

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