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WH said: "There's nothing more to talk about"

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mchercheur posted 10/28/2013 06:11 AM

"We've gone thru this already. I know I made a terrible mistake & I've learned from it.
I don't see any point in looking at my childhood anymore."
(I believe that a lot of WH's brokeness came from his FOO--NPD mother who is an unremorsful WW & OW herself/childhood emotional abuse, & have been trying to get him to look at it in MC)

So where do we go from here? What do I say to that?

sisoon posted 10/28/2013 06:37 AM

Gently, I think I'd find inquiries by my W into my childhood intrusive and time-wasting. I'm puzzled, so I'm asking some Qs here....

Why is this a topic for MC? (I ask because it sounds like a topic for IC.)

I don't really care about the origins of my W's dysfunctions (or of my own or of anybody else's) - I just want my W to change. (Her change process turns out to be way different from mine, BTW.) So how will talking about his childhood help you?

I think a WS is on the hook for answering any and all Qs about the A, but I don't understand why you're delving into FOO issues. What do you hope to accomplish by that sort of Q?

Or is your H using a complaint about one or 2 Qs about his childhood as an excuse to keep from answering lots of Qs?

Thanks.

RockyMtn posted 10/28/2013 06:51 AM

I'm with sisoon on this. If he's avoiding A questions in general...well, that's different. If he just doesn't want to speak of his childhood, then I'd give him some space. I feel BS have to give WS the reins of their individual healing. Not everyone has to understand every element of their FOO in order to change. It sounds like you may be trying to control his process, rather than play a supporting role.

mchercheur posted 10/28/2013 06:57 AM

Thanks for answering.

It sounds like you may be trying to control his process, rather than play a supporting role.

I see what you both are saying. This is not my place & I will stop doing this.

Our MC was supposed to be WH's IC ( I am going to different IC) , but WH said he had nothing to talk about, so his IC ended up being our MC.
WH is happy go lucky & doesn't think we have anything to talk about.


I just want to feel better.

sisoon posted 10/28/2013 08:23 AM

WH said he had nothing to talk about....

That's a different matter, IMO.

Doesn't your H see a need for him to make changes?

Does your MC suggest IC for him?

mchercheur posted 10/28/2013 08:34 AM

I guess WH feels that he has made some changes since he moved back home.
Right after Dday, he was going to our MC as his IC, but felt he had nothing to talk about, so that's when his counselor started seeing both of us together.

I guess I just have to accept that WH is not introspective.

I just don't know what to do to make myself feel better. I feel so trapped.

[This message edited by mchercheur at 8:34 AM, October 28th (Monday)]

Blobette posted 10/28/2013 10:07 AM

Not being introspective is what got him into this mess in the first place. He's avoiding something -- feeling, strong emotion, whatever. And that's what's driving the insanity. If he can't face up to that..

mchercheur posted 10/28/2013 10:20 AM

Blobette, that's what I have thought until now. I feel like I have been pushing pushing pushing him to look ...
but he really has to want to, I can't force him. I really have to let go.
Maybe I have to do some kind of 180

No12turn2 posted 10/28/2013 10:24 AM

Learning myself that the WS will not do anything unless they want to. I say feel blessed that the R process is in place and let the process work. No one ever says it is easy or that it is a short process.

No12turn2 posted 10/28/2013 10:24 AM

Learning myself that the WS will not do anything unless they want to. I say feel blessed that the R process is in place and let the process work. No one ever says it is easy or that it is a short process.

heartache101 posted 10/28/2013 10:38 AM

(((mchercheur)))
I read your profile and from what you wrote here you have an unremoreseful rug sweeping spouse.
You can not allow him to not be open and talk to you. You feel uneasy rigtfully so. Has he told his bosses what he has done? Has he told his parents? I hear you and you know in your gut what you need to do. When you are strong enough you will react. Till then gather your info hire the PI.
You can not trust someone who stomps on your heart every day.
I am sorry been where you are and my spouse found a different job thank god. But my spouse never talked to me either about his women he hides his head in the sand. My spouse did the same thing weight loss etc etc....
I am sooo sorry you hurt.... Get stronger you will be ok...

blakesteele posted 10/28/2013 10:43 AM

I don't really care about the origins of my W's dysfunctions (or of my own or of anybody else's) - I just want my W to change. (Her change process turns out to be way different from mine, BTW.) So how will talking about his childhood help you?

Sisoon....a first here....but my take differs from you on this. You say you just want your W to change. You ask how questions about her childhood would help a BS. I think without questions we stand more of a chance of stagnating our growth, stopping our "change" that we desire.

In order to change....really change, not just "mask" it like we did during our childhood....we need to find where that item we desire to change came from and what stimulates us to perpetuate our own unhealthy ways. We need to do the work we did not do, were not capable of doing in our childhood. Maybe you are contending we dont need to find out where a bad habit or unhealthy coping mechanism came from....we just need to admit we have one and desire to change it? I kinda get this...but also feel the more we know about where it came from the better equipped we will be to identify the "feeling" of when we are about to engage in the bad behavior that we want to change. The sooner we can become aware of the "temptation" to engage the bad behavior the sooner, easier it will be for us to "change" our minds on how we prefer to operate...and not slip into "default mode".

I suggest this because during my IC sessions my counselor has worked with me to become more self aware of situations and stimulants that would normally engage me to use FOO coping mechanisms. This is why I have such a heightened sense of "danger" when I find myself doing things that have traditionally been motivated by my FOO issues.

I get that it may not be the role of a BS to be the help-mate for our fWS to get this done....that IC sessions do that. What I am suggesting is that our fWS sharing their journey to addressing their issues in childhood that enabled a pattern to develop that eventually led them to adultery as an option for "dealing with life".

I would love it if my wife would share this without my feeling the need to question.... but when it doesn't I ask questions. This speaks to my FOO issues and I am working on that. In the meantime I believe our fWS's have a role to answer such questions without minimizing the true affect they have on R.

I am learning words, questions and details are merely a part of R. A larger part is the openness and lack of defensiveness between my wife and I.

And this is a brand new way of both of us to interact....have faith it will lead to a brand new way if connecting sometime in the future.

So keep asking questions, keep offering opportunities for your husband to step up. Step up yourself when you can too. I am amazed how much room I have to step up....

God be with us all.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 11:30 AM, October 28th (Monday)]

ladies_first posted 10/28/2013 11:10 AM

I just don't know what to do to make myself feel better. I feel so trapped.

Do you feel that an emotional connection is missing? Or, at 2 1/2 years out, do you still have unanswered affair questions and unanswered commitment questions?

What's trapping you?

blakesteele posted 10/28/2013 11:48 AM

Our MC was supposed to be WH's IC ( I am going to different IC) , but WH said he had nothing to talk about, so his IC ended up being our MC.

This is a flag...especially because of his desire to tell you, via his comments to you after your question, what should and should not be discussed.

My father, who is 71, contends to this day that his dads alcoholism had no affect on him...zero, nothing. At age 13 his mom left home with his younger brother, leaving him and his sister to dress their passed out Dad who was naked on the floor of the bedroom, find a realtor, sell the house, then move the house several states away where his Mom and his younger brother had already moved...and this had no effect on him? This is one of many traumatic childhood events my Dad made it through...and he contends it had zero effect on him.

My Dad routinely minimized my Moms feelings, disappeared from my life completely after the D, and continues to blame others for his lot in life. He is happy go lucky on facebook, all zen there....but when you see his life from the outside you see his failed marriage being blamed on his wife, his multiple jobs (tens of jobs) over his lifetime being blamed on ignorant bosses and evil corporate america, his debt issues on credit card companies and the D....you see a pattern of dissatisfaction and blaming others.

He has never slowed down enough to look inside himself, look to his own history to find answers as to why he does what he does...where the root of his dissatisfaction comes from. He is satisfied to "keep busy" and "keep blaming" and is fine with where he is at. He has no desire to change, his new wife is fine with this too. So this is an option for a lifetime...but it is not an option post-A with a BS establishing boundaries that says otherwise...like you are rachelc...like we all are. We in R are saying "Yeah, we have not been fullfilled by our marriages, we have both been hurt, that was okay before due to our ignorance. We know better now and are not accepting of anything but "doing better" now".

For people NOT committed to learning to R it is an option to not do better. For my wifes AP and his wife...to accept that what he did was not enough to warrant a change, to not stop and look inside themselves (she has equal power in that M too), to continue to operate as if nothing needs changed will insure that cycle repeats itself in their marriage...and it is as I write this post.

Some say identifying and exploring FOO issues are a form of blaming others for your lot in life....period! And I say that could be a case if you choose to blame rather then accept the fact that it is a part of you, it was developed as a survival mechanism because you were a child and could not process "it" in a healthy manner, and that you are now an adult who CAN process what is unfinished inside you.

By boldly stating he has nothing else to work on and that MC is where he feels the healing and growth needs to take place he appears to be shrugging the responsibility that falls on his shoulders...in a way asking you to carry some of his own load.

Kicker is, if you mchercheur, have any abandonment issues within you (like I do)...you will be tempted to accomodate his subtle request....it will feel good to you because you are engaging a long standing FOO issue within yourself. That part that tells you that it is up to you to keep him from abandoning you again.

I realize this is projection on my part. But I so dont want to go back to the way I was...was very very tough for me to recognize my wifes A had nothing to do with me, that I did not cause her to do this. I struggled with why this was in IC for months....finally I understand why this was.

The only way I could comprehend the true motives behind my actions was to examine my childhood in detail.

I am very open to being wrong on this one....I too dont want to waste time or energy, of which is in precious little supply for all of us. I just think this is a rabbit worth chasing.

Peace to us all.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 12:35 PM, October 28th (Monday)]

mchercheur posted 10/28/2013 12:55 PM

Kicker is, if you mchercheur, have any abandonment issues within you (like I do)...you will be tempted to accomodate his subtle request....it will feel good to you because you are engaging a long standing FOO issue within yourself. That part that tells you that it is up to you to keep him from abandoning you again.

Blakesteele,how did you guess? Right on target.
How is this for an abandonment issue: my mom having cancer for years when I was a child & then dying when I was a teenager.
So, I guess I am a little co-dependent.


By boldly stating he has nothing else to work on and that MC is where he feels the healing and growth needs to take place he appears to be shrugging the responsibility that falls on his shoulders...in a way asking you to carry some of his own load.

Yep. I am doing all the work.
For that reason,I have made a decision this morning to quit MC. If WH wants to keep going as IC, that's his decision. I am officially starting the 180 big time today.

No12turn2----

the WS will not do anything unless they want to

agree.

thanks heartache101---

you have an unremoreseful rug sweeping spouse...
You can not allow him to not be open and talk to you.

He is definitely rug sweeping. He says he is remorseful,I am not sure. If he really were remorseful, wouldn't he take the initiative to do whatever I say I need?
Has he told his bosses what he has done? Has he told his parents?

His whole family knows, but he says that nobody at work knows except for 1 friend( I doubt that is true)


ladies_first---yes, I need more of an emotional connection, & have been saying it & saying it & saying it since we started R;
I feel trapped because I am trying to keep this family together, but if the kids were all launched, I would be out of here

sisoon posted 10/28/2013 13:15 PM

Ah, blake, we're probably on the same page, or close to it. Suppose I had said it this way....

mchercheur, Asking about my W's childhood wouldn't help me, so I don't understand why it's a topic for you. Before you ask any more about your H's FOO, figure out if it would really help you. If it would, ask; if not, ask/talk about something else.
*********************

If you still want R, consider what changes your H needs to make to become a great partner. SI has summarized a lot of that - NC, IC, MC, and especially honesty(which includes accountability for me), and transparency. I guess it all assumes that WS becomes respectful, respectable, and loving, too.

Before you institute your 180, it would probably help if you communicate what you want from your H. If he agrees to deliver, then you don't need the 180. If you've already communicated what you want and he's not delivering, then the 180 will be your friend.

There's no need to be ashamed of having abandonment or co-dependency issues. Both are pretty common, and I believe almost all of us suffer from both (and other issues, too) to some degree. You're human, you're imperfect - and you can solve a lot of problems. So, as always, be kind to yourself.

[This message edited by sisoon at 1:16 PM, October 28th (Monday)]

mchercheur posted 10/28/2013 13:40 PM

Hi Sisoon

Asking about my W's childhood wouldn't help me, so I don't understand why it's a topic for you. Before you ask any more about your H's FOO, figure out if it would really help you. If it would, ask; if not, ask/talk about something else.

For one thing, WH's mother has been an extremely destructive force in our marriage, & continues to be, & it will only get worse as she ages. WH is unable to stand up to her (for himself), & also has always been unable to stand up to her on my behalf. So, this is an ongoing problem that continues to affect our M. That is why we need to look at it. But he doesn't want to talk about it anymore.
OK, let's pretend the problem does not exist.
^^^^this is how our marriage got into trouble in the first place.
So, that is why we were talking about these issues in MC.

Before you institute your 180, it would probably help if you communicate what you want from your H. If he agrees to deliver, then you don't need the 180. If you've already communicated what you want and he's not delivering, then the 180 will be your friend.


OK, writing it out here helps clarify it in my mind.
I want my WH to really look deep down at how he got to the point of having an A, & I want him to be FORTHCOMING about it. I want him to verbalize the journey to me. I don't want to just go on with our lives as if nothing happened, or "it was just one little mistake, get over it" ( as his mother said to me.) The reason I was pushing him to look at his childhood, is because I want him to see that the coping mechanisms he learned from his mother were to sweep everything under the rug & pretend it didn't happen. That's why , when we went thru a low point in our marriage, he did not come to me & try to communicate with me about it---the minute OW threw herself on him, he went outside the marriage for a fantasy escape instead. Maybe it is intrusive for me to ask him to do this--look at when he first learned to rugsweep. I am a person who tends to dissect everything down to the tiniest detail in order to see it clearly & understand it.
I had great hopes that we could make our M better than it had ever been before.
But it's not working for me if he doesn't want to talk about anything other than the weather , what are we having for dinner, & who's picking up the kids this afternoon.
RockyMtn said:
I feel BS have to give WS the reins of their individual healing.

OK, but what if the WS doesn't want to look at anything?

[This message edited by mchercheur at 2:02 PM, October 28th (Monday)]

20WrongsVs1 posted 10/28/2013 14:46 PM

You can lead a horse to water, but you can''t make him drink. You''ve got BH all figured out, and your assessment is probably right...but when my BH tries to diagnose me I tend to get angry and defensive. I *never* thought I''d submit to head-shrinking, but a few months into IC I realize it was 20+ years overdue. ETA: but it had to be my choice, I needed to feel ready.

What do you do if he doesn''t want to change/heal, and you feel obligated to stick it out for the kids? If that''s your sitch, I am so sorry, that sounds dreadful. I hope he will wake up and *get it* before it''s too late.

[This message edited by 20WrongsVs1 at 3:20 PM, October 28th, 2013 (Monday)]

Simple posted 10/28/2013 16:47 PM

Unfortunately for WSs it is not their call in an R when the talking stops. Those are one of the ground rules. Gently and non-threateningly lead him to "water" as another person here said. If he's in real R, he will drink or at least taste it. If he's still in denial of his wrongdoing, he will run away. The main thing here is to let him know "do you really want to end up cheating again?" because he will if he doesn't figure himself out.

Hugs your way.

Card posted 10/28/2013 17:14 PM

I've watched many WS's spend an eternity looking at their foo.... And it didn't fix a single thing about their marriage and most discover it had nothing to do with the choices they made to have an A.

I knew that having an A was wrong!

I knew that coveting/stealing was wrong!

My family of origin may have been screwed up, but I still knew right from wrong!

It's really wastes time for most people to look in the rear view mirror from so long ago....

I believe waywards need to focus on current behaviors that affect their marriages and change them to line up with the goal of restoring love.

For me, If there is something one of us is doing that isn't edifying our marriage, we need to stop and discuss it so we can adjust the behavior to create a loving environment. We work to be each others greatest sources of enjoyment, rather than being a source of pain to one another.

just my .02

[This message edited by Card at 5:15 PM, October 28th (Monday)]

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