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I have been in MC since shortly after DD. MY WH has said he very much wants to R and is remorseful. I can and do find fault with his efforts to R. For example, he does not continue to apologize. And I have asked him to prepare a post-nup for when I inherit family home and he does not. he thinks helping wi e kids - and he does - is somehow a credit to his R efforts. There have been many set backs. He has sent text msgs or emails to women fRiends that I would have been okay with before but I am not any more and our MC has supported that position and tried to call him out on it. When he continued, she said he is self sabotaging our relationship and R efforts and sent him to IC about 3 weeks ago.

After that, I saw an email where he went to coffee with his secretary. I freaked. 2 of his A were with women from work. At MC, he stood his ground and said that he thinks my position is unreasonable and it is work related because he has to have good relations and it was platonic, he knows he won't cheat again, but my limits on his behavior are not reasonable or fair and he won't be controlled. The therapist told us it is time to each go to IC and she can't do anything more. She thought that the coffee was work related and maybe had there been no set backs it would be unreasonable to insist on him foregoing coffee but she understood my reaction. Bottom line is, she said we are at impasse and she sent us away.

Side note, his mom is a controlling narcissist and he reacts very strongly to being controlled.

I am so filled with anger, even 18 months out, I can't figure out if I am reasonable or not. And if I am, what do I do? Leave Him? Try to R with his insistence that he will sometimes have coffee or go to lunch w women not strictly work required? He is at a big firm and it is quite social. The OW works there but there has been NC that I know of.

I do believe he wants to be with me and I want to be with him but I just don't feel like I can forgive him and forgiving him on his terms is really painful. Or is the 180 something I should try?

[This message edited by inca at 4:53 PM, October 31st (Thursday)]

My opinion?

He doesn't get to set terms.

None. Ziltch. Nada.

You are the "clean" one. He has to prove that be deserves YOU!

Have you both read "Not JUST Friends" by Dr. Shirley Glass? I highly recommend it. Another good option for him to read is "How to help your spouse heal from your affair."

What he isn't getting is boundaries. You are establishing new, healthy boundaries in your marriage and unless and until he embraces those as healthy and NOT controlling, you are not going to reconcile.

How does he know he won't cheat again? Because when he married you he planned it? And now he doesn't? See how stupid that is? (Well, I am sure you are seeing it, but for some reason waywards deep into justification mode don't see it).

Boundaries are really a bare minimum requirement in reconciling. I'm sorry he isn't seeing it. Stay true to yourself; you know what is right here.

my limits on his behavior are not reasonable or fair and he won't be controlled.

Let me translate for you.
Its all about me and I will do what ever I damn well want and I dont care how you feel about it.

I got this exact line from WW for a LONG time after Dday.

Now I just dont give a damn. I dont trust her but I do trust ME. If she messes up I will find out about it and I trust myself to handle it and deal with it appropriately.

No, no, no. No private or personal activities with opposite sex people. Coworkers or not. No! My husband will not even have a personal conversation with women anymore. All his affairs were with coworkers.

Ugh, he is so very work.

Not "Just Friends" outlines this very well why it is very bad practice.

Who "needs" to go to coffee with their Secretary? I was one for years. None of my bosses to me to lunch or coffee. We didn't do personal crap like that. Bullshit.

Even up to now 6 years later into a successful R and stronger marriage, my FWH will NEVER be allowed to be alone with another woman that is not family (or approved by me) anywhere. Even those in facebook has to be approved by me. All this without me even reminding him of that boundaries I set. I don't have the same boundaries as him and he knows this because I didn't screw up. HE DID. and since he wants to stay in this marriage then he has to follow the new rules.

I feel for you. A truly remorseful WS will do almost anything to win you back. He doesn't sound like it. Maybe he needs to be reminded that you're not his Mom and you're not doing this to cake-eat. You're putting that boundary to keep your sanity and give your R a chance. If he doesn't comply, ENACT consequences. For any boundary my FWH failed to follow there is a set of consequences. I follow-through them and they go in different phases from 180 to emotional separation, to physical separation then all the way to divorce.

Hugs your way.

Also, I just want to say, I know plenty of men with this boundary they created for themselves and their wives even though neither one of them has ever cheated!!! I ask why - the reason: "It's not that we don't trust each other, we just don't want to place ourselves in any situation that could compromise our marriage. It only takes one small step in the wrong direction."

As many others have said, he does not "need" to have coffee alone with his secretary. He can bring her coffee, he can offer to pay for her coffee, he can go for coffee with a group. But he does not have to have a one-on-one coffee meeting with is secretary. The ONE exception would be for a once a year employee review where they need privacy to review his/her performance.

I will address the bigger question. What should you do?

It sounds as if your WS is just going thru the motions. They do not want to be "controlled". whatever Obviously they need someone to exert some control because they are unable to control themselves because otherwise they would not have had an fucking A!!

Listen, he either "gets it" or he does not. He has had 18 months to get it. I give slack to WS in the first several months after dday because even if they are trying to heal they may fall back into patterns where they do not seem to "get it". But at 18 months, he is either doing the work or rugsweeping. And it sounds like he wants to rug sweep. Hell, even your MC gave up on him!!

Right now you need to do 180 and take a step back. You need to evaluate your life and determine what you need to heal and what you are willing to put up with. It looks like he has FOO issues -- is he willing and able to work on those to be a better human being? This is not about him having lunch with a female, this is about him wanting be be real and present in a healthy relationship with you. It is also about him respecting you as a person and realizing that HE broke your trust and HE had poor boundaries and thus HE needs to prove to YOU that he is the ideal life partner for you. This is not about YOU trying to control his cheating ass. If HE is not willing and able to do that, then you need to think long and hard about the life that YOU want for the rest you your life. Do you want to have a life partnership with someone who cannot or will not address their own issue and thus is highly susceptible to repeating those mistakes? And do you want to live with a person who resists what you need to help you heal because it makes them feel "controlled"?

So my advise to to go 180 and work on healing yourself. And in the process you should really determine if he is willing and able to be the husband that you NEED. Then you will have your answer.

((((hugs))))

This is my two cents and it may speak to you or it may not. One really hard lesson I've had to learn over my marriage is that I have no real control over my WH. This is the first time infidelity has been an issue, but he's had others, like drinking.

I tried to get him to therapy. I tried to limit his drinking. I tried to put on strong limitations. NONE of it worked. I mean, sure, maybe it did now and then, but for the most part I was left scrambling, he was left annoyed and neither of us were happy. Plus, the initial reasons for his behaviour were not dealt with so he didn't change. Eventually he did stop the excessive drinking but eventually it just got channeled into this.

I was simply burning myself out before playing the goalie. I'd police what he drank and how much of it he drank. That meant that every time he went out or we were at a social gathering a large chunk of my attention/stress/energy went to policing rather than enjoying myself. I set precise boundaries (4 beer limit, no hard alcohol) that I had to chase to prove when he swept over that boundary. It. Was. Exhausting. More so it didn't work.

This was the wake up call I needed to really 'get' that my outward 'control' of him wasn't going to work. So this time I've left it up to him to set his own behaviour to meet my expectations. I made conditions and set boundaries, sure, but I'm not setting the limits on them. For example, I said that he had to go to IC. It was up to him to decide how, where and who he was going to see. I said that I expected him to be kind and to be honest - he is the one who has defined that by being more attentive to me, more sympathetic and helpful with my multiple health issues, help me more with the kids and to show me or read out any texts or other conversations he's having with people.

Now I don't have to chase him. I don't know if we can fully R or if he will screw up. If he screws up I've set consequences that I will follow (divorce) and he knows that I'm committed to that. Maybe this won't work. If it doesn't I'll know that it never would have, even had I spent the time chasing after him to make sure he 'behaved'. We'll cross that bridge if we get to it. At least this way it is very clear cut that he's the one having to make those choices rather than me 'failing' at being his mom/parole officer.

Thank you all for your feedback. It is very helpful.