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Kneecapped posted 11/2/2013 21:48 PM

Well, here goes. I’ve been lurking here for a few weeks but this is my first post. This forum has been an enormous help already. It boggles my mind to see so much pain and then to see a pouring of support and love from the members makes me hopeful.

It’s been a little less than a month since DDay. My WW and I have been together for over 5 years and married for 3 with no children. My WW has been in an EA for approximately 8 months and a PA for about 5 months with one of her co-workers. After reading “Not, Just Friends” recently, it was as if I was reading a biography. My WW works in a male dominated field with a work-hard, play-hard mentality – and there is a fair amount of work related travel to boot. My WW’s AP was dealing with his own marriage problems since his wife was in an affair with one of her co-workers. Approximately 10 months ago while on a business trip, the AP broke down to my WW and she became his shoulder to cry on. Since then, it’s been the standard progression that I read about daily on this forum. Text messages, drinks after work and more business trips. I started becoming suspicious about a month prior to DDay and confronted her. She was getting way too many text messages entirely too late at night. I picked up her phone that night when she was in the shower and something just wasn’t right. None of the texts looked problematic individually but they were all just a little too personal. This is when she hit me with the first straight-up lie. She said that he was her “best friend” at work. In hindsight, I knew it was bullshit. Who has a “best friend” that you never talk about? Nobody!

Fast forward to a month ago. The signs were starting to become glaring and I finally got the courage to confront her again. I confronted her after a night out with friends when she was supposed to meet me and finally showed up 2-3 hours late. She admitted to kissing him and said that she told him she loved him. That was the day my world was burned to the ground. For the next 2 days it was an emotionally raw train wreck with TT that finally revealed what I know as of today. Emotional addiction, unprotected sex – the whole 9 yards. FML! To be in your mid-thirties, married and need a STD test… UNBELIEVABLE! This has been exponentially the worst roller-coaster ride of my life. Since, she agreed to NC and has done a decent job to my knowledge considering she still works with her AP. We’ve seen a MC a few times but I think I’m done with it unless we find a new C. Our current MC wants to put way more blame towards me than I can accept. I gladly accept my part of any dysfunction or communication problems, but we had a happy loving marriage for the most part. I’ve been supportive of my WW through our first home purchase and remodel; two job changes, a move and a couple of deaths in the family. I own my part! My only regret is that my WW is an emotional bottler and I was never able to get her to express her feelings openly and freely with me. She never wanted to talk about the “state of the union” or said she was ever unhappy about anything.

So, over this past month we’ve been working toward R. She’s maintained NC but there has been zero remorse, empathy or emotional support. It has been maddening! I know she is still deep in the “fog”, but it’s almost impossible for me to understand. It would be a little easier if her AP was Brad Pitt, but the AP isn’t even in the same zip code. She talks of being addicted to him and that she’s not choosing between the two of us, she’s just not sure is she can still be married at all. She has now cheated on all 3 of her LT relationships – she ruined the relationship with her college BF by having a ONS, and I was the reason she broke-up with the guy she dated before me. That relationship was a LD relationship that I thought was over when we started dating. It turns out that she broke-up with him the day after our first date. I should probably call him and congratulate him. She also says that she’s worried that she was remorseful and went back groveling immediately after the ONS while with her college BF but she’s conflicted now with me. Will someone please hit me with a 2x4, am I pathetic or what?

So 2 days ago I forward the article “Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse – A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners” because it closely represents how I’m feeling. I also asked her out on a date night so we could ATTEMPT to bond without our emotions running so high. When I got home from work she was reading the article and sobbing. She said that she didn’t understand why I was even trying to R since she couldn’t support me like she knows that I need. She said that she has been feeling all of the painful emotions that she read a BS is supposed to feel. As she was talking a switch flipped in my head – I got pissed! I summarized our whole situation as I see it. I told her that when she starting feeling close to the AP he was in the same hell I am now. If he was half as messed up as I am then he didn’t know which way was up. He found comfort from the only woman that he works with. I’m sure he enjoyed the attention and compassion and I’m sure it felt like well-deserved revenge for him. I told her that I also recently called the AP’s wife to confirm that she knew about the A and that she was very apologetic about starting this whole “chain reaction”. The AP’s wife made it sound like they were working things out and I told her that my WW’s affair wasn’t her fault because people make their own choices. My WW started sobbing and said, “it sounds like their marriage is going to work-out and I guess I look like the fool”. I promptly left the room while saying, “I’m the fool, because I didn’t do anything wrong”. After a short walk and some reflection, I decided it was time for her to pack her shit and leave. I told her to leave and that she could possibly come back when she stopped feeling sorry for herself.

If you are still reading, thanks for hanging in here with me. This is where the wheels fall off and I don’t know what to think or do. Crazily, I still love her. I’m sitting here at home surrounded by pictures and fond memories that quickly fade when all of the lies and gruesome details creep into my head. I don’t know if I’m past the point of no return for R. I know her “fog” is very thick so I don’t know how long I can wait for her or if I could ever cope with knowing that my WW has such a broken moral compass – or that she would do it again. I’m also conflicted because it would be a little gratifying going the “scorched earth” route by outing the A and ruining both of their careers. I would feel justified and I think I would have a clear conscience doing it. Any advice or feedback would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again for reading.

painfulpast posted 11/2/2013 22:39 PM

Hi Kneecapped. Sorry you find yourself here. Your wife has been betraying you for quite a while. And now, she wants you to sit around feeling bad for her? Did she actually say she feels like a BS, or was that a type? If so, why is she a BS? Because he went back to his marriage?

You did the right thing. You don't need that around you when you are the one that is hurting and was betrayed. You need compassion, or at least silence. You don't need her calling herself a 'fool' because her boyfriend went back to his cheating wife. How selfish!!

Box the pictures up. Move the furniture to give the room a new feel - a feel that doesn't involve her - and start the 180. If you've been reading here, you know about that.

We all still loved our spouses on DDay. That's what makes it so damned hard. We love the person that hurt us so deeply. How do you reconcile that in yourself? How do you not get angry at yourself for loving someone that could hurt you like that? Well, love isn't a faucet you can turn on and off. It is a feeling that grows slowly over time, and dies the same way, if it dies. You aren't strange for still loving her. You're normal. If a person could fall out of love because of one thing, or two, or three even, this site would not exist. A betrayal would happen, love would vanish, and then the WS would vanish. Poof - all gone. That isn't how love, or life, works.

Start the 180. Relax. Sleep. Do things for YOU. This site is always here if you need to vent, or you need someone to lean on, or you just need a distraction.

Hatingthis247 posted 11/2/2013 23:23 PM

You have come to the right place. I’m a little over 2 months from dday and getting your thoughts and feelings out, and receiving advice and support here has been the best thing for me. It’s terrible that we are here, but it’s truly amazing how we support each other once we are.

My WS really screwed up our initial attempt at R. She showed no remorse and no noticeable eagerness to understand what she did, why she did it, how it will affect the others involved, and how to make sure it will never happen again. Our MC told me to draw a line and stick to it. I remember when I heard that I already felt like my line had been crossed and redrawn several times. The full truth of everything my WS had done came out bit by bit and always by me digging it up or finding out in some other way than her being honest about it. I suggest you draw your line ASAP and convince yourself that you must stick to it.

If you haven’t already read up on the 180 in the BS FAQ and also find other articles (some in this forum) that break it down in different ways. I’ve read and re-read that information many times. I even keep the page up on one tab of my smartphones browser for quick glances to reinforce what I need to do. At first I feared the 180. To me it seemed like I was pushing her away and ruining our chance at R. A great piece of advice I received from a member of SI (thank you ButterflyGirl) was that you don’t want to R with your WS right now. She has issues that need to be understood and accepted BY HER so that she can fix them. Then and only then, when she has shown true signs of change, should you consider R. You don’t want to sweep this under the rug and be right back here again after another several years or marriage.

I’ve been in full 180 mode for a while now and have seen more of an honest reaction from my WS than I ever did sending her articles to read and even from going to MC. It’s really hitting her hard knowing what she stands to lose because of her actions, and that’s what we want. I have no idea if my WS and I will ever R. I do still have hope, but it depends entirely on what she does now to show me she’s changed. Until then I’m not sitting around waiting on her because if she doesn’t change, I don’t want to R just to be hurt again.

Uhtred posted 11/2/2013 23:35 PM

My heart goes out to you brother. This is the worst and best place to be. You'll learn more from people here than you will in years from a marriage counselor.

I'm six months out and still feeling tremors of the after effect of my wife's selfish bullshit.

Struggling3005 posted 11/3/2013 00:49 AM

I'm so sorry you're here. I don't have much advice, considering my DDay wasn't even 2 months ago and I'm still not sure how I get out of bed every day and function. I just wanted to say you are NOT to blame and you are NOT dumb. At all. She did you you wrong here, not the other way around.

Nailinmyforehead posted 11/3/2013 05:46 AM

Kneecapped, this is one crappy ass road that no one who stood before God and man and took a vow ever expected to travel, but it is where we are. At almost a year out, I am telling you- it gets better. Focus on you right now. Period. Focus and do the 180. You are now at a point where you have to be willing to lose the marriage to save it. Trust me. We were married 17 years, 4 kids. I can truly say it wasn't until I got to that point that perspective and SOME sort of sanity and relief returned.

Kneecapped posted 11/3/2013 07:37 AM

Thanks for all of the posts. I felt before that I was becoming some sort of an expert on infidelity because I've had such an insatiable appetite to learn WHY - that I've been reading everything I can get my hands on. I've been through the Healing Library a couple of times. Now, I realize that I don't think I see the forest for the trees. I went back and re-read the 180 and I see now that I haven't been doing a very good job at all. I'm taking your technique hatingthis247, and I'm going to tab the 180 on my phone. Hopefully then I'll be able to 'get it' through my thick skull.

Painfulpast, my WW didn't say she felt like a BS, she said that she was feeling some of the same emotions only a BS should feel. I never got the WHY, she goes in her turtle shell and shuts down. It's really frustrating when you can't have the anwers you need. She's had those tendencies since we were married, so it's a little relief knowing that it's not some NEW way to hide from the truth. Thanks for the idea of taking down the pictures. I took every wedding/honeymoon picture down and it was surprisingly very satisfying! The furniture will be rearranged today.

I'm supposed to meet up with the AP later today. I'm over any temptation to smash his face in (even though it would be fun and easy) and I'm not that kind of person anyway. I really just want to get as many answers as I can. Unfortunately for him, he knows that if I out the A to his boss his career will take a severe hit - so I'm pretty sure he's going to be fairly motivated to answer everything. I guess it's blackmail but I'm not feeling guilty about it so far. Does anyone have any advice? I've tried to think of what to say and think about the pros/cons, but everything is so new... I'm not sure what to expect.

jb3199 posted 11/3/2013 08:17 AM

If you are going to meet the AP with the CERTAINTY that you can keep yourself in check(you are a better man than me, my friend), then you have to treat this as an emotionless data-gathering mission. You also need to keep in mind that he will more than likely be in CYA(cover your ass) mode---so take everything he says with a grain of salt.

Try to determine a timeline of the affair. How detailed is entirely up to what you feel that you need to know. Personally, I wouldn't want to ask too deep of details from someone who I have no emotional investment with. Try to get dates and times, if for no other reason, to compare them to your WW's version.

As for your WW, all of this work that you are putting in is worthless, unless she is willing to put in a lot of effort on herself. Her problems go way back...probably to childhood...and until she is willing to emotionally expose herself, she is not a safe partner to stay with. She has shown you who she is---a serial cheater, with a pattern of running away from herself. Believe her. She has shown you nothing else to this point.

We all still loved our spouses on DDay. That's what makes it so damned hard. We love the person that hurt us so deeply. How do you reconcile that in yourself? How do you not get angry at yourself for loving someone that could hurt you like that? Well, love isn't a faucet you can turn on and off. It is a feeling that grows slowly over time, and dies the same way, if it dies. You aren't strange for still loving her. You're normal. If a person could fall out of love because of one thing, or two, or three even, this site would not exist. A betrayal would happen, love would vanish, and then the WS would vanish. Poof - all gone. That isn't how love, or life, works.

Can't say it any better than that. It doesn't make it easy, but it is still the truth. What you need to understand and accept is that although this is unfair to the Nth degree, you are nonetheless here, and need to work through this mess. But you can only work on yourself, as you can't fix her. That is her job. She has to find out the "whys", and until she does, you should be heading in the opposite direction.

Focus on yourself, practice the 180, and learn how to emotionally detach from your WW. Believe me, if this drives her away, she was never going to fight for you. Is that who you want to love and support for the rest of your life?

As you keep the focus on yourself, and break out of your own fog, you will see things in a very different light. This site is called Surviving Infidelity, and that is exactly what it can and will do---if you put in the effort.

[This message edited by jb3199 at 8:19 AM, November 3rd (Sunday)]

painfulpast posted 11/3/2013 08:19 AM

Well, meeting or speaking to the AP is never really a great idea - if they're willing to be the AP, they'll lie too. He's had his share of heartache, and he was a mental mess when this happened, so maybe you'll do better.

Still, I'd be very clinical at first. Dates, people involved, etc. Just to see how honest he'll be. Remember, if you can ruin his career, he's also motivated to let you believe it was as innocent as it possibly could be.

Ask how it started, but don't be surprised if he says she started it. Although, given the circumstances, that wouldn't surprise me. Not many BSs go after people. Do you want to go hit on someone?

Glad taking down the pictures helped. :)

Nailinmyforehead posted 11/3/2013 09:00 AM

Record the meeting with the AP. No matter how hard you try- you won't remember all the info. Record it so you can refer to it. Just a suggestion.

coldshot posted 11/3/2013 09:20 AM

Sorry you are here Kneecapped but it is a good place to be under the circumstances. I am 3 months out from DDay, and suffered through everything you are... the WHY of the betrayal is the worst, and unanswerable. The best thing I did was detach from my WW, and stay out of her head. You can't figure out what she doesn't understand herself. I too dealt with a cold remorseless woman who was once the person I loved more than anyone. Now it is sometimes looking into the eyes of a dead fish. F'ed up for sure. We are done.
Meeting with the AP sounds a little dangerous (probably for him), and even an emotional outburst from you let alone something physical could have repercussions that would hurt you legally. THINK STRATEGICALLY! Doing this is a bitch when your world has been destroyed, but if you start to put yourself first you will manage the pain better, and heal faster.
You probably won't learn a thing from him, but if it is legal in your state I too would record the encounter.
Eat enough, hydrate, consult a lawyer asap even if you attempting to R.
Take care brother.

hurtsobadinside posted 11/3/2013 09:40 AM


I met with my WW's AP, (i knew him thru my WW) but didnt shake his hand and didnt say one word to him during that meeeting.

I had an atty. contact him and give him "an offer he couldnt refuse". At the time this offer was made AP was in full R with his faithful wife and told her everything.HIs FS and I talked frequently and compared notes. His FS was given some of the emails WH had sent my WW but she told me she didnt want everything. so I respected that.

The "offer he couldnt resuse" was to Come in for a legal deposition on the Affair details (paid for at his expense) and in exchange, I would not show his wife and two sons all of his emails to my wife (i did give his Faithful wife some of them) and the hours upon hours of phone conversations he had with my WW. Where he bashed his wife.
(all recorded in WW's car with bluetooth on a VAR)..all very clear recordings thanks to bluetooth and 12 speakers in the car

All my atty. had to do was play one sound bite for him which was his good morning greeting to my wife every day...and it was "Good Morning Gorgeous....smoochie smoochie smoochie.....and then he puckered his lips and would make a kissing sound..for about 10 seconds...

When my atty. played that single recorded sound-bite for him and asked what does he think his wife and 2 sons would think if they heard this and the other hours upon hours of recorded conversations where he bashes his wife. He knew it was check-mate

I offered that the emails his wife had not already seen and the recorded conversations I had on flashdrives would never see the light of day for his family if he came in for a legal deposition and under oath gave all timeline information and answer any question i had in exchange for my agreement to bury this from his family.

This was an agreeemnt between 2 parties where mutual consideration would be given.

This coward's legs folded like a cheap card-table.
He through my wife under the bus... gave dates of hookups showed his charge card statements, gave me the cards my WW had given him. He told everything including the hotels my wife paid for and vacations to vegas and southbeach she paid for...etc

I also attended his deposition (i was allowed to attend..i didnt shake his hand or say one word to him and wore mirrored aviator sun-glasses the entire he couldnt see my eyes. I wanted to create the most stressful situation I could think of.

When he answered a question, occasionally, I would write feverishly on a yellow legal note pad and slide it to my atty. (AP never knew what i was writing but was very stressed when i did that ..his stress was very visual in his body language and voice changes.

Sometimes i wrote nonsense...i did that becasue i knew it created great stress for him..and truly enjoyed being in the driver's seat on this.

So where am i at today, I have a full timeline, details etc in a 1300 page legal deposition and all the emails and flashdrives with recorded conversations in a safety deposit box.

Part of the legal agreement we hade was if my wife contacted him he would hang up and advise me immeidately or the agreement was voided and i had the freedom to give everything to his wife and sons. If he contacted my wife, the agreement was voided and i also had the freedom then to give everything to his wife and 2 sons.

I know today neither of them ever thought of the devistaion this would bring to their careers and families.
AP and my WW worked for fierce competitor nationwide insurance companies at executive levels. Both would lose their jobs and have great difficulty finding new employment if I contacted their commpanies.

I wish you luck in your conversation with this low-life and also send you great strength to get thru this extremely difficult roller-coaster ride you had no vote on.

me: 58
her WW- 57
7 yr LTA (PA & EA-maybe 10yrs?) with her former boss
one d-24 yrs old- former eating disorder now OCB
married 25 yrs
in "R"
and its been roller-coaster
D-day 3-13-12
confronted 6 wks later
Fog, denials, blame shifting, rub sweeping, TT you name it and she did it but things are finally getting better very slowly
its a long road....and painful

edited for adding my history at bottom

[This message edited by hurtsobadinside at 9:47 AM, November 3rd (Sunday)]

still-living posted 11/3/2013 11:58 AM

Sorry you are going through this. Kneecap, if you must meet with this AP, hold your meeting in a semi-public setting so you can hold yourself in check, like a public parking lot. Also record your meeting using a VAR. Also, think about his motives for meeting with you, -they are likely only to smooth things over with you and to protect himself, so plan and expect that he will lie to you.

painfulpast posted 11/3/2013 12:20 PM

hurtsobadinside - thank you for sharing that. I loved reading every last word of it!! You sir, are an evil genius. I LOVE IT!!!

Kneecapped posted 11/3/2013 13:57 PM

Wow... Amazing advice. Thank you all. I just got home from work and I'm headed out soon for my meeting with the AP. I've taken everything onboard and I think I'm ready to make it happen. I'll post what I find out. Thanks again for taking time out of your day to give me strength!

Truly posted 11/3/2013 14:12 PM

Kia kaha, KC.

Kneecapped posted 11/3/2013 22:41 PM

Well, I met with the AP for about an hour tonight at a very low key bar. It was extremely unsatisfying. I guess I didn't really know what to expect - maybe I was hoping that he would throw my WW under the bus. Who knows? I did record everything, but I didn't really learn anything new. His story matched up with my WWs. Maybe it was rehearsed. I doubt it. I don't think it could've gotten much worse anyway. EA/PA, and that she loves him. It makes me F-ing crazy because all I want to scream is SERIOUSLY... joking at work, drinks after work, business trips, flirting! That's LOVE, are you F-ING stupid or what?

The AP said that he is fully committed to R with his own W. He said he is going to do everything possible to maintain NC with my WW. Of course he also apologized profusely. I actually believe he'll keep NC because between me and his W, he knows his career is over if anything else happens. The thing that kills me is that he said he also loves my WW. I asked him since he loved her why shouldn't they run off together. He said he loves his wife and they are working to repair their M and that he and my WW could never be together. It absolutely DISGUSTS me that there is some romanticized bullshit in their heads. I don't know how I'll ever be able to deal with it. It's driving me NUTS!

I allowed my WW to return home from a hotel. She's back in the guest room. She wrote an apology letter. She said she wants to keep going to MC. She initiated a conversation about the A and read some of HER "issues" from her journal. I think she is sincerely putting in effort but I know there is a loooong way to go. I'm not ready to give up yet. I guess I need to keep working on the 180? Meanwhile, does anyone have any advice to help deal with my new reality?? (Sex, lies, "love")

DefeatedDad posted 11/4/2013 00:13 AM

Kneecapped, come over to the Betrayed Mens section of the "I Can Relate" forum. There are alot of realy cool guys there going through the exact same turmoil you are experiencing. It's a great place to vent your frustrations and lay out your feelings.

[This message edited by DefeatedDad at 12:14 AM, November 4th (Monday)]

still-living posted 11/4/2013 01:14 AM

She has now cheated on all 3 of her LT relationships

She goes in her turtle shell and shuts down.

I highly suspect FOO issues. I recommend that you insist she attends IC as part of your stipulation for recovery. If you do not see progress within the first three months of her attending IC, try another IC, and then another. Not all ICs are good, and not all ICs are best for your wife.

Likely, the sad truth is your wife and the MOM are still in a limerence fog and their only motive right now is to smooth things over until they can regroup and figure out how to continue their affair. Through your persistence however, through time working with IC, and while maintaining NC, you can hope to see small positive changes in your wife's behavior, -changes where the only motive is from her wanting to do the right thing and wanting be a good person without you having to demand or suggest it. With time, and working with a good IC, you can hope that she can come to understand that the way she was brought up as a child and how she deals with problems in her life is NOT right, and is NOT the way she should be wanting to carry out her life.

If you can afford it, insist she find another job. This can accelerate your recovery if there will be one.

Good luck brother. SI is a great place to learn your options for dealing with an affair. Not everyone's advise will be correct or best for you. You will need learn options and figure out what his best for you.

stronger08 posted 11/4/2013 02:43 AM

Bro, Bravo to you for having the Cajones to toss her ass out. Its just a fact that you can not R with an unremorseful WS. I'm a bit concerned that you allowed her back in such a short period of time. Her reentry into the home and your life should not have been that simple. You should have made her earn her way back in. The biggest newbie BS mistake is that we think we can love them back into the M. That's just our insecurities wanting things to go back to how they were before the A. But the sad truth is that things can not and will not ever be the same. And until she has true remorse for what she has done any attempt at R is a waste of your time. What happened in your situation is very typical. Especially when the WS is the wife. She gets caught up in the fantasy life, starts to believe all the bullshit that she and the AP tell each other. Its all unicorns and rainbows in affair land until the A is exposed. Then reality sets in and people get hurt. Naturally her AP runs home tail between his legs and tosses her under a bus. Now she has to deal with the fallout of her behaviors. Her first instinct is to talk herself into believing that what she had with the OM was true love. Its much more common for female WS to have an emotional attachment to the AP. Men tend to be able to cheat purely on a sexual level. When the shit hits the fan the male AP usually bails very quickly. The female on the other hand holds onto that emotional bond. Sex for her is the price she paid for the attention and validation the OM gave her. She knows deep down that she was used and tossed aside. But she cant accept that reality. Therefore her resistance to show true remorse. Because if she did she would have to admit she was nothing more then a piece of ass who acted like a slut for nothing.

Ultimately if you don't instill consequences for what she has done chances are it will happen again. Don't let her give you that poor pitiful me bullshit. Her behavior is nothing more than that of a teenage girl who has been scorned. What she perceived as love was nothing more than fluff and fantasy. True love does not need to hide in shadows. True love does not sneak around and hide behind lies and deception. She fell for the oldest trick in the book. She rolled the dice and crapped out. Your biggest mistake would be to come to her rescue and allow her to walk away from what she did unscathed. R is a gift given from a BS to a WS. There is nothing written in stone that says you must give this gift. Surely before she allowed another man into her the thought of losing you crossed her mind. And she took that risk anyhow. Now you must force her to live with that decision and the consequences that come with it. I understand that you love her. Shit, I made the same mistake as you have. But if I had to do it all again I certainly would have taken a more firm approach with my XWW. I had to learn the hard way that my love for her would not have fixed anything. She had to do that herself and all I did was get in the way. I allowed her to justify and blame me for her A. And a few moths of false R later I found out that NC was broken. Thus ending my M for good. I would strongly suggest you instill some strong demands for R and even stronger consequences should those demands are not met.

The bottom line here is that she must earn her way back into the M. Not in her words of verbal promises. But in tangible action. And her first action must be honest and sincere remorse. Without that your M can never heal. I honestly believe that people have the capacity for change. But do they have the want and desire to take a hard look at themselves and ask the hard question ? R is not for the weak hearted. It takes 2 totally committed people busting their asses off to fix what is broken. One person can not carry that burden alone. But before that even starts the WS must find remorse and seek the answer to why they thought an A was the way to go. People can learn from their mistakes. But first they must be admitted and understood. Without her understanding why she acted the way she did any attempt at R is futile. Good luck brother.

[This message edited by stronger08 at 2:44 AM, November 4th (Monday)]

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