"You can survive this. Talk to others that have"

blakesteele posted 11/8/2013 19:28 PM

I just spent 40 minutes asking my wife specific questions about what my wife was feeling during her A. What where you thinking when you first saw his cock? Think maybe I'll just use my hand? Then mouth? Then......

I have asked this questions tens of times over the past year. Answers don't change anymore. What her A was is text-book stuff.....and I have read 17-20 books on the topic.

Why do I do this???? No real trigger was involved.....I seemed a little more sad going under the overpass that leads out to their love shack..(go under it going to and from work)... But not anger or rage....was happy to be coming home from work, it's Friday, my wife and I have a kid-free weekend excursion planned....two nights in a hotel, just us.

My gut is fine.

Has my mind been warped by viewing porn? Something I had done for decades (wife knew). Enjoyed it, but now hate it's affects on intimacy. Is my mind so damaged that I will not grow through this seemingly "growth less" pattern I appear to be developing with this line of questioning? Am I subconsciously sabotaging intimacy with my wife?

I am no longer in counseling.....thought 12 months and $4k was enough to fly on my own....maybe not?

God help us all.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 7:39 PM, November 8th (Friday)]

blakesteele posted 11/8/2013 19:32 PM

I even had a great response from my Board of directors this week....got a green light in a multimillion dollar, 3 year project.

I am frustrated with myself.

Might be nothing more then a pity party....but why would I do this?!?!? Like we don't have enough happiness draining things in our M.....why do I choose to be another source tonight?

Anyone got some insight for me? 2x4's....bricks.......WS.....BS.....all welcomed.

Peace to us all.

GraceisGood posted 11/8/2013 19:40 PM

I don't know why YOU do this, but the textbook answer is that people who have been tramatized need to revisit the topic, re-tell the story, over and over again, until they don't anymore.

Are you approx one year out or two? If one then this is to be expected imo. Nothing wrong, just par for the course. If two, I would still not see anything wrong with it, but could understand why you might be getting ready to move on a little bit in this area as you might be ready to (might)

we are all different. I don't think I have asked hardly any questions more than once, and definitely not more than twice. I figure why bother - shrug-. But I do wonder if it might not be better for me to have asked over and over again to process better, I wonder if I have missed something along the way that might come back to bite me ya know.

Grace

blakesteele posted 11/8/2013 19:45 PM

Thanks grace....14 months since DD.... 3 months of TTing and an extended fog period. I'd say new pain stopped about 7-8 months ago.

ionlytalkedtoher posted 11/8/2013 19:49 PM

because you hurt.

ok--so you hurt...if all these good things happened today and you have a great weekend planned, can you say to yourself--I hurt--but I want to be happy now. can you chose happiness for today? can you symbolically pack the hurt away when you pack a bag a bag for a happy weekend?

karmahappens posted 11/8/2013 19:49 PM

Hey Blake

I cannot compare you to my sitch, but sit on something will you.

Like we don't have enough happiness draining things in our M.....why do I choose to be another source tonight?

Let it roll around in your head for a bit, see what you come up with.

No preconceived notions, just a hmmm for me.

somanyyears posted 11/8/2013 20:23 PM

..as triggery as this topic is for me, i'm going to throw this in..

..if i'm wrong then i'm wrong..

What where you thinking when you first saw his cock? Think maybe I'll just use my hand? Then mouth? Then......

..are we not, as a culture, pre-occupied, fascinated and interested in the genitals of the opposite sex, or in some cases, of the same sex??

..getting up close and personal with the OM's genitals is the whole point of a PA and doing what she did seems par for the course in so many of the stories we read here..

..it was the same for my gf/wife.. at 18, she had the OM take her hand and put it on his junk in his Mustang, in the parking lot at university.

..he got her to go down on him and once she found out that she could make him cum, it became a fun activity that gave her power and a boost to her ego.

..he told her how fantastic she made him feel and that it was so special and on and on..

..there was no luuurrvvee going on, it was all ego stroking and sucking and cumming and all their deep dirty secret..

..once established that whole year at school, it resumed after our marriage..for years.. she became his suck-buddy.. he got off and she got off on his compliments.. his junk became the focus of her interest.. no kissing, no fucking ..just lunch and then the sucking..

..so.. that's what my gf/wife was thinking.. it may be simply the same for your wife.. they found the OM's cock "interesting'!!!

..she told me it was a little bit thicker than mine but 2 inches shorter!!

..he's dead now and so his cock doesn't exist anymore!

smy

[This message edited by somanyyears at 8:25 PM, November 8th (Friday)]

TheClimb posted 11/8/2013 20:24 PM

I didn't ask too many questions about sex, just didn't really want to go there but I understand the need to ask questions. You are still trying to understand something that will never, ever make sense.

About a year ago, FWH acted a little hurt that the OW had replaced him so quickly. This really pissed me off. I had been trying to get him to see that she wasn't the poor, innocent widow just needing to be loved. These are the questions I ask over and over again, trying to get him to see her as she really is. Then, just like you two, our evening is ruined. I am guessing that neither you nor I am getting the answer we want.

So, I come here instead. I post my questions, my anger and my hurt to the only people who truly understand. You are still new to this Blake, I am coming up on five years and it took me until year four to stop feeling the need to question how he sees her. I guess you get to the point when you feel like you have heard it all . You still don't understand it or agree with it, you just accept that it happened.

It's not too late to enjoy your weekend....

HardenMyHeart posted 11/8/2013 20:29 PM

Why do I do this???? No real trigger was involved

Because you still can't understand what was going on in her head and why she would do that. It's pretty normal. Please don't be hard on yourself.

What where you thinking when you first saw his cock?

She was probably both nervous and excited and was most likely fantasizing what sex would be like. I doubt very much she was thinking of you or the pain it would cause. If you think about it, starting a PA is a very selfish act. If the WS really gave a lot of thought to their BS, the PA may have never got started in the first place.

Not to make light of things, but I will always remember what my FWW said when I asked her what she was thinking when she saw OM's cock for the first time. Her response: "I never knew they could be that small." Since I had seen nude pictures of OM, I knew she was telling the truth. As angry as I was at the time, I couldn't help but start cracking up when she said that.

[This message edited by HardenMyHeart at 8:32 PM, November 8th (Friday)]

LA44 posted 11/9/2013 07:07 AM

Blake, I don't think there is anything wrong w you. There will never be an answer that makes sense. Last night I was helping my youngest son draw a line from a word, like Mister to its abbrev form, Mr. And then, Senior to Sr. Easy right? We will never be able to draw an easy line like that. Never be able to "connect the dots" and go, "ok! Yes! Its all clear now".

I hope you and your wife have a romantic, sexy, "raunch" filled, heartfelt time away. Have it all! And stay in the moment my friend

LA

1owner posted 11/9/2013 07:15 AM

Hi Blake,

I asked a my W a lot of questions as well. But the best for me came from my counselor when he told me that for men, the sex acts is what we focus on, whereas women tend to focus on the emotional side more.

My wife and I were each other's firsts, she is still my only. My counselor helped me understand that I wanted to know about the sex acts because I wanted to know what she and I had that was still totally ours, what was ours that had not been shared with or tainted by anyone else.

I'm around 4 months from Dday, and yeah man, that shit still hurts.

cantaccept posted 11/9/2013 07:33 AM

(((blake)))

There is absolutely nothing wrong with you!

I really believe it is just all a part of this roller coaster. Two forward and sometimes four back.

It is hard to gain acceptance of this. The reality hits so hard sometimes. You start to believe that you have resolved some issue in your head, you are done with that, cross it off the list and then bam there you are with it spinning in your head again.

Please be kind to yourself. I really believe it's just a normal reaction to a deep pain. Time, with the work you are doing, and I hear in your words how very hard you are working, your healing will come.

I feel your criticism of yourself, I do the same. You are good, you are doing nothing wrong and even if you were, that is okay too. We couldn't possibly get this perfectly right, we are human, it is so complicated.

I wish you peace this weekend.

I wish you some fun!!!

FightingBack posted 11/9/2013 09:39 AM

The first 2 years or so of my H's affair was ego stroking and blow jobs. I asked him why OW would be content by just satisfying him and getting little sexual satisfaction in return.

He wasn't sure of the answer but suggested "I thought she just liked me"

Ah.....no.

I had an occasion to ask her also, and added, "didn't that make you feel a bit used?"

Her response. "yes, in a way. Part of me was happy to do it and the other part of me felt sad."

My take is that she used this act to gain POWER. Power over him, the situation, and to make herself feel desired, wanted, special, and in control.

rachelc posted 11/9/2013 10:15 AM

people who have been tramatized need to revisit the topic, re-tell the story, over and over again, until they don't anymore.

and look at it from all angles so it isn't as scary anymore...

you're perfectly normal, Blake. Hurt, but normal.

good thoughts to you!

SoVerySadNow posted 11/9/2013 11:29 AM

textbook answer is that people who have been tramatized need to revisit the topic, re-tell the story, over and over again, until they don't anymore

I believe this is true. It's true for me, anyway.
Your d-day is a few days after mine. It was a hell of a month, eh? Six months later I had some new information given to me- more specifics, painful stuff. WH had a bit of fog as well. General fog. So, our stories are not very different. I feel so many of the same things you are talking about. Good times are tainted by the crap.

Triggers are odd things. Finally10 asked me to list my triggers at one point. I guess he figured he could help, or avoid, or be prepared? (I've had an extended anger/rage phase. He has asked that I be more respectful, and handle this better. Every BS here just spewed whatever they are drinking through their noses, I imagine.)

Like you, I have no particular thing to point to as to why my mind goes where it goes, and I suddenly go back to WH and ask the same questions over and over again. I come in from different angles, different temperaments, techniques. He says he doesn't know or doesn't remember. Now that I have a descriptive form of written timeline from him, he refers me back to that and says, "everything I can remember is written there". He has nothing more to offer.

I've explained to WH that triggers are like swimming in a pool full of floating plastic balls. As you swim among them, you touch one, and it sparks a trigger or question. Then that ball touches another and therefore touches you- more triggers, etc. Every ball touched sparks something and swimming through them is exhausting. You cannot avoid the balls- they touch you again and again. It seems like we can't resolve these things that have happened to us. I can't resolve that Finally10 discarded me and our family by infidelity and lying. Each day something in particular comes to the forefront to torture me anew. Some vague trigger touched me?

You are in your second year- the dreaded second year. It's real- what your W did. She knew stuff that you didn't know. You want to eliminate that gap and be together as one without interference again.

I hate this. I hate what my WH brought into our M, and the fact that the number of new members at the top of this forum grows daily, representing horrible pain to another one of us.

And God be with you too, Blake.

sisoon posted 11/9/2013 11:36 AM

I haven't read through this thread, but I want to add that I did this sort of thing, too.

I concluded the reason for doing this is that the facts are so horrendous that the answer don't really get integrated until they're repeated a number of times. So I asked again and again until I no longer felt like asking any more.

Sorry, blake, nothing wrong with you - seems normal to me.

Undone1 posted 11/9/2013 15:37 PM

Blakesteele,

I like to think of myself as a strong and rational person, however, dealing with the betrayal has caused me to think otherwise. I think that we under-estimate the depth of the trauma that we experience. This week I had a really great session with my IC and realized that my ruminating and obsessive thinking was unproductive and I really needed to allow myself not to get distracted with asking the same questions over and over (that I know the answers to) but to feel the PAIN...experience the grief of the betrayal and trauma.

In thinking about it differently, I looked up information about PTSD and effectively dealing with trauma. Julie Gottman, clinical psychologist and the co-founder and clinical director of the Gottman Institute says:

When secrets emerge... the partner suffers profoundly. Post-traumatic stress disorder is the result — being battered by unwanted intrusive thoughts about the betrayal, nightmares, emotional numbing coupled with unpredictable explosions, sleep disturbances and hyper-vigilance as the partner or spouse searches for yet some other betrayal.

One of the ways that people deal with PTSD is to tell their story over and over again. The theory is that when we are in the moment of trauma, we turn off our emotions to get ourselves through it and survive. As we take care of ourselves and start to recover, we have to deal with the emotions of the betrayal. We all process emotions in different ways and I know that I have distracted myself from dealing with emotions by obsessing/ruminating on the details of my fWH's A. (What they did, where they were, what he thought and felt about her) My mind knows everything I need to know about the affair, but my heart will not let it go. I ask questions over and over again that I already know the answers to. The need to know is crucial and valid. For too long, we've been outside the door of the affair with no awareness of what's going on behind it. In order for a marriage to heal we have to know all of the details... to open the door and have the chance to take a look around. But at some point in time, our re-thinking and re-thinking, is not actually productive. We are not dealing with the emotions of the trauma, instead we are hurting ourselves and "pain shopping".

Perhaps you have already thought of all of this, but I throw this out there as a possibility for you and others to consider.

When do we have to stop the pain shopping and start focusing on the present and healing from the traumatic hurt.

hopefulmother posted 11/9/2013 16:47 PM

Hey Blake...we seem to be triggering on cue here. 14 months since D-day...

Been what? Two weeks...then something just snaps when things are going good. No trigger...just a moment of "oh yeah...this is what he risked to lose."

The Climb sums it up perfectly

You are still trying to understand something that will never, ever make sense.
About a year ago, FWH acted a little hurt that the OW had replaced him so quickly. This really pissed me off. I had been trying to get him to see that she wasn't the poor, innocent widow just needing to be loved. These are the questions I ask over and over again, trying to get him to see her as she really is. Then, just like you two, our evening is ruined. I am guessing that neither you nor I am getting the answer we want.

...we worry about how they still see the "other" woman/man. What makes them so damn special. Why can't they see...why couldn't they see how broken the "other" was. That they were not better than what they already had.

I think you ask all the time...just like I ask all the time..."What did you say to her...text her."? We want to dispel the intimacy they had. We want to ruin what made it good/fun/special what ever they thought it was (fucked up is what we call it). We don't want them to have any secrets. We want to make sure they feel the disgust that we feel.

We want to ask till it doesn't hurt anymore...even if things are going well (it reminds us of what could have been lost...what was at risk-its own trigger)

In the end...we have accepted that this is the reality of our happily ever after...but we still rage against the injustice of it all.

I will follow with a letter someone wrote on another site. Let me see if I can get it...perfect example of asking questions because (well we just weren't there). They didn't share this with us...the most important person in their life...but with someone else.
Go have a good cry/rage...and see you in two weeks or hopefully more.

Chippednotbroken posted 11/9/2013 16:51 PM

Pain shopping. I very much feel this. The affair is like a scab and I keep wanting to pick at it. I want to find another affair. I keep asking so I can discover some new pain. Ugh. I even thought we had a breakthrough yesterday And I'm right back to it today.

hopefulmother posted 11/9/2013 17:00 PM

It is long...but interesting...a letter someone else wrote to their spouse....

"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened, and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me, and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally. Much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened those times you were with her intimately, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand that, No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain, over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering, why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking doesn't she know by now that I love her? I can see how you can feel this way, and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter, I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them, and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is, and what it means to you and if it can effect your life. Whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind, and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.

"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me, as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about those intimate times, that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of those times you spent together, and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value, is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically, I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at, and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture, you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later, when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle, you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture, as you do, but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture, and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart...you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that, I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and, slowly over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward, and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life, and to move on? Of course it would, but I can't!, and the reason I can't is because I love you!!!, and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world!!