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User Topic: Is this rugsweeping?
pointofnoreturn
♀ 41034
Member # 41034
Default  Posted: 8:58 AM, November 9th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So, Dday#2 is barely shy of the 1 and a half month mark. The A in particular is about 2 years old now. I still feel like shit, but it isn't about how I feel. It's about my BBF.

He seems to be...okay. About the first couple of weeks, he was a complete mess. It was so hard to just watch him cry, an cry, and cry. And then it just kind of stopped. During this time, I fell a bit ill. Despite all that I did to him, he took care of me. Unfortunately, I got him sick, but then I took care of him in return.

I guess I mention this because this is where the point was that he just stopped crying about it. There were later incidents where he got angry, at me and the OPs, but he was never particularly sad about it.

Then, after our first session of CC, he stopped being angry about it. Or at least, outwardly angry about it.

He's stated before that he has forgiven me.

This is all so confusing and worrying. Rewind to my first A. He was angry, he was sad, and then one day he just stopped. It felt like we both swept it under the rug and pretended it never happened.

I'm afraid this would have the same fate. I don't want to have him just keep his feelings inside. Only recently did I learn he got upset every time we went to the grocery store, because we pass by a store with OP#1's name in it. Something from 2011 still upset him at 2013, and I was none the wiser!

I can't force him. I ask him how he feels about it. It seems I'm the only one that brings up the As. He says now that sometimes it makes him sad, other times he's mad (at the OPs according to him), and other times its just a "meh, that happened."

But at a grand scale, it seems mostly back to normal? We've returned to our regular activities, he's happy and silly with me, things like sex doesn't phase him at all.

Should I just count this as a blessing and just continue to work on myself? Or is he just burying his hurt and pain for my sake?

I'm glad he isn't a complete and total wreck, but reading on how other people's stories are still going through R 3 years down the line, I have to wonder if its how he really feels.

My only suspicion as to why he's so forgiving about it, is that the As were a long time ago, and that the past 2 years, I have remained NC voluntarily, and since then I haven't done anything to make him think otherwise.

I just don't know if this means we're just going at it faster, or if he's just wanting to bury it.


Me- WGF 22
Him- BBF 21
Ddays:
August 2011
September 26th, 2013

"A lesson is learned. Life is. Simply. There is no Death. There is no Before. There is no After. All is in Flux. Simply."


Posts: 187 | Registered: Oct 2013
doesitgetbetter
♀ 18429
Member # 18429
Default  Posted: 9:38 AM, November 9th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Something from 2011 still upset him at 2013, and I was none the wiser!

That statement alone indicates rugsweeping to me. He is not letting you know when he's bothered and what he's bothered about, so he is totally rugsweeping. There are many couples on here who rugswept the affairs only to have the hurt, anger, pain, fear rear it's ugly head years or even decades later and wreak havoc on their life. It's not healthy to keep one's feelings bottled up like that, and it certainly isn't conducive to an intimate relationship to not even know how the other person really feels now is it? It can also mess with the healing of the WS because there are all those extra feelings of confusion and then shock years later when it shows back up.... then you both start the whole R process from the beginning and now the WS doesn't feel as much shame and guilt about it because all those years of working on yourself and healing yourself have happened. It's a mess. It should really be cleaned up sooner rather than later IMO.


DDay - Dec '07
Me - BS
Him - FWS
Us - Committed
May 18, 2010 - I forgave him fully!
"Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction." Isaiah 48:10

Posts: 3859 | Registered: Feb 2008
pointofnoreturn
♀ 41034
Member # 41034
Default  Posted: 10:24 AM, November 9th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

How then do I get him to open up? I tell him if he has any questions about the A, just ask me. I tell him my thoughts and feelings, and if there's a situation that upsets me. (Such as one time "Back in My Arms Again" by the Supremes played on the radio during a date,,,sigh).

He doesn't object to talking about the As, he just never brings it up. And it's hard to tell if something is bothering him or not because its never apparent. All those times we drove by, he never got quiet or had a sullen look on his face.


Me- WGF 22
Him- BBF 21
Ddays:
August 2011
September 26th, 2013

"A lesson is learned. Life is. Simply. There is no Death. There is no Before. There is no After. All is in Flux. Simply."


Posts: 187 | Registered: Oct 2013
sisoon
♂ 31240
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 11:29 AM, November 9th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

1) Many years ago, a young (22) woman colleague told me that, after graduating from college, she only dated men who were 25 or older - she just didn't see younger men as able to sustain a relationship past a date or 2.

2) Yeah, it sounds like rug-sweeping to me.

3) There's nothing you can do to open him up, except be open to his sharing yourself.

4) You cheated twice, which means you're not something-or-other enough to sustain a long term relationship. What are you doing to change yourself into great partner material? (That's meant as a real question, not a veiled attack.)

(Edited to remove a suggestion to check out the WS forum, because I checked your profile and saw you know about it.)

[This message edited by sisoon at 11:32 AM, November 9th (Saturday)]


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10582 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
doesitgetbetter
♀ 18429
Member # 18429
Default  Posted: 11:41 AM, November 9th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

He's got a couple things going against him right now.... first, he's VERY young. Young people don't know as much about themselves, how to express things, who they are, what they want, etc. and are still dealing with fresh issues from their own upbringing (speaking very generally here, and as having been a young person who thought I knew everything once as well ;-) ).

Second thing is he's a male. I'm going to generalize here a little bit because it's very common for men to have issues expressing emotions, and it's true for a lot of men. Not all, but a lot. It sounds like he definitely fits this category as well by his actions you outline.

So he's got some big obstacles to overcome. I'm not sure if he's ready, but one thing that literally changed my H's life is going to Retrouvaille. My H had never been able to express emotions throughout his entire life. It just wasn't allowed in his home. Because of this, my H dealt with one of his brothers repeatedly sleeping with his girlfriends by just saying "eh, she wasn't a good girlfriend anyway" and moving on to the next girlfriend, never confronting the brother. Clearly NOT a healthy way to think. When our son was born, he was not expected to live through the night. H never shed a tear that night, while I cried like a baby.

Fast forward to his infidelity, exposure, hurt and pain on my part, tears of shame from him a few times, and we attended Retrou. It was intense, it was very educational, and it taught him how to FEEL things, as well as how to try to identify those feelings. I'm not kidding when I say my H didn't even know what the feeling he was feeling was called. He would ask me "it feels like this and this, what feeling is that?" And I would have to tell him what I thought he was describing, rephrase it to match the definition of that feeling, and he would say yes or no until we identified what it was exactly he was feeling. I compare it to trying to describe what someone is seeing for the first time after they've been blind for so long and explaining what colors are, how the sunset changes, etc.

On the last day of Retrou, for the first time EVER, my H cried like a baby over the near loss of our son after his birth. He cried like it had JUST happened, and our son was 9 years old by this time and as healthy as could be. But he had repressed it for so long. He finally stopped repressing and started feeling, and started HEALING that day.

Today, my H is VERY in touch with his emotions and feelings. He is also VERY in touch with MY feelings and emotions, and he asks me all the time what is going on with me that is making me seem a little "off" at the time. He notices things before I even do now. It has completely changed his life, he is happier now, he lets out his emotions, he expresses his feelings of frustration and fear and whatever else he's feeling. And he's so much healthier as well.

Again, not sure if your BBF is ready for it both because of his age and because of his place in R right now or not, but it is certainly something to check out.


DDay - Dec '07
Me - BS
Him - FWS
Us - Committed
May 18, 2010 - I forgave him fully!
"Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction." Isaiah 48:10

Posts: 3859 | Registered: Feb 2008
pointofnoreturn
♀ 41034
Member # 41034
Default  Posted: 12:46 PM, November 14th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm a bit confused by this advice. It just seems to me to be summed up with "you're both young" and "don't date a man that's not 25+".

I'm aware of us being young and far less experienced. However, I think everyone here all have one experience in common.

I just want to make sure this is what I'm hearing and understanding. I don't want to just give up on this relationship like that.


Me- WGF 22
Him- BBF 21
Ddays:
August 2011
September 26th, 2013

"A lesson is learned. Life is. Simply. There is no Death. There is no Before. There is no After. All is in Flux. Simply."


Posts: 187 | Registered: Oct 2013
tushnurse
♀ 21101
Member # 21101
Default  Posted: 1:04 PM, November 14th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

pointofnoreturn, I too am a bit confused by the point Sisoon was trying to make which is quite unusual.

Here is my take on this. Is it rugsweeping? Yah probably, Why? Most likely because he has no idea or other tools to use to deal with it. Make sure that you are both continuing to go to CC. I think he will start to open up more when he starts to feel safer with you. You have betrayed him twice, and though he may love you, he may also not trust you when you tell him what the weather outside it like, but because he is conflict avoidant, he doesn't know how to challenge you on it. Make sense?

I would strongly recommnend reading and doing the exercises together in 7 Principles. This helps to rebuild some basic relationship stuff. It will also give you an idea of what he is thinking and how he is thinking.

Encourage him to talk about his fears, concerns, and triggers (I'm sure he has them, like the store name) Make sure he knows that YOU want to help him work through those triggers.

Keep doing the work on you to figure out your why's as well. He deserves a great partner.


Me: FBS
Him: FWS
Kids: 15 & 17
Married for 22 years now, was 16 at the time. .
D-Day Sept 26 2008
Fully R'd, and Happy Happy Happy

Posts: 8798 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: St. Louis
sisoon
♂ 31240
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 3:12 PM, November 14th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sorry - sometimes I don't say things explicitly enough.

My meaning was that your BF may not have matured enough to handle his feelings. That's not meant as a criticism - it's difficult for many men (including me) to learn to work with feelings.

[This message edited by sisoon at 3:35 PM, November 14th (Thursday)]


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10582 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
pointofnoreturn
♀ 41034
Member # 41034
Default  Posted: 10:33 PM, November 15th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

A couple of things. He's not devoid of any and all emotion. It just seems like for the most part, he doesn't discuss what he's feeling with me. To be fair, he is home alone for 8 hours while I'm at work, so he could very well be expressing these feelings when I'm gone. I call him on my breaks, and everything seems "fine".

I don't think him being male has anything to do with it. Being male doesn't mean you have an innate inability to express emotions. It has more to do with traditional gender roles, and I'm pretty sure he's suffered from that.

His family was a military family. His dad always resorted to anger to solve problems (Upset at the dinner table? I guess flipping the table with a bunch of food on it is A-OKAY!). This in turn, has affected him negatively.

Thinking on it, he does have anger problems. Oftentimes, he'd take out his anger on me, even pre-A. If we get in an argument, he has my As on ready as a trump card.

Perhaps in a way, he knows that he can't control himself when he's angry. He says horrible things to me, deserved or not. So maybe he's just holding it in for my sake?

That isn't to say any and every discussion about the A ends in a one-sided screaming match, but just that he never initiates the conversations.


Me- WGF 22
Him- BBF 21
Ddays:
August 2011
September 26th, 2013

"A lesson is learned. Life is. Simply. There is no Death. There is no Before. There is no After. All is in Flux. Simply."


Posts: 187 | Registered: Oct 2013
doesitgetbetter
♀ 18429
Member # 18429
Default  Posted: 3:34 PM, November 16th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have to say, in disagreeing with what everyone has posted, you have really proven my points for me. It seems like you might be arguing to be right because you don't like the terminology used... I don't know.

You say:

It has more to do with traditional gender roles, and I'm pretty sure he's suffered from that.

And I said:

it's very common for men to have issues expressing emotions, and it's true for a lot of men. Not all, but a lot. It sounds like he definitely fits this category as well by his actions you outline.

Those mean the same exact thing. I simply didn't clarify that it's not a DNA thing because he has a penis that makes him have difficulty expressing his emotions. My apologies for not being specific enough.

You said:

His family was a military family. His dad always resorted to anger to solve problems (Upset at the dinner table? I guess flipping the table with a bunch of food on it is A-OKAY!). This in turn, has affected him negatively.

Thinking on it, he does have anger problems. Oftentimes, he'd take out his anger on me, even pre-A.

I had said:

are still dealing with fresh issues from their own upbringing

Same thing. No need to elaborate at all. He's got FOO issues and has had since before the infidelity. And he's obviously having issues dealing with them if he takes his anger out on his partner.

You said:

It just seems like for the most part, he doesn't discuss what he's feeling with me. To be fair, he is home alone for 8 hours while I'm at work, so he could very well be expressing these feelings when I'm gone.

I went on to explain how Retrou changed my H's life. Remember how I pointed out that my H was never allowed so show emotions at home... he carried this to adulthood and didn't share anything with me either. Much like your BBF does with you.

Whatever the reason he's bottling things up, that doesn't mean that it's healthy, that doesn't mean that it's good. Bottling things up leads to outbursts when those things come bubbling to the surface, and they always do, even if it's decades later. So whether this is new or old behavior for him, it's not usually indicative of a healthy way to handle things. The mature way to handle feelings and disagreements with ones spouse is to discuss them, and work through them. Not only that, but it's healthier and builds a firm foundation of respect, trust, and intimacy between two people.

My point is, rather than argue semantics, listen to the advice people have here. Sometimes it may come out wrong, sometimes the best word or phrase may not be used, but it's usually easy to tell the intention. And yes, you ARE both very young. And you seem to take offense when someone points that out. They are not saying it to implicate you are stupid or don't know what you're doing, they are mentioning that to let you know that there is a lot of things that you both really don't know and can use some help with... much like I will never be able to learn half of the stuff my 80 year old grandmother knows before I turn 40 because she's simply seen far more than I have. We have walked where you are walking before you and we are trying to show you the breadcrumb trail we have left. We are trying to help you. We try to help each other all the time. We're not your parents, we are not speaking to you like you're a child, we are speaking to you like someone who might be a little wiser after having had more experience with an issue you are dealing with.

Good luck Pain.


DDay - Dec '07
Me - BS
Him - FWS
Us - Committed
May 18, 2010 - I forgave him fully!
"Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction." Isaiah 48:10

Posts: 3859 | Registered: Feb 2008
pointofnoreturn
♀ 41034
Member # 41034
Default  Posted: 3:59 PM, November 16th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't know if I'm expressing myself right.

Okay, so A #1 happened in 2011. And the both of us just swept it under the carpet. It was a one time thing, no big deal, I forgive you...and so on and so forth.

Come to DDay #2. I started to take more action. Action to make up for this as well as digging deep into the first one.

What I'm trying to say is, he's not an emotionless robot that can only express anger. When we talk about the subject matter, he does express emotion besides anger.

The problem though is that often enough, this information only comes from if I initiate the conversation. Thus far, he's never just sat me down to talk about the As.

And that's my dilemma. I feel that while he's perfectly capable of expressing emotion, I never see it unless we talk about it. He does say that he thinks about the As daily, but rather views them from an analytical viewpoint?

I guess I don't know what I want here. I should be "lucky" I don't see him on the brink of tears everyday. But what worries me is if when he says he's "fine", he's not.

As for the age and gender thing, it's upsetting because its stereotyping to me. It's not a, "How dare these old farts talk down to me like that!", but rather I don't see how "he's male so he has a more difficult time with expressing emotions" or "only date men that are older" helps. I don't get annoyed when my age is brought up when it's relevant, but rather when it's not.


Me- WGF 22
Him- BBF 21
Ddays:
August 2011
September 26th, 2013

"A lesson is learned. Life is. Simply. There is no Death. There is no Before. There is no After. All is in Flux. Simply."


Posts: 187 | Registered: Oct 2013
doggiediva
♀ 33806
Member # 33806
Default  Posted: 4:30 PM, November 16th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think there is some rug sweeping going on but he may not realize it as such, it may just be his normal ingrained response to dealing with horrible stress..

Some people have to deal with stress (no matter how horrible) in small chunks so that they can function in day to day life/work situations without having a total meltdown..

If you guys are in a good spot with each other as far as day to day life, all I can say is being open to learning and advice(whenever you reach out for it) is a good thing...We all need that..If you continue to be receptive when he does want to talk about life than I think only time will tell how the situation between you two evolves..

I think the references to your ages were meant to be encouraging not patronizing...

[This message edited by doggiediva at 4:33 PM, November 16th (Saturday)]


Don't tie your happiness to the tail of somebody else's kite

Posts: 1362 | Registered: Nov 2011
sisoon
♂ 31240
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 12:34 PM, November 17th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't see how "he's male so he has a more difficult time with expressing emotions" or "only date men that are older" helps.

That's a serious misreading of what I posted. The 2nd simply does not follow necessarily from the first; it's only one of many approaches. Further, the proposition that he's not yet mature enough to deal with the emotions that come with being betrayed is pretty much testable; it's not a judgment.

Besides, you've already stated your specific BF has trouble with emotions, so I don't see that arguing about the source helps anyone, although it does allow you to postpone dealing with the real issue here - namely, that your BF doesn't express his emotions the way you want him to.

You can't read your BF's mind. What you can do is focus on your own issues over this disconnect in your relationship.

Offering support to your BF is only part of your healing; actually, his healing is his responsibility, and WS support isn't necessary, though it's nice to have.

Changing yourself is the crucial part of your healing, much more important than providing support to your BF.

I mean the following gently: I committed and stay committed to R because I experience my W doing the work of R every day. My open-ness about myself is a direct result of her behavior.

Is it possible that your BF is less open to you and/or to his own feelings than he wants to be, because he's not comfortable with your commitment to R? What has he seen you do to heal yourself? What have you done to show your commitments to being a great partner? (Note: these are real questions - I don't know what your answers are.)

[This message edited by sisoon at 12:35 PM, November 17th (Sunday)]


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10582 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
pointofnoreturn
♀ 41034
Member # 41034
Default  Posted: 2:44 PM, November 17th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

He wants to reconcile. He's stated many times before that he wants to stay with me and he wants to work this out.

As far as what I've been doing, I've been researching every nook and cranny for answers about infidelity. I'm posting and reading everything here, I've gone through the Healing Library, I'm having weekly IC. I'm making every opportunity to thank him for another chance, and to show my appreciation for him via my love language. (I'm a gift-giver, so bounds of silly notes, dinners, and stupid presents galore!)

This quote in particular is what set me off.

1) Many years ago, a young (22) woman colleague told me that, after graduating from college, she only dated men who were 25 or older - she just didn't see younger men as able to sustain a relationship past a date or 2.

Okay, what does that mean? Because from how I perceive it, you're saying "all men below the age of 25 are like this, so stop trying". Again, you state this isn't a judgment, but that it's testable.

Because of how that was said, I interpreted as, "you're young, just cut your losses and leave". That doesn't fix my problem at all.

Again, the age issue is not the problem here. My problem is "how do I get my BF to open up", to which the advice is "he's young so he can't/has a hard time to"?

I thinking about removing the ages from my signature if this is what it causes.


Me- WGF 22
Him- BBF 21
Ddays:
August 2011
September 26th, 2013

"A lesson is learned. Life is. Simply. There is no Death. There is no Before. There is no After. All is in Flux. Simply."


Posts: 187 | Registered: Oct 2013
sisoon
♂ 31240
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 3:35 PM, November 17th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

show my appreciation for him via my love language

The point of the 5LL stuff is that you need to communicate your partner in your partner's LL, not in yours.

I like physical touch; my W likes acts of service. I used to touch her a lot; she used to do things for me. Now she touches me a lot, and I do stuff for her. The positive payoff for both of us is tremendous.

I've been researching every nook and cranny for answers about infidelity. I'm posting and reading everything here, I've gone through the Healing Library, I'm having weekly IC. I'm making every opportunity to thank him for another chance,

That's all good stuff.

What's your goal for yourself? I want my W to change from cheater to great partner. Reading/research can help - but the work that really makes a difference is personal work, specific to her. I'm not really part of that.

Similarly, my healing is up to me. It's my problem to solve. When my W tries to drive my healing - or even just to have an impact on it - it doesn't help. It's more of an intrusion or an annoyance. She really means she knows better than I do what I need - and that isn't so.

My problem is "how do I get my BF to open up"

Hmmm...I'd frame it differently - 'My problem for this post is that I don't know how to deal with my BF's response to my As.'

BTW, you don't say you ask your BF what he wants and accept his answer. That's what you need to do, IMO. You can make suggestions. You can offer something. But you must accept his answer, if you want to R and build a good life together.

I want you to reframe your ideas about R, but you get to choose whether or not to do it. You want your BF to do something different to heal; he gets to choose, too. If you can't be comfortable with each other's choices, why stay together?

Okay, what does that mean? Because from how I perceive it, you're saying "all men below the age of 25 are like this, so stop trying".

I assure you, I didn't mean to insult you. You know your sitch better than I do. If my comments about age don't fit, ignore them.

There are a couple of implications for 'he may not be mature enough' that you seem to have missed. First, 'he may not be mature enough' also means 'he may be mature enough'.

Second, 'he may not be mature enough' is at least IMO similar to 'an 8 year old's body isn't mature enough to throw a curve ball.' Admittedly, the 2nd statement has less emotion associated with it than the first


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10582 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
Topic Posts: 15

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