Found out my W had at least an EA with an old high school friend that started about 18 months ago. She fabricated a total lie to go on a trip (she told me she was meeting her family she stayed with while overseas in college)and the OM helped her with this lie. I only found out because I had to restore my cell phone to her last backup, and I got her copy of the text conversations. I was with ou 9 month old daughter in the middle of the grocery store when I saw it on 11/3. I felt like I had been shot. My stomach and chest hurt. This same OM brought his son to visit us about 6 weeks after that initial trip. I babysitted for an evening while they went out...how could I have been so blind? Easy, I trusted.
I immediately fired off an email to the OM, with a couple of questions, and the promise that the next time I see him, it will not go well for him. I then texted my W and told her we needed to talk when I got home. She immediately called and I informed her I knew about it as I walked about the grocery store. I then hung up and proceeded to finish up the shopping then headed home, and completely ignored my wife while I spent my entire day with my daughter.
After my daughter went to bed, I demanded to know everything. She denied that anything had happened beyond what I had discovered. She admitted to lying about the premise of the trip, and that even for the last few days of it, the OM wife was there too, so that nothing happened. My W claims that when the OM and his son came to visit, nothing happened, they just met some friends from high school in a bar. We left the conversation as we both agreed that we want to work things out. Later I found her crying in bed talking about suicide, life insurance, divorce. I just told her to call a cab if she needed to go to hospital, if not, let me know. I made her assure me that she could take care of our daughter.
Sunday night, instead of working, I found this site and did a bunch of reading. Continued that reading into Monday. And tried to have a conversation with her Monday night (11/4) I asked to go through details of trip and subsequent visit. She told me they only kissed and couldn't go through it. And that nothing at all happened on the subsequent trip.
She refused to do a NC letter, but agreed to NC. However I had to ask her 3 days later (11/7) why the OM contact information was still on our phone.
She outright refused to give me complete and total access to her cell phone, emails, and social networking accounts. Yes, this really bothers me. She claims it would shred her sense of privacy and that if I can't trust her we should just end the marriage. I told her if I can't see her phone, that my mind will now always expect the worse, and that it will be more difficult for me to trust again. And we had the circular argument "if you can't trust we should D" and "just show me the phone" back and forth.
I go between the denial stage, and hurt stage. It would be really easy to just bury my head and soldier on, pretend my feelings don't count, pretend what she did doesn't matter. But I know, if I had done the "exact" same thing that she did, I would be paying for it in spades. I know I'm already letting her off easy. She has physical and mental health issues (which have been a major part of our marriage)and my top priority is my daughter.
Oh well, if nothing else comes of this at least a vented a bit.
EDIT 1/16/14-The OM from Adult Friend Finder (which I did not know about when I originally wrote this post) was in my house with my WW when I was posting this.
[This message edited by Michman at 12:04 PM, January 16th (Thursday)]
The circular arguments with here aren't going to get you anywhere. I feel that any demand you make, she'll won't comply. I get a sense that she feels entitled to "protections and rights". She has only left you an opening of deal with it or divorce. I don't feel that you are ready to divorce so to make an ultimatum of "do this or I'll divorce you" would be ill advised.
Definitely take care of your daughter right now.
As for her suicide talk, has she done this in the past? Have you thought about taking her to the ER when she is like this?
Think of the haters in your life as sandpaper; they’ll scratch you up time and time again but in the end you’re polished, smooth, and spotless..while they end up useless
We make a living by what we get, but we make a life by what we give.
That is when I knew he wasn't really interested in full R…but we struggled a few more months. What he did, which actually bothered me more, is he bought a new phone because, "well…I don't know who all has my number and I don't want something innocent to blow up with you!". Yeah. Red Flag.
So, we got new phones with new phone numbers, and I had access to THAT phone during R.
There is something she doesn't want you to know. That is the only reason for hiding.
There are lot of people to support you here!
and because you are hurting it is hard to think straight...
So...
YOU: "YES, honey, a successful M indeed requires trust, but you have gravely broken my trust and now you will have to earn my trust back. It will take a long time and effort on your part."
HER: "BLAH BLAH BLAH"
YOU: "as a matter of fact, if you continue to resist transparency by giving me access to your stuff, then you are showing me that earning my trust is not important to you and thus it will take even longer."
DO not couch this in terms of your fears/weakness:
I told her if I can't see her phone, that my mind will now always expect the worse
Also Mich, look for posts by member "Bigger"...he has a lot to say about how to get yourself OUT of infidelity, either with or without your WW.
Also, sorry to say this, but 'just kissed' is probably minimizing...
Sorry you are here...
When you are married.. nothing is private. It is two becoming one. Too me.. If she must have this privacy, NO WAY I am in a marriage like that.. I hope that is the same for YOU.
True.. If she cannot trust you with her private info.. Yes you should D. That is about YOU not her.. YOu should not want this kind of M.
The unsaid thing in her penance.. her consequences is to reveal... And yes, as painful as it is.. It will help you later accept.
Something you must now consider.. Can you be a man who can handle what you already know?
I think you are approaching this the right way for now. Stay strong brother..
Peace be with you.
If she refuses, contact an attorney and make sure she knows you did. If she thinks you are serious about leaving, that may be enough to jar her back to reality.
It is a long road and is not fun, but you can make it through and things will get better, no matter what happens. Keep posting. You will get a lot of support here.
talking about suicide
the OM wife was there too, so that nothing happened
Her circular logic is anything but logical. Do not allow yourself to be pulled in to the quicksand that is circular logic. This is a defense used by WS's who assume that the threat of divorce will make you cower and bend to their will. State your intention and leave it at that. You need her to be transparent to establish a foundation from which to build trust. No, you do not trust her right now as well you shouldn't.
My biggest mistake thus far has been not calling my husbands bluff. I tried to reason through his circular logic out of fear of losing him. I figured, "if he only understood why I need this, then he would surely engage in my request." No. They fully understand, but want to maintain some type of control of the life that is slipping through their fingers. State your claim and walk away. It is the only thing that saved my sanity and got him to drop his demands. Imagine that! The moment I stop reasoning, responding, engaging with him, he has an "A HA!" moment. Best of luck. SI will help. Everyone here has helped me through some very dark times.
~~Tao Te Ching
She claims it would shred her sense of privacy and that if I can't trust her we should just end the marriage.
She just proven to you that you can't trust her, by lying to you, and continuing to lie to you, and the reason she doesn't want the accounts open to you is that she has to hide that or the lies become exposed.
I would call her on her BS, and tell her that if she doesn't turn it all over, and now, that you will know that the worst that could happen, did happen, for there is absolutely no other reason for hiding these things.
Having "secrecy" is what she wants, not privacy.
Secrecy destroys relationships (ask my wife, the former biggest secret keeper on earth, who had to be brought to the doorway of divorce before she would stop keeping secrets...and not just about her affair), a fact that our MC pointed out and explained quite well to my wife as we went through the years of MC till she got the point.
You can have your secrets, or you can have a healthy equitable marriage, but you can't have both.
She refused to do a NC letter, but agreed to NC. However I had to ask her 3 days later (11/7) why the OM contact information was still on our phone. She outright refused to give me complete and total access to her cell phone, emails, and social networking accounts. Yes, this really bothers me. She claims it would shred her sense of privacy and that if I can't trust her we should just end the marriage.
She outright refused to give me complete and total access to her cell phone, emails, and social networking accounts. Yes, this really bothers me. She claims it would shred her sense of privacy and that if I can't trust her we should just end the marriage.
The million dollar question is: What are you going to do about it?
Of course it is easy to tell you to go get a divorce if she won't comply. But we all know that it is not that easy. But we also know that this can not be left unresolved, and the sad truth is that she IS putting you on an eventual path to divorce with this behavior. You may not file today or tomorrow, but if her defiance continues, and you are not willing to just "shut up and take it", then you will eventually find yourself asking why you stayed around as long as you did.
It takes two committed people to attempt reconciliation---and there is no guarantees for success. There is only a guaranteed chance of failure if the wayward mindset does not go away. And you have to be prepared for this. You have to let your wife know that while there is no ultimatum at this moment, that she is guaranteeing your loss of interest in the marriage with her current behavior. This message is the easiest for you to explain to her---because it will be an eventuality whether you like it or not. Your marriage will die a slow, painful death.
You can't fix her. She has a lot of issues, and she has to address them herself---most certainly with counseling. But you can let her know in no uncertain terms that you will not continue in this current direction. Then start emotionally detaching.
Read up on the 180. Start putting yourself first, because you need to get out of this infidelity...with or without her. Keep posting with as much information as you are comfortable with, because the more that we know, the more that we can possibly help.
Good luck.
All work and no play has just cost me my wife--Gary Puckett D-Day: 9/18/09 D-Day#2: 2/19/10 The Marriage Killer: 6/6/11 Heading for D
Its likely she had a PA with this guy and until she gives you the full details, and shows some true remorse, your relationship will continue to deteriorate. You have to draw a line in the sand and demand total honesty and full access to her communication devices, or the marriage is going to die a slow death. Her arrogant pride is the first thing that needs to go.
When she says this if you can't trust her you should just end the marriage what she is really saying is that she wants you to back off if you don't want to D. The threats of self-harm come from a similar place. It's manipulative and calculating no matter how upset she seems at the time.
NC is non-negotiable imho IC is non-negotiable (MC can happen later)
Her argument that nothing happened when OM's wife was there is dubious at best. Unfortunately I've heard of too many times when something did happen under those very circumstances.
Bottom line is she broke the trust, she needs to do the work to earn it back.
As for comments concerning her suicide talk, I have taken her to hospitals and she is IC for her mental and physical health issues. Lately (last 9 months or so) it seems to be another defense mechanism to get me to back off.
Since D-Day I have spent considerable time getting information on the OM and OMW. Work history, current employment, work emails, social network accounts; but other than the first angry short email to OM (which there has not been a reply) I have done nothing. NC is NC right? I don't know if there is anything to be gained by contacting the OM wife.
I am fully aware it most likely wasn't "just kissing. Because neither of us (OM and WS) could go through with it" which is what she tells me. I went to the doctor last week. No news is good news. I am having a paternity test done, although I don't think the results will change how much I love my daughter.
I am focusing on my daughter and myself and my job and activities and hobbies I enjoy. I am emotionally detaching until my WS decides to stop keeping secrets, but hey, I am a nice guy and will let her poop with door closed. I guess it will come down to either living with it, or going for the D the way things are now....hopefully by implementing the 180 the WS will wake up. She goes from showing signs of remorse to acting like everything is ok. She never initiates a conversation about the EA/PA.
I am seeing a counselor next week, feeling like I need help put all this out in front of a person that kind of knows me (not that I don't appreciate what y'all have said, because I really do) I have worked with him before and he is aware of my WS other challenges as well. The month after the trip and OM visit my mother died. The month after that we found out we were expecting a child (who is 9 months old now). Processing this information on top off all the other stuff is blowing my mind.
The part that really bothers me to this day is that when she took this trip, she was really doing well with her depression and health issues, and I was so proud of her for taking a trip "all by herself." I helped with flight itineraries. I even changed her ticket so she could stay 4 days longer with the "OM and wife and kid" and go sightseeing. I took half a day off from work to meet her at the airport, because I wanted too! I was so proud of her. Shortly after her return, she informed me that the OM and son would be visiting for 2 days and a night the next month. I was happy to reciprocate the hospitality that the OM and his family had shown my wife. Instead I got a CC bill for over $800 for a marriage vacation.
Thanks again for your suggestions and replies...it feels good to read them.
You have your head on straight for sure. As a Vet here, I do want to offer a few words of advice to you. This is in your best intrest, not necissarily the best intrest of your M.
Your wife is using her depression as a manipulation tool, and if she doesn't get her head out of RainbowLand then you need to prepare yourself for battle. Meaning this....Every damn time she threatens Suicide you need to get it documented, either by EMS, Police, ER, or her Psych. If she truly is unstable then she needs help, if she is using it as tool to manipulate, then it's going to look really bad on her ability to parent, and create a safe stable environment for your baby.
Next, and I tell everyone this, and did it myself. Go see a lawyer, find out what your rights are, her responsiblities are, and how things would play out should you choose to D. She is already throwing it out there daring you to do this as a way to get you to back off, fear of the unknown can be paralyzing, and knowing how and what you can do will help you.
The Dr's visit, and the IC are a great start, because no matter how strong you are, and how smart you are, your self esteem takes a pretty good hit when you find out the one person in the world that is supposed to be there for you isn't. It SUCKS.
I would share the information you have obtained with the AP's wife. She too deserves to know, and if both of you are paying attention to what they are doing, it may limit any further communication, or taking the A underground. Put a keylogger on her computer, snoop around, see if you can find a second cell. For her to just stop, but refusing to send a NC letter tells me she hasn't stopped.
Lastly know that her choices to engage in this behavior have NOTHING to do with you, your M, or your ability to be a great spouse. Do NOT let her paint you into that corner.
(((((and strength))))
I found out her Facebook login, took almost 300 screenshots of messages.
OM-confirmation of PA. Turns out he was probably using WS as revenge for AP's infidelity. This did not shock me. But it confirms the lie she told me about "just kissing and not being able to go through with it."
Saw messages to two friends of WS wanting to establish FWB relationship. They both shot her down. This was in June of this year.
Chat/picture/videos of an apparently online only (the guy is from UK or Australia)thing. No wonder my cell plan exceeded the data all summer. Apparently they connected at some adult website. This lasted from july to august.
There was also talk of an "almost 3-some" with female friend of ours (she's younger, and we're helping her out with her cell phone bill, she's on our plan) and some other guy.
How could WS be so stupid to leave that stuff in there for 11 days after I found out about the OM?
Is there a way to get a dump of text messages from my WS phone and our "friend" to see hers as well?
Because your W is not a healthy person.
Today, These are big questions you must answer.
Do you want your M? Do you have it within yourself to forgive?
Once you answer those questions.. And please take your time because your feelings today can trick you. IMO, only then can you can proceed.
Because if you go bullying right now you are going to drive her farther away vs bring her back into the M.
Right now.. You can 180 her until you get your answers.. Have your read about the 180? It is a time to be a Man.. Try hard to focus your attention on other things... You are going to have to learn ways to change your thoughts. Thoughts come before feelings. You stayed up all night because of the endless thoughts.. which is because you are in grief. It is a natural brain healer. It is hard but You can do it as time goes on. Expect this to be rough for a few months.
She is going to have a consequence to pay. She must make herself worthy of you now. She might not be willing to pay the price.
Oh yeh.. Know this.. Sometimes, a M can be far better after infidelity.
[This message edited by trynhard at 8:32 AM, November 14th (Thursday)]
