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Michman posted 11/12/2013 12:46 PM

I don't even know where to start....I read some of the articles and links in the healing library. tried to do some of the suggestions with limited success so far. I have no idea how much detail I'm allowed to post or not, so I'll keep it general. Some backstory, my wife has been depressed etc for the last 9 years. After the birth of our daughter, the PPD has been very severe for the past 9 months.

Found out my W had at least an EA with an old high school friend that started about 18 months ago. She fabricated a total lie to go on a trip (she told me she was meeting her family she stayed with while overseas in college)and the OM helped her with this lie. I only found out because I had to restore my cell phone to her last backup, and I got her copy of the text conversations. I was with ou 9 month old daughter in the middle of the grocery store when I saw it on 11/3. I felt like I had been shot. My stomach and chest hurt. This same OM brought his son to visit us about 6 weeks after that initial trip. I babysitted for an evening while they went could I have been so blind? Easy, I trusted.

I immediately fired off an email to the OM, with a couple of questions, and the promise that the next time I see him, it will not go well for him. I then texted my W and told her we needed to talk when I got home. She immediately called and I informed her I knew about it as I walked about the grocery store. I then hung up and proceeded to finish up the shopping then headed home, and completely ignored my wife while I spent my entire day with my daughter.

After my daughter went to bed, I demanded to know everything. She denied that anything had happened beyond what I had discovered. She admitted to lying about the premise of the trip, and that even for the last few days of it, the OM wife was there too, so that nothing happened. My W claims that when the OM and his son came to visit, nothing happened, they just met some friends from high school in a bar. We left the conversation as we both agreed that we want to work things out. Later I found her crying in bed talking about suicide, life insurance, divorce. I just told her to call a cab if she needed to go to hospital, if not, let me know. I made her assure me that she could take care of our daughter.

Sunday night, instead of working, I found this site and did a bunch of reading. Continued that reading into Monday. And tried to have a conversation with her Monday night (11/4) I asked to go through details of trip and subsequent visit. She told me they only kissed and couldn't go through it. And that nothing at all happened on the subsequent trip.

She refused to do a NC letter, but agreed to NC. However I had to ask her 3 days later (11/7) why the OM contact information was still on our phone.

She outright refused to give me complete and total access to her cell phone, emails, and social networking accounts. Yes, this really bothers me. She claims it would shred her sense of privacy and that if I can't trust her we should just end the marriage. I told her if I can't see her phone, that my mind will now always expect the worse, and that it will be more difficult for me to trust again. And we had the circular argument "if you can't trust we should D" and "just show me the phone" back and forth.

I go between the denial stage, and hurt stage. It would be really easy to just bury my head and soldier on, pretend my feelings don't count, pretend what she did doesn't matter. But I know, if I had done the "exact" same thing that she did, I would be paying for it in spades. I know I'm already letting her off easy. She has physical and mental health issues (which have been a major part of our marriage)and my top priority is my daughter.

Oh well, if nothing else comes of this at least a vented a bit.

EDIT 1/16/14-The OM from Adult Friend Finder (which I did not know about when I originally wrote this post) was in my house with my WW when I was posting this.

[This message edited by Michman at 12:04 PM, January 16th (Thursday)]

MovingUpward posted 11/12/2013 13:09 PM

Welcome Michman

The circular arguments with here aren't going to get you anywhere. I feel that any demand you make, she'll won't comply. I get a sense that she feels entitled to "protections and rights". She has only left you an opening of deal with it or divorce. I don't feel that you are ready to divorce so to make an ultimatum of "do this or I'll divorce you" would be ill advised.

Definitely take care of your daughter right now.

As for her suicide talk, has she done this in the past? Have you thought about taking her to the ER when she is like this?

cmego posted 11/12/2013 13:42 PM

My ex did the same when I demanded his phone when we were in R. He said, "I deserve some privacy too!!!" I literally laughed in his face.

That is when I knew he wasn't really interested in full R…but we struggled a few more months. What he did, which actually bothered me more, is he bought a new phone because, "well…I don't know who all has my number and I don't want something innocent to blow up with you!". Yeah. Red Flag.

So, we got new phones with new phone numbers, and I had access to THAT phone during R.

There is something she doesn't want you to know. That is the only reason for hiding.

There are lot of people to support you here!

MC_Jack posted 11/12/2013 14:11 PM

yep that circular argument is annoying...

and because you are hurting it is hard to think straight...


YOU: "YES, honey, a successful M indeed requires trust, but you have gravely broken my trust and now you will have to earn my trust back. It will take a long time and effort on your part."


YOU: "as a matter of fact, if you continue to resist transparency by giving me access to your stuff, then you are showing me that earning my trust is not important to you and thus it will take even longer."

DO not couch this in terms of your fears/weakness:

I told her if I can't see her phone, that my mind will now always expect the worse

^^^No. Tell her complete honesty and transparency are what M is about. If she says that you might as well divorce (a threat to make you back off from her cake-eating and continuing the A), tell her that you will gladly give her divorce and go see a lawyer.

Also Mich, look for posts by member "Bigger"...he has a lot to say about how to get yourself OUT of infidelity, either with or without your WW.

Also, sorry to say this, but 'just kissed' is probably minimizing...

Sorry you are here...

trynhard posted 11/12/2013 14:18 PM

She outright refused to give me complete and total access to her cell phone, emails, and social networking accounts. Yes, this really bothers me. She claims it would shred her sense of privacy and that if I can't trust her we should just end the marriage. I told her if I can't see her phone, that my mind will now always expect the worse, and that it will be more difficult for me to trust again. And we had the circular argument "if you can't trust we should D" and "just show me the phone" back and forth.

I will say this.. Stay strong...

When you are married.. nothing is private. It is two becoming one. Too me.. If she must have this privacy, NO WAY I am in a marriage like that.. I hope that is the same for YOU.

True.. If she cannot trust you with her private info.. Yes you should D. That is about YOU not her.. YOu should not want this kind of M.

The unsaid thing in her penance.. her consequences is to reveal... And yes, as painful as it is.. It will help you later accept.

Something you must now consider.. Can you be a man who can handle what you already know?

I think you are approaching this the right way for now. Stay strong brother..

Peace be with you.

kansas1968 posted 11/12/2013 14:25 PM

She is still in the fog and has not broken her emotional connection to the OM. You are going to have to get tough with her. You can't let her argue with you about her private information. She lost the right to privacy when she broke your trust.
Tell her she has to deliver a NC message to OM, has to give you all access to everything, emails, phones, etc., and it would be a good idea to start counseling.

If she refuses, contact an attorney and make sure she knows you did. If she thinks you are serious about leaving, that may be enough to jar her back to reality.

It is a long road and is not fun, but you can make it through and things will get better, no matter what happens. Keep posting. You will get a lot of support here.

trynhard posted 11/12/2013 14:27 PM

talking about suicide

Don't take a chance next time she talks like that.. call 911.

Rabecca posted 11/12/2013 14:31 PM

Not in the best position to give much advice but stay strong. No one wants to ride this roller coaster. The WS's don't care about anyone's feelings but their own. Keep reading the healing library. There is a lot of great stuff and really great people here too.

jackson posted 11/12/2013 16:09 PM

the OM wife was there too, so that nothing happened

Have you talked to the OM's W about this? I would want her take on what is going on.

brkn_heartd posted 11/12/2013 17:45 PM

Call her to an attorney and let her know you did. Doesn't mean you have to do anything. That will help yank her out of her fantasy world.

statistic posted 11/12/2013 18:40 PM

Dear ((MM))

Her circular logic is anything but logical. Do not allow yourself to be pulled in to the quicksand that is circular logic. This is a defense used by WS's who assume that the threat of divorce will make you cower and bend to their will. State your intention and leave it at that. You need her to be transparent to establish a foundation from which to build trust. No, you do not trust her right now as well you shouldn't.

My biggest mistake thus far has been not calling my husbands bluff. I tried to reason through his circular logic out of fear of losing him. I figured, "if he only understood why I need this, then he would surely engage in my request." No. They fully understand, but want to maintain some type of control of the life that is slipping through their fingers. State your claim and walk away. It is the only thing that saved my sanity and got him to drop his demands. Imagine that! The moment I stop reasoning, responding, engaging with him, he has an "A HA!" moment. Best of luck. SI will help. Everyone here has helped me through some very dark times.

standinghere posted 11/12/2013 19:51 PM

She claims it would shred her sense of privacy and that if I can't trust her we should just end the marriage.

She just proven to you that you can't trust her, by lying to you, and continuing to lie to you, and the reason she doesn't want the accounts open to you is that she has to hide that or the lies become exposed.

I would call her on her BS, and tell her that if she doesn't turn it all over, and now, that you will know that the worst that could happen, did happen, for there is absolutely no other reason for hiding these things.

Having "secrecy" is what she wants, not privacy.

Secrecy destroys relationships (ask my wife, the former biggest secret keeper on earth, who had to be brought to the doorway of divorce before she would stop keeping secrets...and not just about her affair), a fact that our MC pointed out and explained quite well to my wife as we went through the years of MC till she got the point.

You can have your secrets, or you can have a healthy equitable marriage, but you can't have both.

jb3199 posted 11/13/2013 06:09 AM

First off, sorry that you are here. If there is any silver lining, it is that you found a great place for support.

She refused to do a NC letter, but agreed to NC. However I had to ask her 3 days later (11/7) why the OM contact information was still on our phone.

She outright refused to give me complete and total access to her cell phone, emails, and social networking accounts. Yes, this really bothers me. She claims it would shred her sense of privacy and that if I can't trust her we should just end the marriage.

The million dollar question is: What are you going to do about it?

Of course it is easy to tell you to go get a divorce if she won't comply. But we all know that it is not that easy. But we also know that this can not be left unresolved, and the sad truth is that she IS putting you on an eventual path to divorce with this behavior. You may not file today or tomorrow, but if her defiance continues, and you are not willing to just "shut up and take it", then you will eventually find yourself asking why you stayed around as long as you did.

It takes two committed people to attempt reconciliation---and there is no guarantees for success. There is only a guaranteed chance of failure if the wayward mindset does not go away. And you have to be prepared for this. You have to let your wife know that while there is no ultimatum at this moment, that she is guaranteeing your loss of interest in the marriage with her current behavior. This message is the easiest for you to explain to her---because it will be an eventuality whether you like it or not. Your marriage will die a slow, painful death.

You can't fix her. She has a lot of issues, and she has to address them herself---most certainly with counseling. But you can let her know in no uncertain terms that you will not continue in this current direction. Then start emotionally detaching.

Read up on the 180. Start putting yourself first, because you need to get out of this infidelity...with or without her. Keep posting with as much information as you are comfortable with, because the more that we know, the more that we can possibly help.

Good luck.

OK now posted 11/13/2013 07:36 AM

I think the excellent post from jb3199 just sums up the situation perfectly. To some extent many marriages turn into a power struggle for dominance and if your wife gets away with her current attitude she will feel in control. Incidentally, she will lose all respect for you as a consequence.

Its likely she had a PA with this guy and until she gives you the full details, and shows some true remorse, your relationship will continue to deteriorate. You have to draw a line in the sand and demand total honesty and full access to her communication devices, or the marriage is going to die a slow death. Her arrogant pride is the first thing that needs to go.

Bikingguy posted 11/13/2013 08:32 AM

Not giving you access to her phone is not "privacy". Some more experienced members here explained that privacy is closing the bathroom door while you poop, Secrecy is not providing open access to all. And a good M cannot have secrets. Yes Christmas and birthdays are a little harder since I have access to all her comminucations, but that is a very small price to pay for WW to earn back my trust.

Brandon808 posted 11/13/2013 09:09 AM

She's counting on your inherent desire to protect your family and keep it intact to emotionally intimidate you.

When she says this if you can't trust her you should just end the marriage what she is really saying is that she wants you to back off if you don't want to D. The threats of self-harm come from a similar place. It's manipulative and calculating no matter how upset she seems at the time.

NC is non-negotiable imho
IC is non-negotiable (MC can happen later)

Her argument that nothing happened when OM's wife was there is dubious at best. Unfortunately I've heard of too many times when something did happen under those very circumstances.

Bottom line is she broke the trust, she needs to do the work to earn it back.

Michman posted 11/13/2013 09:55 AM

Pleasantly surprised at all the helpful and supportive replies. I am obviously doing this at work so the BS doesn't see or find out. Aren't I the little secret keeper now....

As for comments concerning her suicide talk, I have taken her to hospitals and she is IC for her mental and physical health issues. Lately (last 9 months or so) it seems to be another defense mechanism to get me to back off.

Since D-Day I have spent considerable time getting information on the OM and OMW. Work history, current employment, work emails, social network accounts; but other than the first angry short email to OM (which there has not been a reply) I have done nothing. NC is NC right? I don't know if there is anything to be gained by contacting the OM wife.

I am fully aware it most likely wasn't "just kissing. Because neither of us (OM and WS) could go through with it" which is what she tells me. I went to the doctor last week. No news is good news. I am having a paternity test done, although I don't think the results will change how much I love my daughter.

I am focusing on my daughter and myself and my job and activities and hobbies I enjoy. I am emotionally detaching until my WS decides to stop keeping secrets, but hey, I am a nice guy and will let her poop with door closed. I guess it will come down to either living with it, or going for the D the way things are now....hopefully by implementing the 180 the WS will wake up. She goes from showing signs of remorse to acting like everything is ok. She never initiates a conversation about the EA/PA.

I am seeing a counselor next week, feeling like I need help put all this out in front of a person that kind of knows me (not that I don't appreciate what y'all have said, because I really do) I have worked with him before and he is aware of my WS other challenges as well. The month after the trip and OM visit my mother died. The month after that we found out we were expecting a child (who is 9 months old now). Processing this information on top off all the other stuff is blowing my mind.

The part that really bothers me to this day is that when she took this trip, she was really doing well with her depression and health issues, and I was so proud of her for taking a trip "all by herself." I helped with flight itineraries. I even changed her ticket so she could stay 4 days longer with the "OM and wife and kid" and go sightseeing. I took half a day off from work to meet her at the airport, because I wanted too! I was so proud of her. Shortly after her return, she informed me that the OM and son would be visiting for 2 days and a night the next month. I was happy to reciprocate the hospitality that the OM and his family had shown my wife. Instead I got a CC bill for over $800 for a marriage vacation.

Thanks again for your suggestions and feels good to read them.

tushnurse posted 11/13/2013 11:51 AM


You have your head on straight for sure. As a Vet here, I do want to offer a few words of advice to you. This is in your best intrest, not necissarily the best intrest of your M.

Your wife is using her depression as a manipulation tool, and if she doesn't get her head out of RainbowLand then you need to prepare yourself for battle. Meaning this....Every damn time she threatens Suicide you need to get it documented, either by EMS, Police, ER, or her Psych. If she truly is unstable then she needs help, if she is using it as tool to manipulate, then it's going to look really bad on her ability to parent, and create a safe stable environment for your baby.

Next, and I tell everyone this, and did it myself. Go see a lawyer, find out what your rights are, her responsiblities are, and how things would play out should you choose to D. She is already throwing it out there daring you to do this as a way to get you to back off, fear of the unknown can be paralyzing, and knowing how and what you can do will help you.

The Dr's visit, and the IC are a great start, because no matter how strong you are, and how smart you are, your self esteem takes a pretty good hit when you find out the one person in the world that is supposed to be there for you isn't. It SUCKS.

I would share the information you have obtained with the AP's wife. She too deserves to know, and if both of you are paying attention to what they are doing, it may limit any further communication, or taking the A underground. Put a keylogger on her computer, snoop around, see if you can find a second cell. For her to just stop, but refusing to send a NC letter tells me she hasn't stopped.

Lastly know that her choices to engage in this behavior have NOTHING to do with you, your M, or your ability to be a great spouse. Do NOT let her paint you into that corner.

(((((and strength))))

Michman posted 11/14/2013 07:40 AM

First night of no sleep.....I feel like I've been punched in the stomach 50 times...can't eat either.

I found out her Facebook login, took almost 300 screenshots of messages.

OM-confirmation of PA. Turns out he was probably using WS as revenge for AP's infidelity. This did not shock me. But it confirms the lie she told me about "just kissing and not being able to go through with it."

Saw messages to two friends of WS wanting to establish FWB relationship. They both shot her down. This was in June of this year.

Chat/picture/videos of an apparently online only (the guy is from UK or Australia)thing. No wonder my cell plan exceeded the data all summer. Apparently they connected at some adult website. This lasted from july to august.

There was also talk of an "almost 3-some" with female friend of ours (she's younger, and we're helping her out with her cell phone bill, she's on our plan) and some other guy.

How could WS be so stupid to leave that stuff in there for 11 days after I found out about the OM?

Is there a way to get a dump of text messages from my WS phone and our "friend" to see hers as well?

trynhard posted 11/14/2013 08:26 AM

How could WS be so stupid to leave that stuff in there for 11 days after I found out about the OM?

Because your W is not a healthy person.

Is there a way to get a dump of text messages from my WS phone and our "friend" to see hers as well?

Do you really need to see any more? Not really. But save those text so you can protect your assets if needed. You can take a picture of those text?

Today, These are big questions you must answer.

Do you want your M?
Do you have it within yourself to forgive?

Once you answer those questions.. And please take your time because your feelings today can trick you. IMO, only then can you can proceed.

Because if you go bullying right now you are going to drive her farther away vs bring her back into the M.

Right now.. You can 180 her until you get your answers.. Have your read about the 180? It is a time to be a Man.. Try hard to focus your attention on other things... You are going to have to learn ways to change your thoughts. Thoughts come before feelings. You stayed up all night because of the endless thoughts.. which is because you are in grief. It is a natural brain healer. It is hard but You can do it as time goes on. Expect this to be rough for a few months.

She is going to have a consequence to pay. She must make herself worthy of you now. She might not be willing to pay the price.

Oh yeh.. Know this.. Sometimes, a M can be far better after infidelity.

[This message edited by trynhard at 8:32 AM, November 14th (Thursday)]

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