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User Topic: A-HA! The AP Is a Sociopath, Interesting
SisterMilkshake
♀ 30024
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 9:33 AM, November 25th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

once they set their eyes on you as their main target (their “prize”), psychopaths typically engage in whirlwind romances. They can’t get enough of you. They want to see you and make love to you all the time. They flatter you constantly.
“love bombed,”
We tell our children not to approach strangers who try to lure them with nice words and candy. Those individuals are probably social predators, pedophiles.
Most normal people don’t love bomb. They do not engage in over-the-top flattery; they do not make promises of eternal love right off the bat; they don’t call you the love of their lives without even knowing you. These are patterns of behavior that should be suspicious because they are very common lures for predators.
The flattery, declarations of love and romantic encounters bond and attract the victims to them. This process is not reciprocal. Since psychopaths attach to others without emotionally bonding to them, they only bond the target, not the predator.
“a relationship of inevitable harm.”
When victims are still in the honeymoon phase of the psychopathic bond they rarely believe that the person who appears to woo and romance them so much, the one who claims to adore them, intends to use, control and ultimately destroy them. But as the relationship with a psychopath unfolds, this underlying goal becomes more obvious.
http://psychopathyawareness.wordpress.com/2011/11/15/the-psychopaths-hook-love-bombing-sex-and-flattery/

I found this article and the one about sociopaths wanting to "win" at all costs to resonate very much with our situation. I know this isn't the case with all AP's. But I am sure that this will resonate with many, too. I am in no way saying that my FWH isn't 100% responsible for his choice. No, he 100% chose to fuck a sociopath and bring its cray cray into our lives.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9952 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
Marathonwaseasy
♀ 40674
Member # 40674
Default  Posted: 9:38 AM, November 25th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Oh yes - this is the OW to a fecking tee
With the added desire to destroy me because I had the audacity to be successful

As you say FWH had a choice but these psychopaths are seriously skilled manipulators and he was damn easy prey being seriously mentally ill at the bloody time

So, next question - I know she's a psychopath. She can never be happy and will die alone as psychopaths end up with no friends or family wanting to hang around. How do I let go of the overwhelming desire to stab her?


Me BS, 41
Him WS, 45
EA and PA (PA for 11 months)
DDay 13/9/13
3 children - 15,12,3
WS has bipolar, no excuse...

"We're not broken, just bent. We can learn to love again."


Posts: 421 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Ireland
SisterMilkshake
♀ 30024
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 9:57 AM, November 25th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

In The Sociopath Next Door, Martha Stout raises the following excellent question: “If sociopaths are so focused on their goals and so driven to win, then why do they not win all the time?” She goes on to explain that, basically, sociopaths are losers: “For they do not (win or succeed in life).
They don’t view “winning” in the positive sense of achieving success–be it successful long-term relationships or professional endeavors–but rather as causing others to lose.
Sociopaths would rather win by becoming notorious for their crimes rather than famous for their achievements.
the distorted logic of sociopathy. It’s an “I win if you lose” mentality.
Perhaps a sociopath’s only fear is being unmasked as evil, because that exposes the nature of his game. As Harrison Koehli eloquently puts it, ”[Psychopaths] hang on to their masks with such conviction because they are predators, and without them, they cannot survive… To let down that facade would reveal that they are little more than unfeeling intraspecies predators that feed off the pain and suffering of others and thus destroy their chances of feeding.
Sociopaths play a very dangerous game, whereby they win by losing.

This last quote is one of the many reasons, I feel, that BS's can't understand some AP's. Who the hell thinks like that?

My FWH ended the affair 6 years before I found out. He ended it when he realized that he wasn't the one who had the control and started to fear what AP would do. He came to realize that the AP was going to destroy him. When the AP finally outed the affair (pretending to be its dead ex-husband ) and FWH admitted the truth, he told me he knew it wanted to destroy him, to ruin his life that was when he knew he had to end it. AP also wanted to hurt me. I didn't know it, never did anything to it. FWH tells me that he was fearful that AP might physically hurt me. Gee, thanks for the warning that some cray cray sociopath might be after me.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 10:00 AM, November 25th (Monday)]


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9952 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
SisterMilkshake
♀ 30024
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 10:36 AM, November 25th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

How do I let go of the overwhelming desire to stab her?
Oh, yeah, I know I have felt very stabby towards it for a long time. With time, that has become less. See the second post, last quote. If you stab the OW, OW wins.

On another site I found this and believe it is true. It is the "party line" here, too.

The sociopath’s prime objective in life is power and control. If you deny the sociopath power and control over you, you take away what he or she wants most.
The first step, of course, is No Contact.
These quotes are from the author Donna Anderson.

Not sure if your WS's AP (or your WS) is a sociopath? I found all this very interesting.

According to Martha Stout, Ph.D., author of The Sociopath Next Door*, the best clue that you are dealing with a sociopath is the pity play.

“The most reliable sign, the most universal behavior of unscrupulous people is not directed, as one might imagine, at our fearfulness,” Stout says. “It is, perversely, an appeal to our sympathy.”

The fucking cumdumpster not only played FWH, it played me, too. Before I knew that there was even an AP, but the affair was over, desperate cumdumpster, who couldn't bear to not "win" called me. Said "Don't worry, I am not after your husband, I have a boyfriend. I used to work with your husband and just wanted to catch up." Told it that husband wasn't home but I would take name and number. It then engaged me in a 45 minute conversation. It did most of the talking. It was a big old sad, woe is me pity party. By the end of the phone call I felt very sorry for this pathetic person. When FWH got home I gave him the name and number of former co-worker. I encouraged him to call the AP! I felt so sorry for it. FWH reacted strongly. Said he wasn't calling that crazy bitch and he told me not to talk to it anymore, either.
In her book, Stout also describes other techniques that a shameless sociopath will use to keep the rest of us in line. They are:

Charm
Risk-taking, and convincing others to do it with them
Recognizing a person who is decent and trusting—the perfect target
Sexual seduction
Crocodile tears—especially when sociopaths are about to be confronted
Righteous indignation—Plan B when sociopaths are about to be confronted
Exploiting social and professional roles
Gaslighting—making victims doubt their own perceptions

eta: a missing word

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 10:57 AM, November 25th (Monday)]


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9952 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
Eudaimonia
♀ 32445
Member # 32445
Default  Posted: 10:50 AM, November 25th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This completely describes 2 of WH's APs as well, but sadly it also covers WH as well-pre therapy. Has he changed? If not, he puts on one hell of a show. Most concerning though is that for several months after D-day I was accused, by his bio mom, of being a horrible person because I was NOT this way!!!! Gee, I wonder where WH got his behavior from.

A lot of WH's justification for his acting out was because I didn't "love bomb" him, I didn't treat him as he was treated by his toxic family. I treated him as an adult and gave him credit where credit was due. Apparently, that's not enough for this mentality.

As for 2 of his APs, the little that I do know is word for word what you have described. How scary is it that there seem to be so many of them walking around out there?


So long, and thanks for all the fish!

Posts: 472 | Registered: Jun 2011
Marathonwaseasy
♀ 40674
Member # 40674
Default  Posted: 11:35 AM, November 25th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ho hum

We are NC with psycho nut job OW
But she hasn't yet given up
So far we've changed fwh's number, I've blocked her on my phone and he ran away when she approached him when he was out running 2 weeks ago

What is the best thing to do if/when she reappears?

She likes drama so is police/solicitor just playing her game?

Interestingly pre discovery of SI I phoned her to have it out with her and despite a tirade of abuse from me the one thing that upset her that I said was she should grow up

Ho hum. If I have the misfortune of speaking to her again I will stick to pity and telling her to grow up I think

But seriously is the legal route sensible or adding to the fun for her?


Me BS, 41
Him WS, 45
EA and PA (PA for 11 months)
DDay 13/9/13
3 children - 15,12,3
WS has bipolar, no excuse...

"We're not broken, just bent. We can learn to love again."


Posts: 421 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Ireland
Lovedyoumore
♀ 35593
Member # 35593
Default  Posted: 11:36 AM, November 25th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Yes, yes, and yes. My husband did cheat on me and nearly destroyed me and our marriage of over 30 years. The OW is a sociopath and hit every single criteria in the article. Many people, even on SI, cannot believe that men can be so gullible, but I have a front row seat to the tragedy that a desperate, needy, sociopath can cause.

They do look for nice men who take care of their families. They look for helpful, caring men to systematically, step by step, worm their way into a relationship. They are patient as long as progress is going their way. They will take months to slowly turn the H into their best friend. They will turn the H's own words back to them to create distance with the BS, inventing problems he never knew he had. Of course at each escalation my H could have stopped everything, should have seen her for what she was doing, and to his great regret, he did not. The few times he did push back were the times she ramped up her method, turned on the tears and distress and sucked him back in.

I just recently did have an aha moment realizing it was not just winning him, it was also about beating me with her sick game. The entire A she was posting little hints about the A on Facebook and twitter knowing I would see them. I was so stupid and trusting, I never knew they were about my her and my H. I was also part of her sick little game and it makes me nauseous.

My H IC saw the sociopath for who she was and alerted my H on the first visit my H made immediately after DDay. The IC perfectly predicted her post A actions and how we should handle them. We had to both be hard NC which was so hard given her ridiculous actions. Like a vampire looking for her fix, she was desperate and relentless. We have both suffered through her taking so much from us, but on professional advice, dealing with a sociopath means not dealing a sociopath. Ever. Even though she just shows up at social functions, church, funerals, etc, we have to not engage her. We broke that one time and it was not pretty. Lots of blame, arrogance and attitude projected at me, the BS. Of course she has taken the victim role for herself, last step in the failed sociopath's plan.

God save us.


Me 52
WH 52
Married 30+ years
Together trying to R

I tell people I am tired but really my heart is broken and I am sad.


Posts: 1585 | Registered: May 2012 | From: Southern, bless your heart
Dyinghere
♀ 41313
Member # 41313
Default  Posted: 12:28 PM, November 25th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ha. The OW over here is a narcissistic sociopath.




Posts: 132 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: the inside of my head
plainpain
♀ 40139
Member # 40139
Default  Posted: 1:05 PM, November 25th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wow, this is so bang on. Sociopath. I'm going to have to read that book. Does it say how to undo them? Like, if you want to HURT them, or make them feel really, really horrible... what is the best way? Obviously, we are not going to stab them. NC is probably not going to be possible in my circumstance. I want to at least make her unhappy.

They do look for nice men who take care of their families. They look for helpful, caring men to systematically, step by step, worm their way into a relationship. They are patient as long as progress is going their way. They will take months to slowly turn the H into their best friend. They will turn the H's own words back to them to create distance with the BS, inventing problems he never knew he had. Of course at each escalation my H could have stopped everything, should have seen her for what she was doing, and to his great regret, he did not. The few times he did push back were the times she ramped up her method, turned on the tears and distress and sucked him back in.

Yes.

[This message edited by plainpain at 1:05 PM, November 25th (Monday)]


Me: Believer; 40s
Him: Liar; 40s
Married 19 years
1 year EA/2 month PA/incidental infidelities I can't begin to process
OC born 2014
OW:21
In successful R, but still in just plain pain.

Posts: 809 | Registered: Jul 2013
TheAmazingWondertwin
♀ 40769
Member # 40769
Default  Posted: 4:18 PM, November 25th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Oh wow... Pain that hit the nail in the head.
Just ... Wow.


Everyday is a new day, some good, some bad.
Me- BS 39
Him- FWS
14 years- 2 middle school children
DDay- 07-24-2013
NC broken from August 6- 24, 2013
Avalanche of Truth on November 14, 2013
Length of A: June 10th to Dday- with broken NC

Posts: 474 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: East Coast
musiclovingmom
♀ 38207
Member # 38207
Default  Posted: 5:11 PM, November 25th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

it was also about beating me with her sick game. The entire A she was posting little hints about the A on Facebook and twitter knowing I would see them. I was so stupid and trusting, I never knew they were about my her and my H. I was also part of her sick little game and it makes me nauseous.

This is exactly what OW2 did. OW5 wanted to win so badly that she outed them when my H started ignoring her. She played the pity card hard. Fortunately for me, I don't typically feed into anyone's pity party and she was no exception. OW1&5 have both tried direct contact in the last year. OW2 prefers to try to continue to 'win' by telling mutual friends what a horrible person I am. Fortunately, the people I care about, know me better than that and ask what she's talking about. She hasn't succeeded in 'winning' any of my friends either.

Posts: 1140 | Registered: Jan 2013
SisterMilkshake
♀ 30024
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 5:35 PM, November 25th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Does it say how to undo them? Like, if you want to HURT them, or make them feel really, really horrible... what is the best way?
What I think I am understanding is that there really isn't a way to undo them or hurt them. They have distorted logic, so what would hurt most non-sociopathic people won't hurt them. What we would consider their loss they view as a "win". We just ain't that fuckin' cray cray, plainpain.

I do believe *crickets* and “Living well is the best revenge” is especially true for sociopath's. AP will often block me from FB if I post something about FWH and I having fun, loving or whatever. AP fished for my FWH for 8 years. It drives AP more cray cray that it doesn't get to have contact. Nanny nanny boo boo to it!
eta:

Perhaps a sociopath’s only fear is being unmasked as evil, because that exposes the nature of his game.
The problem with this is that oftentimes it is the BS that winds up looking like the crazy one.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 7:39 AM, November 26th (Tuesday)]


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9952 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
Lovedyoumore
♀ 35593
Member # 35593
Default  Posted: 5:44 PM, November 25th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

IC says that even negative attention feeds their need. Probably spanked a little too much as a child. She is a daddy's girl, still trying to land her daddy's approval, and looking for a daddy figure lover through her manipulations.


Me 52
WH 52
Married 30+ years
Together trying to R

I tell people I am tired but really my heart is broken and I am sad.


Posts: 1585 | Registered: May 2012 | From: Southern, bless your heart
plainpain
♀ 40139
Member # 40139
Default  Posted: 5:44 PM, November 25th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sigh. Well, one can dream. I really wish I believed in karma. I guess it's a good thing to know at least I'm not cray cray. I definitely do not feel the win here.


Me: Believer; 40s
Him: Liar; 40s
Married 19 years
1 year EA/2 month PA/incidental infidelities I can't begin to process
OC born 2014
OW:21
In successful R, but still in just plain pain.

Posts: 809 | Registered: Jul 2013
Kalliopeia
♀ 35053
Member # 35053
Default  Posted: 7:42 PM, November 25th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You are fooling yourselves if you think your husbands were too silly to evade sociopathic women.

More probably, your husbands directly engaged, lied, manipulated and frankly just pissed off and hurt in a major way an OW who actually believed things would go a different direction... supported in that believe by.. your husbands.

sorry, but simply accept it. He cheated, he lied to more than you, he manipulated, schemed and flat out didn't give a crap until he was caught.

Mine did the same thing. It totally sucks. His ex who he cheated on me with and got a OC with... she was desperate, she was wanting him back. She still wants him back. She lies, she schemes.. I don't think she is a sociopath. I think he made her believe something she was already wanting to believe.

It's probably more accurate to believe that the OW is pissed off at being jerked around and used and wants to inflict some damage back or actually loved the guy because he convinced it was real love and she doesn't want to give it up because that simply makes her someone who was misled, used, betrayed and a flat out dumass.

[This message edited by Kalliopeia at 7:44 PM, November 25th (Monday)]


Posts: 478 | Registered: Mar 2012
Nest2007
♀ 39532
Member # 39532
Default  Posted: 8:59 PM, November 25th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

THIS.

"They do look for nice men who take care of their families. They look for helpful, caring men to systematically, step by step, worm their way into a relationship. They are patient as long as progress is going their way. They will take months to slowly turn the H into their best friend. They will turn the H's own words back to them to create distance with the BS, inventing problems he never knew he had. Of course at each escalation my H could have stopped everything, should have seen her for what she was doing, and to his great regret, he did not. The few times he did push back were the times she ramped up her method, turned on the tears and distress and sucked him back in."

It's like describing H's EA and five day PA to a t. And that list. It is GSMTP in every way.

Incredibly frustrating to know I can't hurt her, can't exact any revenge, as it all feeds her sociopathy. Terrifying. And he invited this into our marriage.


BS 35
WS 31
DD, only child
DDay: 06/09/13
End of TT/Full Disclosure 07/08/13

Reconciling. A stronger marriage now.

Psalm 37. It rocks my world. So does 140. Big guy upstairs has got it all figured out.


Posts: 230 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: Here and there...
looking forward
♀ 25238
Member # 25238
Default  Posted: 9:02 PM, November 25th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

They don’t view “winning” in the positive sense of achieving success–be it successful long-term relationships or professional endeavors–but rather as causing others to lose.

He (and I) caused my H unimaginable pain and heartache.
He failed, though, because my H is a winner.

Sociopaths play a very dangerous game, whereby they win by losing.

OM is dead. Ergo, he lost.

Perhaps a sociopath’s only fear is being unmasked as evil, because that exposes the nature of his game.

He was unmasked quite publicly.

The sociopath’s prime objective in life is power and control. If you deny the sociopath power and control over you, you take away what he or she wants most.

Unfortunately, I never realized this. I thought I was the one with the power and control, and, no, I am not a sociopath.

In her book, Stout also describes other techniques that a shameless sociopath will use to keep the rest of us in line. They are:
Charm The OM most definitely oozed this!

Risk-taking, and convincing others to do it with them I call it manipulating.

Recognizing a person who is decent and trusting—the perfect target That was me ~ set me up perfectly at age 18, a very young and naïve 18 year old.

Sexual seduction This was what he did - called it getting experience.
Crocodile tears—especially when sociopaths are about to be confronted
Righteous indignation—Plan B when sociopaths are about to be confronted
Exploiting social and professional roles Oh yes, he was our lawyer and H's BF

Gaslighting—making victims doubt their own perceptions Is there a term for having no perception? I couldn't doubt what I didn't know or understand.

[This message edited by looking forward at 10:04 AM, November 26th (Tuesday)]


Memory and hope; one looks backward, and the other forward; one is of today, the other of tomorrow.
"Find a place inside where there's joy, and the joy will burn out the pain." (Joseph Campbell)

Posts: 2855 | Registered: Aug 2009 | From: Where a river runs through it
SisterMilkshake
♀ 30024
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 9:07 PM, November 25th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Kalliopeia, you are entitled to your opinion, and this may not apply in your situation. It doesn't apply to all. However, there are sociopaths out there. 4% of the population is thought to be sociopathic. Odds are that some of the AP's (or our WS's) are sociopaths.

My FWH told AP that he wasn't going to ever leave me, that this was strictly NSA FWB's sex and AP agreed. He never led it to believe that he loved it. However, AP called him the "Love of Its Life". (See fourth quote in first post.) Granted, I only know what he told me. OTOH, you don't know anything about us personally IRL. I imagine I would be the better judge of what is going on in our situation than you would be.

You are fooling yourselves if you think your husbands were too silly to evade sociopathic women.
Many a "wise" person has been fooled by a sociopath, and not just talking about infidelity. I certainly don't feel my FWH was "too silly" to evade a sociopathic woman. I don't feel any of the posters on this thread said that their WS wasn't 100% responsible for their choice to fuck the sociopathic AP.

The point I was making was that my FWH had an affair with a sociopath.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 9:11 PM, November 25th (Monday)]


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9952 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
SisterMilkshake
♀ 30024
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 9:39 PM, November 25th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I thought I was the one with the power and control, and, no, I am not a sociopath.
My FWH thought this, too, looking forward. He was quite shocked and fearful when he realized he had no control. Yes, than AP had the control because he was afraid that it was going to tell me, but AP never said this overtly. He actually had to force himself to fuck the AP for longer than he wanted to (poor guy!) because he was trying to wean it off his amazing magical penis.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9952 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
naivewife
♀ 38375
Member # 38375
Default  Posted: 9:52 PM, November 25th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Yep, OW was a sociopath here too, right down to the parasitic lifestyle and the degree in medicine to appear caring and gain easy access to sick, vulnerable people. She spent copious amounts of time in our home and I guess the one thing I can pat myself on the back for is that I'm not a good sociopath target. I just could not be charmed by her, no matter how hard she tried. I watched WH fall into her trap, and others in our life did the same, but I just found her to be ridiculous. I guess my intuition was strong enough to see she was disordered, but not strong enough to see what was actually going on pretty much right in front of my eyes.


D-day #1 - 1/23/13
false R, then...
D-day #2 - 3/26/13
I will come for the benefit of the sick, remaining free of all intentional injustice, of all mischief and in particular of sexual relations with both female and male persons. - Hippocratic Oath

Posts: 342 | Registered: Feb 2013
Topic Posts: 42
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