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Notdaniel posted 12/18/2013 21:24 PM

Had our counseling today and wife indicated that she wants me to say i'm sorry and beg and grovel to show I want to be with her. Through counseling, I realized that when I am emotional an do apologize and breakdown, although she isn't moved by it she still needs to see it.

I am not sure I know how to grovel. I think the idea is that if I need help in doing that then I am not sincere but honestly, I looked up the definition and I am not quite sure what to do. I am sincere, but what exactly does she mean? Get on my knees in public? (She isn't into public displays). Kissing her feet? IDK

Jrazz posted 12/18/2013 21:38 PM

I think that groveling is much too demeaning, under any circumstances. My hope is that what your BW really wants is a display of humility.

When animals roll on their back to indicate submission, the key physical indicator is that they are offering their underbelly as a sign that the person they are gesturing to has the power to take advantage of, or even kill them.

As a human in civilized society, it seems a bit overboard to actually make that kind of physical gesture. (ie crawl, kiss feet, beg)

Instead, maybe show her some emotional vulnerability. Tell her what you are afraid of. Tell her secrets about yourself that you've never told anyone else for fear of embarrassment. This may help her feel like you are aware of her deep emotional pain and humiliation, and show her that you are willing to join her.

[This message edited by Jrazz at 9:39 PM, December 18th (Wednesday)]

mchercheur posted 12/18/2013 21:51 PM

I am a BW. No stop sign, so I hope its ok if I reply & that you don't mind.
One issue that we BSs deal with is that we are 2nd choice.
What I want from my WH is for him to acknowledge specifically what he did, how much it hurt me & our kids,& that I still deal with the pain every day, & to acknowledge that he appreciates that I am giving him a 2nd chance, because that is not easy for me to do. And that our marriage is his #1 priority & he will do anything to heal it, help me heal, & specifically that he will work on looking at himself so that he can become the person he wants to be.
That's all.

plainpain posted 12/18/2013 22:55 PM

I'm sorry for your pain.

I'm a BS, and I do agree that literal 'grovelling' is really not helpful for anyone. What is grovelling? Think lying on the floor with your arms wrapped around her legs begging, 'Please, please don't leave me'. That's grovelling. Don't ever do that. Don't kiss her feet.

For me, a lot of what I still struggle with is the fear that my WH will leave me. He cheated on me, and I'm the one worried he'll leave. That's SO humiliating, on top of the overwhelming humiliation the A already caused me. He can devastate me, and I still want him. That's hard to live with. I spend a lot of time wondering where I left my dignity.

He already demonstrated loud and clear to the both of us that he could exchange me for someone else if he wanted to. There's another woman out there madly in love with him, nursing a broken heart - she would snap him up in a minute. He's stamped and validated. Me? Not so much.

So, our R is scary for me because there is still the feeling that I have to make sure he doesn't regret 'picking me'. I am always aware that OW was fun, didn't make him feel bad about himself, didn't make demands on him to communicate more effectively, etc. R is hard work, and I am always asking myself, 'Is he going to think it's worth it? Am I really worth it to him?'

For my WH to express to me his own awareness that HE is really the one who should (hypothetically) be 'begging me to stay', and that he is grateful that I am giving him an opportunity to show true remorse and try to repair the damage, is very, very helpful.

My WH and I had this conversation early after D-day. I said, 'I want you to ask me to stay!' He said, 'Do you want to leave?' I said, 'No! But I want you to ASK me not to leave. I want to know that, if I wanted to leave, you would ask me to stay.'

For whatever that's worth.

Morhurt posted 12/19/2013 00:33 AM

Ditto what Plainpain said.

Also, it helped when my H said " I will do anything to keep you. I will do everything in my power to help you trust me again.", that type of thing.
No matter what, you have to mean it. Words are just words if they're not followed through with actions.

cantaccept posted 12/19/2013 07:15 AM

Literal groveling is demeaning. I agree with what every one else said, especially plainpain. That feeling of humiliation, being second choice.

My wh chose not to show me his vulnerability. He chose not to help me to heal.

He is moving out next Thursday.

What plainpain sad about "is it worth it to him?".

This, this is what almost hurts worse than the affair and abandonment. The confirmation that I was not worth it to him to be faithful and now I am not worth it to him to make the effort. It is heartbreaking.

Do whatever it takes, show her you feelings, show how grateful you are that you didn't loose her. Show her that she means more to you than anything. Express your remorse, it really does help. Do it over and over until it becomes a part of her heart.

Good luck to you both, I hope you can repair.

Can

Aubrie posted 12/19/2013 07:56 AM

Piling on.

There is a huge difference in opening yourself up, dropping your walls, and showing your vulnerability, and literal groveling.

Here's my question. If she means that she wants you to literally grovel, what are your boundaries on that?

knightsbff posted 12/19/2013 08:15 AM

I agree with PPs that literal groveling isn't healthy. But I make sure to express to my BH frequently that I feel lucky and blessed to still be with him. I thank him for his gift of R. I talk to him about the strength and grace it must take for him to be working on this with me. Every bit of it is sincere and he can feel that. I can tell it helps him when I express these thoughts to him. It lets him know how much I truly appreciate and love him and it lets him know I think about it all the time too. I express these things at random times when something brings the thoughts to mind that if not for my incredible BH I would be very lonely and missing him right now or that we would be dealing with sharing our kids time. Those thoughts come on their own. It helps him if I share them rather than keeping them to myself.

TattoodChinaDoll posted 12/19/2013 08:45 AM

Please please please don't mistake "groveling is demeaning" for don't show remorse. I think those questions you asked us is what you should ask her. Is crawling on your hands and knees with a tray on your back with a cup of tea for her and then letting her use you as a footstool what she means by groveling? I'm going to bet that though she may have those ideas, that is not what she means. Have you seen your BW collapse on the floor with the enormity of what happened? Not being able to talk or move...feeling like her whole body is being sucked into itself from the pain of a heart being stabbed a million times? I think (again maybe she does mean she wants to use you a a footstool) that is what she wants to see you do. Be so affected by her pain that you collapse. Not because you are sad for yourself. But because you are torn apart for her. Because seeing her in pain causes you pain. I think she wants true empathy.

watersofavalon posted 12/19/2013 08:46 AM

"One issue that we BSs deal with is that we are 2nd choice. "

Quite.

I would hate my H to grovel, to me or anyone. But he is so emotionally self-controlled that it was hard to be to beleive he wanted to stay - he said it again and again and when the words left his lips I beleived them, but the belief faded again. I thought he was just saying what I wanted to hear - I felt tears and a display of emotion would help. Worse thing was that once just after dday his voice broke when talking about his OW - I couldn't get that out of my head.

Until I realised that I had no reason to disbeleive him, no reason to think he didn't want to be with me, no words or actions since dday have given me reason to disbeleive him. So I decided to beleve what he said and did and stop paying attention to what I imagined he was thinking.

I think that is what all BS have to do eventually. But for that they need to be utterly convinced their wayward is genuinely remorseful. Once you have reached that point who needs grovelling?

watersofavalon posted 12/19/2013 08:48 AM

Also agree with chinadoll - she wants to know you feel her pain and feel remorse for being the cause.

Daisy1967 posted 12/19/2013 11:13 AM

I would not grovel for anyone or anything.

To me it is demeaning and abusive to expect someone to do that.

brokeback posted 12/19/2013 11:37 AM

What does groveling show? That you are remorseful? That you are sincere? Your wife should know when you look in her eyes and by the sound of your voice and actions that you are sincere and full of remorse and ready to mend your broken marriage. Groveling shows nothing - to me asking for you to grovel is her part to control you and your process. There is a lot of healing that needs to take place - and groveling for forgiveness will not make her feel healed or happy, I bet. We all make mistakes. Ask for forgiveness, be honest with yourself and your spouse moving forward, own your your own behavior and promise to work on yourself and recommit to her, but DO NOT grovel. Good luck to your and your wife.

HopeImOverIt posted 12/19/2013 13:54 PM

Had our counseling today and wife indicated that she wants me to say i'm sorry and beg and grovel to show I want to be with her.

Did your wife actually use the word "grovel"? Or is this your interpretation of what you think she is asking for?

I ask because I noticed you used the word "indicated" as opposed to "said". Maybe I'm reading too much into the difference, but it's a phrasing that is open to mean either "said" or "led me to believe".

My Ex accused me of wanting him to grovel when I said no such thing. I was looking only for sincere remorse.

WalkinOnEggshelz posted 12/19/2013 15:21 PM

and wife indicated that she wants me to say i'm sorry and beg and grovel to show I want to be with her.

Ok, so she indicated this? Or did she say this word for word? This particular post strikes me, as I wrote something very similar early on in our R process. The problem can be perception and how you may be interpreting what she is looking for.

Here is what I wrote back in 2010, just 3 months after DDay:

Today he texted me to tell me that he wanted a "wordy apology specifically for the A" on a daily basis. I am really struggling with this because I feel that the apologies are several and in our natural discussion about the A. I am very concerned that if I set aside a time each day to deliver a "wordy apology" I will not sound sincere. Being sincere in all of this is very important to me. So I feel that if there were a time I didn't sound sincere enough or wordy enough or forget that day, that is just another reason to get upset with me.

I also wrote,

I am going to be remorseful for the rest of my life, but I am worried that I am going to need to grovel for the rest of it too. If I can't be that person, if I what I have to offer is never going to be enough, what does that mean for our future.

Sound a little familiar?

These are direct quotes. I am sharing them with you not only to express an understanding for what you are saying but also to demonstrate that sometimes our perception or interpretation of what is happening isn't always reality. Later on in that very same thread, my BH came on to express what was actually said, which it turns out was much more than him asking me for a "wordy apology".

This is what he said:

"I love you to. I've been thinking about something. It might sound accusatory but I don"t mean it to be. And it might sound like I'm mad but I'm not mad. And I might be wrong or failing to remember and if so please feel free to tell me.... I'm just trying to remember the last time you apologized specifically to me about the whole A. I mean a wordy apology specifically for the A. I'm not sure when that was. I think I'd like it as a sort of daily thing. Like the cards you give me each week for my sobriety. Again not mad not accusatory just thinking"

The one part that I had grasped onto, the one part that I heard was the wordy apology on a daily basis. When in reality, what he was desperately looking for was something to make him feel better about the situation he was in. Something to show him that I was all in and committed to R. Something to help stop some of the pain he was in.

Honestly, he had no idea specifically what he was looking for, other than a time machine. But he was grasping at any idea that might help at the time. And at that time I had these ebbs and flows where I would demonstrate my remorse well. But unfortunately those times were more reactionary vs. proactive. He would be having a hard time and I would step up my game. Things would be good and I would relax. Wash, rinse, repeat.

One of the things he needed from me was to know that I thought about my A as much as he did. That I was working towards making out M a safe place for the both of us. He needed me to share my thoughts with him. Rather than wait for me to take his cue. He needed me to be vulnerable with him.

So when your wife indicates that she wants you to beg and grovel, consider the fact that she may not really know what she wants or needs from you at this point in time and is willing to try anything to help ease the pain she is in. Or you can be interpreting what she is saying differently than what she truly intends. But unless you talk to her and listen to everything she has to say, you may never know. Don't just hold on to the bits and pieces that suit you.


SisterMilkshake posted 12/19/2013 15:46 PM

It was quite humiliating for me to know my FWH was fucking OW for 4 years. It was quite demeaning for me to realize that he was humiliating me to this person who wanted to destroy our family. I am so humiliated that he would let OW think that it had something better than me that my FWH could get from OW that he couldn't from me. That he was choosing to spend time with OW over me. It is humiliating to me to know others knew about it and I didn't.

IDK, if FWH was to get on his knees and sincerely beg for forgiveness I feel that would mean something to me. Yes, I did desire that after d-day. I wanted him on his knees begging me for forgiveness. I wanted him to be weeping. Maybe even some snot bubbles would have helped.That he would humble himself in such a way would speak volumes to me as we are all prideful to some degree. No, I wouldn't want him to lie on the ground like a worm and writhe around begging for forgiveness, that would make me feel worse, I believe, or laugh.

I would simply ask your BW exactly what she means by groveling. Tell her you are willing to do whatever it takes but you need to understand exactly what that is.

sunnyrain posted 12/19/2013 16:57 PM

^ voicing my objection to the above post.

Although there was no stop sign, I feel SM's post is inappropriate/harsh for the wayward forum.

SisterMilkshake posted 12/19/2013 17:02 PM

Really, sunnyrain? Please point out what you feel was inappropriate or harsh.

MissesJai posted 12/19/2013 17:10 PM

SM's post is inappropriate/harsh for the wayward forum
As a wayward, I disagree. I see nothing wrong with her post, whatsoever. She was honest about her experience and shared her perspective. I've seen MUCH worse in this forum from BS's.

sunnyrain posted 12/19/2013 17:34 PM

It was quite humiliating for me to know my FWH was fucking OW for 4 years. It was quite demeaning for me to realize that he was humiliating me to this person who wanted to destroy our family. I am so humiliated that he would let OW think that it had something better than me that my FWH could get from OW that he couldn't from me. That he was choosing to spend time with OW over me. It is humiliating to me to know others knew about it and I didn't.

imo, the above is unnecessary. To me, it sounds like a BW venting over WH/OW. There are plenty of places here at SI for a BW to vent and use ugly language about a WS/OW.

It rubbed me the wrong way. I don't believe it belongs in the wayward forum, and I spoke up for myself.

I accept that others disagree.

[This message edited by sunnyrain at 5:35 PM, December 19th (Thursday)]

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