We all know this kind of talk is counterproductive to recovery, but they are his honest feelings, and we've been told that a person's feelings aren't wrong. Since we've agreed to reconciliation, he's self admittedly has had one foot out the door the whole time while in recovery, and he's been honest about that too. We've been in IC and MC for 17 months, and we go religiously.
I'm responsible for his pain and sadness and anger as I had an 18 month "love" affair with his best friend in which I got caught. Additionally, I won't let my H go b/c I do truly love him, and I want to make some right for my wrong to him, and I continue to do the work of a WS. The fact that I won't let him go pains him more.
Yes, he's on SI. He reads, but hasn't posted in quite sometime, and, honestly, I haven't posted in awhile either. But I think we both should.
He says I shouldn't expect him or anyone to get through something like this staying as a married couple, and that I should do the right thing and walk away from him and our M.
Everyone is different and he's made so much progress, but his feelings are those that I described. Am I really expecting too much? I keep saying to him that all the research says recovery takes at least 2-5 years and at most the rest of your lives depending on your definition of recovery.
Let me ask you, does he ever tell you he loves you? Does he show you he cares? Ask him what would make him feel love from you and do it. Is he willing to work with you at all? Do you go on dates? Have you read 5 love languages? Thats a good book for meeting each others needs.
he continues to feel and tell me that he no longer loves me, that he will never love me, that he doesn't care for me, that he hates me, and that he can never be happy with me again and that he longs to love someone again..anyone, but me
Am I really expecting too much? I keep saying to him that all the research says recovery takes at least 2-5 years and at most the rest of your lives depending on your definition of recovery
Recovery takes 2-5 years if both spouses want to recover. You have someone that doesn't, apparently. Recovery isn't to see if you can love your spouse again. Recovery is trying to work it out because you still love your spouse. You are trying to recover from the hurt.
May I ask, if this is how he feels, why is he agreeing to a recovery attempt? It's been 13 months and he's still saying he is absolutely not interested. Has he said he wants to leave?
he continues to feel and tell me that he no longer loves me, that he will never love me, that he doesn't care for me, that he hates me, and that he can never be happy with me again and that he longs to love someone again..anyone, but me.
The fact that I won't let him go pains him more.
This is hard. As a BS he can have these feelings, and these feelings are normal. He could still be feeling in limbo - or he could realize that it was a deal-breaker and he genuinely needs to leave, in which case that has to be a decision you both respect.
At the same time, has he taken any ownership of his WS status? Wasn't he going around with this same "best friend" and hooking up with other girls? He says he wants to "love" someone again… How is his relationship with "love" in light of his own cheating? How does he knew he's not going to become a wayward again to someone else, or to you again if you guys stay together?
Frankly, while I get that your choices hurt him, and it sounds like you are owning that - his cheating choices beforehand don't exactly seem very loving either.
Do you get the sense, when he says that he can never be happy with you again, that he is asking for a way out? Or is he venting? If he would want to leave, then even though you're wanting to R, it sounds like you would need to respect his choice. I'm so sorry. Though it also sounds like he wants you to be the one who walks away… No. If he wants it to be over, then he needs to make the choice to walk, not wait for you to do it.
He, in turn, needs to decide. Is he all in (in which case, he needs to pull his foot back in), is he all out (in which case, he needs to make a solid decision around that), is he solidly in limbo - in which case, own that and be honest about that.
What are you working on right now, individually?
we've been told that a person's feelings aren't wrong.
Hmm. Not sure what to make about this line. Sure people have "wrong" feelings. Or rather, feelings are not a great gauge of reality. Many waywards think they "love" their APs and come to realize, no -- it was just infatuation. I have been deluded into feeling all kinds of things in my life -- I mean, feelings aren't wrong in the sense that we have them, but how much weight we give them is up to us. Feelings are like clouds in the sky - they come and go. I can love my H with all my being, and be devastated with pain thinking about him the next. Which one is "real?"
So, I don't know - you paint a pretty bleak picture of your marriage right now. What does it mean that it pains him that you won't let him go? Do you sense that these things are true -- that he "hates" you? Or are these things he throws up in moments of anger? What is his day-to-day persona like?
Also, when were his affairs over?
I feel reconciliation means different things to different people.
Since we've agreed to reconciliation, he's self admittedly has had one foot out the door the whole time while in recovery
Am I really expecting too much? I
He says I shouldn't expect him or anyone to get through something like this staying as a married couple
eta: didn't notice you were madhatters. How do you feel about his affairs? Has he owned his shit?
[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 2:36 PM, December 19th (Thursday)]
"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson
Additionally, I won't let my H go b/c I do truly love him, and I want to make some right for my wrong to him, and I continue to do the work of a WS. The fact that I won't let him go pains him more.
You are being selfish. Let him go. If you really love him, let him go. You know by staying with you he is hurting even more but because you "love" him you won't let him go. Do you not see how that is all about how YOU feel?
In the scheme of things, it's not that long since Dday. As a BS, it was at least two years before I started to really feel more positive about my WS. And you both have to deal with being the BS and the WS......can't imagine how tough it all is while trying to raise a family.
Time helps as it gives us the space needed to work through the pain and the shock to get to our true feelings, but as someone else said both parties have to be committed.....
Wishing you and your family peace and hope you both find your way.
..staying for now because it's still comfortable and can see his kids and still get the sex.. but as others have posted, he doesn't sound 'committed' to the marriage..
..if he actually met someone, would he then make the move to S/D..???
..you say you won't let him go!!! is your H just not strong/determined enough to go?
.. judging from the things he's saying to you, it seems very cruel and unfeeling of him.. you shouldn't have to endure that kind of treatment.
..hope you can both get on the same page with healing..
However, discovering his affair made me take a hard look at myself, him, and our relationship and if we really, really committed to working on ourselves and our M, maybe we could find each other again.
I wonder what kind of "love" your husband is looking for? As we all know, the fantasy "love" of an A is just that, fantasy.
Also, since you are both in C, what does your therapist say about his attitude?
He, in turn, needs to decide. Is he all in (in which case, he needs to pull his foot back in), is he all out (in which case, he needs to make a solid decision around that), is he solidly in limbo - in which case, own that and be honest about that
Like Silver said, why is he asking you to leave when you are willing and committed to R? If he is that unhappy and miserable why is he staying?
C1131716 - ty…Its' hard to hear, but maybe it's a false R. He has made a lot of process, but you may be right. I like to be hopeful and think he's doing the best he can. Also I'm being selfish that is true. I'm fighting for my H and my M, but I have both feet planted in R. However, maybe I need to take a rep back and think about what you said. I've heard many times here you have to be willing to let your M go to save it or for each party to heal properly. Ty..something to think about.
IGaveItMy All - I agree about divorce. It's painful too. He has never told me that he loves me since d-day. He has told me that he used to love me. His actions and the fact that he is still here does show me that he cares. Sometimes I see the H I knew b4 this mess unraveled. He feels he is working with me. We go out alone & with friends. He keeps planning events and vacations so to say, "well he have to stay together for 3 more months b/c we have that vaca coming up alone or with the kids…"to me this his one of the ways he's trying. I read the love languages book and we took the test and it and it was helpful.
Trial sep? - After d-day, he left for about 4 months, did his own thing..we spook every day about everything, including our A's and all…a very raw time. He decided he would give us a chance at R and his reasons were better for kids, better financially, and of court for our 20+ year relationship. At the time after d-day, we told our kids we were getting a D (probably a mistake) so now he doesn't want to separate unless he's 100% sure..and I understand that. He wants to try and do all that he can before that happens as do I..that is y we r both working so hard.
Painfulpast - It might be a deal breaker for him. R takes 2-5 years so I feel in R you gotta give 150% but both spouses have to want to R. I truly feel he wants to R, he's just not sure if he can. I like what you said: R isn't to see if you can love your spouse again. R is trying to work it out b/c you still love your spouse.
Silverhopes - Yes our situation is complicated b/c of MH status, and yes my H had many affairs with his best friend as you said. He has been in limbo from the start of R and I lknew that all along as he was honest about that and I'm trying to respect that. I will continue to own what I did and do the work as a WS no matter the outcome.He has taken ownership. He feels that since his A's were just sex with no EA that it's a fraction of that I did. He feels he had a charmed life before everything came out. I think sometimes he's just venting hen he says he will never be happy with me again, but I feel there's a lot of truth to that as well…sadly. I agree with you that for R to really be effective a person has to be all in so to speak. I continue to settle for his limbo status as I'm prettified of losing him as I really do love him. He has owned his limbo status, and I'm trying to respect it. I'm working on trying to heal and understand my wayward ways. And I have been really trying to help him in any way that I can, but he claims there is nothing I can do or say. So maybe C1131716 is right..idk.
Bionicgal - I like what you said…our feelings are how much weight e give them.
Sistermilkshake - Maybe this isn't reconciliation. I do feel he has a wall up which is understandable and yes I agree that he is staying detached emotionally. I actually feel he has always had a wall up. The counselors say a person must be vulnerable for R to be effective. He's afraid to be vulnerable and I get that.
I have to go yo my son's game so I apologize for errors and all. Ty all again..Any further response would be appreciated.
Recovery takes 2-5 years of experience and work. What progress has your H made?
I don't think you're in R, either. It takes 2, and he isn't on board. That could work fine if he's willing to work on your M until he decides between R & D, but it doesn't sound like he is working on your M - in fact, he's saying things to you that sound abusive to me. Even if they're not abusive, they're counterproductive for R.
IMO, you've related your H's thoughts, not feelings (because feelings are mad, sad, glad, scared, and love in my system). It's relatively easy to change one's thinking. Does your H show any desire to do that?
You want R. My advice is: stay true to yourself - keep working for R.
If your H wants D, IMO it's up to him to file.
Has your MC or IC mentioned the Drama Triangle to you? It sounds like your H is stuck in the Victim position, and you need to get off the Drama Triangle to R. If the Cs haven't mentioned the DT, maybe you need new Cs.
[This message edited by sisoon at 5:19 PM, December 19th (Thursday)]
He feels that since his A's were just sex with no EA that it's a fraction of that I did.
That's not owning it. That's minimizing it.
I say that regardless of whatever happens with your M, he has NOT done the work on himself as a wayward. I would see that as a very big problem.
How is he about supporting your struggles as a BS?
Life is not measured by the breaths we take
but by the moments that take our breath away.
The fact that I won't let him go pains him more
If your WH really wanted to be away from you; and IF he really wanted to divorce you....
He's a grown man - and he could simply leave, file for a divorce and be done with you and his marriage.
Personally - I question:
WHY do you want to remain married to a man who treats you this way...who talks to you this way?
I can understand being alone; but I hate being with someone and feeling lonely.
What you write says to me that your H is firmly planted on the Drama Triangle, switching from Victim (poor unloved BS) to Persecutor (minimizing WS). IMO, he will not be a good candidate for R until he gets off the DT.
He needs to feel his feelings as a BS and let them go, and he needs to take responsibility for his As and make changes so that he never betrays anybody again. Instead, he's holding onto his BS feelings and minimizing his own problems/failings.
You need to feel your feelings about being betrayed, too. I don't minimize the horror of your cheating; you have to deal with that and change. But you still feel the grief, anger, and fear of being cheated on, and you need to process those feelings.
I suggest searching the web on 'karpman drama triangle' and asking about it in a joint session. If your H's IC doesn't pick up on it, I'd ask why he doesn't think it's relevant.