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Well I guess I'm back to square one! Awesome!

Almost 5 months from Dday 1, what I though would be the only dday. The only affair, the only ONS. Oh, how wrong I was! I read the thread about ONS with prostitutes & it said something to the effect of "if your WS says they saw 3 prostitutes, just multiply it by 10 and you might have the truth. I guess there's a good chance that's where I'm at.
I had a gut feeling about another 'trip' he took. He went out of town and I met him a day later. Things just didn't feel right, and they weren't. Although he hasn't outright admitted it, he didn't need to. All the Lying signs were there. He didn't deny it, then it was followed by silence, etc. After 12 years of marriage you can tell an outright lie pretty quickly.
Today he's not 'denying' it, but he's not admitting it either. He keeps telling me to send him the proof. Like he doesn't want to admit to anything I don't have solid proof for.
I don't feel like these 2 incidents are the only ones I'm afraid there are several more!

He's got some work issues going on, so I told him I would consider asking him to move out until the work issues were worked out so it didn't add to the issues. Although at this point I'm not sure why I care!!! He clearly doesn't care.

I told him at Dday 1, 5 months ago, that if there were any other skeletons in the closet, now was the time to drag them out! If they came out months later, it would be an entirely different story. He assured me he made 1 mistake and that was it!! I've given him that option several times over the last 5 months and he's given me the same story over and over! Lies on top of lies!

I said he could stay in the house but I would not sleep with a liar. He was not welcome in our bed.

Then tonight, shit hit the fan. I kinda lost it. Begged him for the truth. Asked him if I was worth the truth, clearly I'm not. (I have FOO issues) He still refuses, his attitude is shitty. Entitled, cocky, pissed off, depressed. Said it doesn't matter now, it's over. He's fucked it up, so it doesn't matter what he says, I won't believe him, marriage is ruined, he's lost my trust (no shit), no point...... blah blah blah. He's been stonewalling all day. Rugsweeping for 5 months.

I'm so frustrated, confused, heartbroken...........
Trying to figure out how to get the truth out of him
I though for awhile we were in R! Until I started investigating and realized that there was more.....

This is more of a rant than anything else... if you have wisdom, I'm open. Thanks for listening!!

(((FoggedIn))) My H pulled the same "show me the proof" crap on me. He even accused me of making up stuff so I could "frame" him! WTF???!!! Blameshifting, stonewalling, lying, denying, and then the pity party meant to throw you on the defensive "it doesn't matter what I say, you won't believe me and you don't trust me".... Heard it all too! I'm sorry I don't have any answers, but I've been in your shoes. Hugs...

I understand your need to know although you have (it seems) decided to end your marriage.

I knew I wanted evidence as I knew ex would gaslight to the end of his days.

I put both a VAR in his car and a GPS tracker.

48 hours was enough to have the hard evidence of him picking up ow at work driving to her apartment and spending the whole night there.

I also got hold of old mobile phone records which showed hundreds of texts.

If you do obtain proof I would not give him a copy and not tell him your sources. My ex is still convinced that I had him followed "by secret agents who are in high places"!!!!!!!

😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀

Quite where he thought I would have found such contacts is beyond me!!!!!

Just goes to show the level of their fog.

Good luck and I understand the need to know and in a way "shame" them and give others the truth and not their version of events.

[This message edited by timeforchange at 1:04 AM, December 30th (Monday)]

What's hard about locating proof at this point is I'm fairly sure it's not currently happening. His ONS were with prostitutes out of town & I've refused to allow him to leave town without me since DDay. He knows I have the password to his yahoo account, so if he's using CL again, he's clearly created another email account (he actually had 2, deleted the other, I made him reactivate do I could see the contents..... It was empty, surprise surprise!). He's not doing anything inappropriate on his laptop, I have spyware installed. I can't monitor his iPhone, it's his work phone :(. And previously he was also doing some of this activity on his work computer, which I don't have access to either. :(.
If I could get full access to his work computer & jail break his iPhone, I'm afraid I'd probably find more than I wanted to!!
More email addresses, CL stalking, proof of other ONS. But that's not an option.
He's refused a poly & on full shut down.
Honestly if he was a broken man right now I might feel differently about the possibility of our M. But he's not broken at all. He arrogant and pissed.

(((Fogged)))

I am so sorry that you are dealing with this. It hurts so incredibly bad. But now you know. You know he isn't remorseful, he isn't willing to open up and do the hard work of R. He is only putting his needs as desires first.

So now it's time for you to protect and care for yourself. You can do this, and you need to do this. It's time to make you a priority. It's time to protect yourself. Without him having some severe consequences for his actions your hope of getting any truth from him is slim to none. His arrogant, non remorseful self tells you he doesn't get it. Even if he did come to you today and he bared his soul would you then believe you have it all? Would you see it as truth? I am betting not. The one thing you know for sure is that he is a liar that lies.

See a lawyer, get STD tested (again if you already did), and 180 hard.

((((and strength)))

fogged, I'm so sorry. I'm walking in those shoes 10 months out and I don't really have advice but, I'm going to tell you what I wish I had done when I found out about my husband's use of prostitutes.

My H left his email open on a computer I rarely use. That's when I found the correspondence with all the skanky hookers from CL & Backpage where he was arranging his "appointments". He only admitted to exactly what I had evidence of. Not.one.thing.more. Initially he said that he had only been with one of them...twice. After days of questioning and pleading for the truth, he went on to say that he felt like he was somehow disappointing me by not having any more to tell. Oh, there was more but, it took almost 4 months before he finally admitted to having paid sex going back some 15 years.

During those four months, I died a little each day. I kept thinking that if I showed him compassion and understanding that he would break down and tell me everything. Wrong again. To this day I only have an approxiate body count.

From what I have read about men who use prostitutes is that there is a common thread among them. They tend to be very self centered, entitled, expert liars and master manipulators.

I wish I had gone NC with him and had him served and waited until he decided to give up the answers to everything I wanted to know but, I was so scared of losing every thing in one fail swoop. I tried to be kind and "nice" him back to sanity. The vets on here say that this tactic doesn't work and I now know that to be true.

Our R has been very rocky and because of the deceit and lies I have slowly begun to detach and my committment to R is ebbing. Every day that goes by I can't help but wonder what more is out there that I should know but, at this rate, never will.

outtanowhere

How did you get him to admit to more than sex twice with the same hooker?

I feel like I missed his 'window of honesty' in the initial days after discovery 5 months ago. He had a brief moment where I felt like he was very honest about his 'ONS' with the hooker. Gave me gross details I asked for, answered questions, etc. But it only lasted a day or two. Of course now I'm aware some of that honesty was not honesty at all. When he said he felt sick after she left and actually threw up. Well that was all BS, he was very familiar with how it felt when a hooker left his hotel & I'm certain he didn't feel sick at all!

But at the time, I believed him. Although I did ask if there were any others. He swore there weren't and I didn't dig any further. Although my gut said otherwise, I wanted to believe him. I had these intense hysterical love feelings that I couldn't silence at the time.

He quickly slammed the honesty door, moved from the "how can I help you heal" to "I'm doing everything right, why are you still broken" phase. I kept digging, put together a timeline for every time he left town in the last year, then dug through emails, text messages, my own memory for every detail I could find for trips. That's when it all started to unravel. Hookers on top of hookers!

But I desperately need him to come clean about it! He cannot continue to ride this story about 1 hooker. He wouldn't even admit to that one even while I stood staring at make up smeared all over the sheets that were stained with cum! It took me finding the emails in his sent box to her that he forgot to delete.

And you are right about.

They tend to be very self centered, entitled, expert liars and master manipulators.

I'm so glad you replied to my post!!! Thank you for commenting, I'm grateful! Not grateful someone is/has gone through what I am, but grateful for your wisdom!
XO

fogged, I appreciate your comments however, I'm a real novice at this. My heros are over on the I Can Relate forum on the Spouses/Partners of Sex Addicts thread. They are the ones who have helped me retain what little sanity I have left.

I don't know what prompted the semi confession. We were in counseling within days of the discovery and the C was really good. She nailed him as SA on the second visit and he started weekly SA meetings shortly after that.

I believe that I got that much because he was really afraid that I was going to kick his ass to the curb, which as I said, I wish I had. He told me that he always thought he would have me regardless. He doesn't think that anymore.

Only you know what you need to do. I'm sitting here reading your posts and reflecting back on how differently I would have done things had I known then what I know now.

I was so incredibly duped for so long. I never doubted anything he said even when it didn't add up. Now, I find it hard to believe a word he says. It's so frustrating because, now he is putting forth a genuine effort. Crazy making shit.

We've been in MC, that's part of the problem. The MC handles us with kid gloves! And WH is an entirely different person in MC than he is at home. So good at communication and presents himself so "put together". Of course he's cancelled the last 3 appointments we had. We were supposed to go this week, I told him not to cancel, we'll see what happens. If we do go, it will be a different scene than usual. The gloves are coming off!!

He also went to one IC session, which he said he really enjoyed, then decided he was tired of people getting inside his head and that he wasn't going back. But he also told me he wasn't straight with the counselor, he didn't tell her that his A was with a hooker! That's kinda important info. An A with someone you pick up at a bar, and an A with someone you trolled and arranged for 2 days on CL and paid for…… 2 different things entirely!

WH is also comfortable in the fact that no matter what he does or what we go through, I'm always here. When I told him yesterday that I would allow him to stay a couple of weeks until his work situation was taken care of, but he was not sleeping in our bed, that's when his whole demeanor changed. Not at all what he expected.

I don't know about SA, I guess I need to read about it. Good chance he is. :( Not that he would ever admit to it, or see a C for it.

I might PM you if that's ok. And I'll go over to the I can relate board too.

Thanks again!!!

Feel free to pm me. If you post in that forum I can promise you will get much more information from unfortunately, very experienced ladies.

What I'm going to tell you may not be reassuring. My SAFWH had an EA/PA with a trampy whore in 2001. I found out about the EA part in 2002 and he dropped her like a lead balloon. He swore up and down, even at the expense of my health that there was never a PA. I asked the same questions over and over.
He had another EA in 2004.
In 2007 I learned about strippers, then porn in 2008. It wasn't until 2009 that I asked the SAME EXACT QUESTION that he admitted that he had screwed the whore. The admission was followed by insults to my sexuality and justification for his behavior. It was not until our next MC that he admitted to the other PA as well.

Besides being master manipulators and liars, SAs are full of shame. It often takes YEARS of therapy and recovery work before they can admit their failings. Of course, the damage they do to us is longer lasting.

[This message edited by scaredyKat at 7:45 PM, December 30th (Monday)]

What exactly should I be doing?

This feels...... Stupid & unproductive. I'm a 'get shit done' kinda girl. A keep the peace, find a resolution, be effective, efficient kind of person. This avoidance & silence really seems counterproductive.
I guess it's the 180. I'm taking care of me, the kids, my business. He's staying holed up in the spare room avoiding any possible interaction with me or anyone else.

I did pretty much lose my shit on him last night asking for the truth. I may have called him a pussy for his inability to man up. But just like that I walked out of the room & it was over. Exchanged a couple emails today. The last one from him saying 'I have told you the truth' and that's it.

Do I just maintain?

He did pack a bag & leave. He came back..... I wasn't home when any of this happened. I got a 'report' from my 18 year old.

Now what?

I did it all wrong. What I would do now is insist on a polygraph, then take it from there. If he is a SA, I'd insist on the appropriate steps. I'd detach, and set a deadline. Then I'd file. I wouldn't live in doubt the way I did for so many years. It was damaging to me and soul crushing.

BTW, some people can stop their "drug of choice" cold turkey for awhile. It's called "white knuckling." Most often it doesn't last. And, of course there is that pesky thing about you being still in the dark about the history of your marriage.

Fogged, this is just my opinion so take it for what it's worth ok? Remember what I said about what great manipulators they are? He's jerking your chain. Did he do these things in front of the 18 year old? Do you think he knew that you would get that report? Make no mistake, they are masters. Every move my H made in the early days was very calculated. I think now that it was just an attempt to keep me disoriented.

I would stay the 180. I would go quietly about the business of showing complete indifference. When I finally did do that, for the first time since we have known each other he saw a side of me that he wasn't familiar with and it scared him. I'm kind of back to that right now because we are at a stalemate. I simply can't move on with unfinished business and he seems willing to take it to his grave. That will be what ends up destroying this marriage, as if the pain inflicted wasn't enough.

The problem with 180, is he sort of likes 'business as usual'. Even if it doesn't necessarily involve him. He likes conflict avoidance, anything to get around facing the music, even if it means watching me go merrily about my business and not tending to his.
So I worry 180 may not be as 'effective'. Although I do understand 180 is intended to be more for me than him. More for my sanity than his. Although what I need for my sanity is answers, not silence! Which I'm not going to get any time soon.

I'm trying to get an appointment with my IC, which I haven't seen in a few weeks, because of the holidays. But I'm hopeful in the next couple of days to see her. I can tell you she will advise against the 180, only because she knows it's not necessarily 'my style'. But at this point if standing on my head in the middle of the street would help, I would do it for days on end!!

Well it sounds like unless you manage to convince him to take a poly you have reached a stalemate.

Do you want to live in limbo like this?

I think the only chance of you receiving true remorse for him, an agreement to undergo therapy for his SA and the truth is for him to see that you are moving on without him.

Remember as we say here you can not "nice" him into changing.

SA like any addiction needs the addict to first see they have a problem and admit and seek help. It sounds like your WH is still light years away from that stage.

I would suggest you see a lawyer. Find out what your legal rights are and please think about serving him with divorce papers. You do not have to carry through with the divorce if he is willing to admit his problem, seek help and be fully transparent with you.

However it looks like at this moment that this is your only chance of "waking him up".

Of course there is a good chance he will never admit how broken he is. If that is the case maintaining a relationship with a broken soul will in time only break yours.

[This message edited by timeforchange at 12:38 AM, December 31st (Tuesday)]

I told him at Dday 1, 5 months ago, that if there were any other skeletons in the closet, now was the time to drag them out! If they came out months later, it would be an entirely different story.

Draw your line in the sand.

I would, and I did, hefty bag his shit.

Let him prove to you he is willing to be the man you married.

YOU need to prove nothing to him.

Asshat, self-righteous ass-hat. He needs some help getting his head out of his ass.

I am sorry, (((hugs)))

Follow the money trail!
You deserve to know the whole truth. I was able to find dates of strip club visits based on ATM withdrawals and credit card bills where ate prior to seeing strippers.

Don't obsess too much if you can help it but I think you deserve the truth so you can make an informed decision to forgive or move on.

He came to me today & finally initiated conversation. The same old song and dance. "I love you, you're my world, I can't lose you. I've told you the truth, there's nothing more, but you don't believe anything I say. I hate what I've done to you. I want MY marriage back (not our marriage....MY marriage!). Blah blah blah.

I told him without 100% full disclosure, continuing this marriage was not an option. But I reminded him that 5 months ago as I stood over hotel sheets smeared with the makeup of a hooker & his own cum, he was still able to stand there and lie to me for 12 hours straight! To try and tell me it was bad housekeeping. And then when I found the 'arranging ' emails he still lied & said he was trying to stage a surprise threesome for me because he thought that's what I wanted. Only when I found the message where he described what he wanted to do to her & that he was an 'athletic 49 yr old' (which he's NOT). Did he finally realize the lies had run out & was forced to tell the truth. Of course it was weeks later before I got the whole truth.
So I asked him; without cum soaked sheets & all the pomp & circumstance, why now would he be compelled to tell the truth? What could I do to get him to spill it? Line up all the hookers? Bring them all to our bedroom? See if he could still deny it then?
Asked him for a poly again? He went off, flipped about his 'nervous tick' and how he'd never survive one. Whatever!