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Prepping for a "talk"

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FoggedIn posted 1/16/2014 18:16 PM

So as you probably know if you've read any of my other posts, I've been gathering intel for a few weeks. I think I've gone as far as I can go (without ending up in a straight jacket!) I could keep digging, but probably best I don't.

Now I need to confront..... again... It's been 5 months and 5 days since the first Dday when I confirmed he had a ONS with a prostitute just 2 days before. He lied to my face as I stood over the hotel bed that was covered in her make up and his cum. He lied as I read the emails on his computer arranging the hookup. 20 minutes into the emails he finally stopped lying. Or so I thought. He admitted to the ONS. A few weeks later I got, what I thought was the truth about that night and the events leading up to it & how he was so sick about it all that he threw up when she left.

2 Months went by & I just had a gut feeling there was more. There was. Weird text messages in the middle of the night, CraigsList visits, Backpage,, all recovered from his hard drive and iPhone. All were deleted, and all happened before dday.

Then I thought to check his credit card statement that gets delivered to his office and not our house (hello red flag). Found almost a years worth of monthly porn subscription charges, the occasional large porn charge for a one time viewing fee. Large sums spent at "adult stores" that also have back rooms. One of which I verified does provide 'services' (you can get a hand job for $100), he had a charge from there for $104.35.

Now I need to lay it all out there and see if he's willing to be truthful with me. My guess is no.

I confronted him about another occasion in which I'm 90% sure he had a ONS with a prostitute and he went silent. He didn't deny & didn't admit. Until 2 days later, then he adamently denied it.

I need some strength & wisdom!
I kicked him out of our bed almost 3 weeks ago, I think the next step is to kick him out of our house. I can't live this double life. There's a good chance he's a SA, and an even better chance he can't come to terms with it, which means he also can't recover from it.

Thought??? Wisdom???

painfulpast posted 1/16/2014 18:28 PM

Oh, I'm sorry. You need to push him to decide if he will live within your boundaries or not. He's trying to do both, and that can't happen.

Your H, it appears, has been cheating on you for some time. Random hookups with prostitutes, back rooms of adult stores, Craigslist searchings, etc. Please, get tested, and make him get tested. No sex without a condom for at least 6 months, and then you both get tested again. The last thing you need is a physical reminder of his issue, particularly one that can kill you.

I would have copies of the proof. Do NOT have the originals in the house, anywhere. Keep them in your office, at a friends, anywhere but where he can find them and destroy them. Sadly, you will want this evidence if divorce.

I would clearly state what you know. Then tell him that you won't tolerate this, at all. Inform him that he either gets help from a CSAT, or you will be separating, period.

He may deny, yell, scream, call YOU names for finding out he's been lying, etc. None of that matters. What matters is you know the truth - the entire truth. If he gets upset, remain calm, and matter of fact. Wait until he is done yelling, and continue with what you know. As long as you don't fear physical attacks, this is a good approach. Act almost as if you are saying these things to a stranger.

In addition, no more secret CC bills to the office. No cell phone locks. No computer use for social networking. The computer will be monitored, etc. If he refuses, you have a hard choice to make.

you can do this. stay strong


doggiediva posted 1/16/2014 18:32 PM

Have your ducks in a row and a back up plan in case your WS refuses to be kicked out of the house..

meplusfour posted 1/16/2014 20:19 PM

I have followed a few of your posts but I wasn't sure if you mentioned this but make sure that you get some legal advice before confronting. You need to know your position regarding child support and custody issues before you tip your hand.

Sending you grace, dignity and strength in spades.

totallyconfused1 posted 1/16/2014 20:37 PM

I second what the pp stated about finding out about custody and support and having a plan in place before you confront him.

Also, I would take $$ out of the bank accounts in case you need it. I did that - stashed some cash before I confronted my ws. Wasn't sure if he was gonna flip and take off and clean out the bank account outta spite or what. Even though my ws seems remorseful, I've learned I don't want to have a financial disaster on my hands as well as a broken marriage, so I will make sure there's always a stash for easy access if needed.

Sending you hugs and strength vibes.

womaninflux posted 1/16/2014 20:49 PM

Get all of your financial papers in order before he leaves. This sends him a message that you are very serious.

Give him the SA meeting list if there are some he can get to.

Also give him the number of a CSAT.

Give some thought about what your bottom line is - whatever that is. For example: he can return to the house if he is going to meetings and seeing CSAT 1+x/wk. Studies have shown that there is more success with SA if you take a tough love approach - i.e. take off wedding ring, in house separation, create and adhere to boundaries.

Expect that it could take more than a couple of months for him to realize his issues. Mine started seeing a psychiatrist right away and I asked him what issues his psychiatrist thinks he has and he said "nothing - he doesn't think I am mentally ill." This psychiatrist has been good and bad…bad in that he is super secretive and won't collaborate with MC on anything. Good in that my husband has someone who listens to him. Bad that he doesn't call him out on his shit. Good that my husband feels "safe" with him. A couple of months later, after ZERO improvement in our relationship, I asked him if he thinks he is SA. He was driving the car (coming home from a long trip) and he said with tears in his eyes that yes he thinks this is a possibility. Our MC, who had a lot of training in this area, hinted to me that she thought this was what the real issue was. We were referred to a CSAT and he's been seeing CSAT ever since. Once he started going to meetings a few months into CSAT treatment was when I started seeing real progress. I think a lot of SA think they are alone in this issue. Not the case. Each person experiences something slightly different but they all have certain hallmarks of SA. It takes going to the meetings, seeing the devastation in these peoples' lives that has been brought on by sexual acting out for SA to realize this is some serious shit and I need to face it.

In the meantime, work on yourself. You can't control him/what he does. Take a class, take up a sport, keep busy any way you can - not so you don't think about it, but so you go on with your life and feel fulfilled.

FoggedIn posted 1/16/2014 23:24 PM

We don't have children together. So things there can get a bit confusing but easier to deal with at the same time. 'We' have 6 children (his 3, my 3) only 2 left at home and both are mine. However since we've been married 12 years, I certainly feel as though they are all my children. But as far as child support and custody is concerned, that is not an issue. Which is good..... and bad. Because that means no added financial support on my end. He makes a 'very' good living )$150k a year, I own my business, but do not make enough to support our current lifestyle and 2 children. Which ultimately leaves me concerned for my final decision in the end. Kick him out...... how the hell am I going to pay the mortgage, etc?

I've spent a short amount of time researching a CSAT in our area and have returned nothing. We live in a small town, and I'm assuming that SA counselors are not common here. So if I actually do find one, it will be a minimum 2.5 hour drive. I guess I can demand he make that commitment on a weekly basis. That's a small price to pay for your marriage and your family. Truthfully, it's for his own life, even if it's not with me. But he will resist, no doubt! He went ti IC, once and although he said he felt comfortable with her and enjoyed his session, shortly thereafter he said he was tired of people getting in his head and he wasn't going back. But he wasn't truthful with her either. He said he had a ONS, but left out the part that it was with a prostitute! Kind of important info in my unprofessional opinion! He's cancelled the last 3 MC appointments we had for 'legitimate' scheduling reasons. So it says to me that he's done talking about it all and just wants to nice it away and make it go away with his acts of kindness, which he's done on a regular basis.

Financially I am concerned! I'd be under water in 2 months. I can drain the bank account and savings and be ok for a few months probably, but that stresses me out. Don't ask me why..... He is OCD about money. I've always told him that he would react worse over financial infidelity than he would over sexual infidelity and it's the truth. Money is his God!

tushnurse posted 1/17/2014 13:17 PM

GO TO A LAWYER. STOP pondering, and find out what will and wont' happen.

Do this prior to confronting, your fear of financial ruin are influencing your decisions.

Don't tolerate less than you deserve because you don't want to live in an apartment, or give up your current lifestyle that you are accustomed to.

(((and strength))))

tushnurse posted 1/17/2014 13:17 PM

GO TO A LAWYER. STOP pondering, and find out what will and wont' happen.

Do this prior to confronting, your fear of financial ruin are influencing your decisions.

Don't tolerate less than you deserve because you don't want to live in an apartment, or give up your current lifestyle that you are accustomed to.

(((and strength))))

FoggedIn posted 1/19/2014 16:19 PM

Still no talk....

Why do I keep putting this off?

womaninflux posted 1/19/2014 20:25 PM

You can probably find one who will Skype, eliminating the need for travel.

ETA - Tushnurse is right…knowledge is power. You will want to know what your case looks like. Worth spending some $ on a consultation.

[This message edited by womaninflux at 8:27 PM, January 19th (Sunday)]

FoggedIn posted 1/19/2014 22:42 PM

Talk happened. So did a bunch of lying!

Porn charges on the credit card? "I don't know what you're talking about!"
Adult stores? "I was probably buying us toys, didn't I bring you something not long ago?"

Then there were tears. "You don't really know what you have until you're about to lose it. But if you decide it's over, I won't argue." WTF????

Good to know he'll fight for me.

It all ended with me insisting on IC for him and that he call first thing tomorrow, he agreed. He also said if it means he has to sleep in the guest room for 6 months, he's willing. We'll see if he has any ah ha moments in IC, if he actually schedules it. Also I sent him copies of CC statements with the porn charges, we'll see if that triggers any memories!!!

brokenblackbird posted 1/20/2014 02:06 AM

I understand that you want him to get an AHA moment. But what if he doesn't? This is your third DDay and the lies have continued. Where is your line in the sand?

I'm with the others who think you should see a lawyer. And an IC. Work on you for you. You are worth it and you deserve it. He, on the other hand... you've given him chance after chance and he continues to lie to you and hide things from you. He doesn't even admit to things when he gets caught with hard evidence!!

tushnurse posted 1/20/2014 07:36 AM

Listen to Brokenblackbird.

She is so right.

YOU are worth much more. Figure out why you find it acceptable to live like this? Lying to you during a discussion including new findings, and you accept it. With no resolution, with only intent to change, or do what you want.

You deserve much more. Figure out how you will get to a point of demanding it, and do what it takes to get there.

(((and strength)))

FoggedIn posted 1/20/2014 11:32 AM

You are both right. I don't know why I keep giving another chance. I guess there's some part of me holding out hope that something will change. But I know that's not going to happen. I wrote in my journal before we talked that I knew how things would transpire. I was right. I know him so well (not as 'well' as I thought I did apparently). I know I have FoO issues, never good enough, internalized achievement issues, built walls, I can handle it myself, blah blah blah!

I have been seeing an IC for a few months. Been considering switching. Not that she's not a good C, but sometimes I need a 2x4 and she's a bit gentler than I need. I'm very self aware, so she doesn't usually tell me anything I didn't already know. One thing she did say was that clearly WH has things he's probably not willing to give up. He may be willing to give up sex with other women, but likely not willing to give up fantasies, porn and objectifying women (probably other things I'm not even aware of!). Which is why he's unwilling to come clean about them. Also he's very very very interested in people's perception of himself, including me. Which is why, years ago, he refused to admit he masturbated, ever! (I'm not an idiot!) He says it's embarrassing. Even last night when I brought it up again, he reiterated it. I find that ridiculous! It's all about how he wants me to see him & the control he wants to have over that.

I am currently drafting a list of requirements I will send him shortly. I may post that here momentarily for your thoughts and suggestions. I don't want to be easy on him!

I'll admit It concerns me that he says if I decide I want a D, he said he won't argue. So I feel like if I file and have him served, he will sign and that's that! Rather than it be an opportunity to shake him to rock bottom and have him reevaluate his stance on transparency.
There isn't a waiting period in our state. If the terms are worked out I can file today and be divorced tomorrow!

lordhasaplan? posted 1/20/2014 11:46 AM

So I feel like if I file and have him served, he will sign and that's that! Rather than it be an opportunity to shake him to rock bottom and have him reevaluate his stance on transparency.

Its not your job to fix him! Its your job to hold up your end of a healthy relationship. Right now your failing. Failing to hold him accountable and failing to protect yourself. All because your trying to fix him. YOU CANT. Protect yourself, Hard line, file for D. If he signs it he's doing you a favor, Because his actions are telling you he wont stop.

Skan posted 1/20/2014 12:31 PM

^^^^^ This.

If he's not willing to fight for you, then what's the point? Company? A warm body in the house to say Hello to? A dog would be good company and treat you with far more love. And be truly happy every time you walked through the door.

My 2nd and 3rd DDays were due to porn. And it wasn't until I left him, and then saw my lawyer to drop up legal separation papers, that my FWH got his head out of his ass and bounced off of that rock bottom. Because I was done. I was filing as soon as he got a job and off of unemployment. He had to earn me back and frankly, I didn't really want to be earned back. It was only by his hard work and Grace that we are together. But he never would have gotten to that point, if I hadn't decided to love and honor myself first, and make healthy choices for myself. You deserve better. You have the power to get to better. Use it. (((hugs)))

RealityStinks posted 1/20/2014 12:34 PM

So I feel like if I file and have him served, he will sign and that's that! Rather than it be an opportunity to shake him to rock bottom and have him reevaluate his stance on transparency.

I'll preface his by saying that I should take my own advice, but here it goes.

If he just signs the papers and walks away, then he didn't want to be in the M anymore anyway. If you continue to holdout waiting on him and are afraid to file because he might let the D happen, you are wasting your time. Do you really want someone like that in your life?

That said, I completely understand your hesitations. I'm in the same boat. If I file, my WW will let it happen. You (me too) have to get to a point where you are OK with the fact that he might just let it happen, and that means life as you know it is no more. I really do understand, and I'm sorry you're dealing with this as well.

Hang in there.

FoggedIn posted 1/20/2014 19:44 PM

Here's what I've drafted as my lines in the sand.

Too hard? Too soft? Too much info? Not enough?
(Should I have started a new post)

These are my lines in the sand

Maintain regular counseling sessions.
Weekly for now. You will be honest with her about the nature of your affair. As well as all other aspects of you & our relationship.

Bi-weekly marriage counseling.

Read books, articles, forums & whatever else you can find regarding infidelity on a regular basis.
I should not be the only one that is doing the 'work' to fix this mess you made.

Realize we are not yet in a state of reconciliation. I thought we were a few months ago until my gut told there was more to uncover. We will not be in a state of reconciliation until you reach a point of honesty. The longer that takes, the less likely the chance of reconciliation. This is not just about what occurred on 8/8/2013. However if it was, that night, the events leading up to it & everything since then certainly are more than enough to cause a complete breakdown.

No porn whether it be online (including your phone), tv, magazine or whatever other forms may be available.

No fantasies. If you find yourself 'drifting' into some sexual fantasy, certainly one that doesn't involve me & is out of what you know I would consider normal. Try & bring yourself back to reality!

No communication that is not necessary & work related with women. Period!
Any other communication that occurs, you should tell me about immediately. Show me the correspondence if it was via email or text.

No deleting of anything. Period! If it's junk, then move it to the junk or spam folder. Do not empty your sent folder, deleted folder or anything else! No deleting internet history from the computer or phone. I can still recover every page you access even if you delete it from your history, it just becomes time consuming & you look very very guilty when you delete things.

BTW, he scheduled IC for tomorrow....

I'm very grateful for everyone's help! I really can't say that enough!!! XO

brokenblackbird posted 1/20/2014 23:29 PM

I think I'd skip marriage counseling for now. He hasn't been being honest and where is it getting you?

Shorten your bullet points:

Weekly counseling. (Its great to tell him to be honest with the counselor, but honey, he already knows he should be honest and you can't control that)

Bi-weekly marriage counseling. (This isn't something I'd do with someone who is still lying to me)

Read about infidelity. (Maybe you could get a list of books together for him? Not DO the work for him)

(Scratch the whole reconciliation thing, it sounds like you are writing him a letter)

No porn.

No fantasies. (?? I'm not sure how you could monitor this, he'd only lie so I'm not sure I'd include it)

No unnecessary communication with women. Work related only.

Transparency: No deleting email, internet history, phone calls, texts, etc.

Edited to add: you want this to be easy to understand, not wordy (he won't read it) and use it as boundaries for yourself and him.

What are the consequences if he doesn't follow through? If you aren't willing and ready to leave him, then don't bother doing this.

[This message edited by brokenblackbird at 11:32 PM, January 20th (Monday)]

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