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AFrayedKnot posted 1/17/2014 08:16 AM

Resigning myself to a life of Fear.

Or Indifference.

rachelc posted 1/17/2014 08:20 AM

Chicho - what's going on?

Brandon808 posted 1/17/2014 08:27 AM

Fear or Indifference?

Why are you resigning yourself to that?

karmahappens posted 1/17/2014 08:35 AM


My journey began with fear

worked into indifference

and found a way to freedom.

Don't stop Chicho, keep working it.
You will get there too.

AFrayedKnot posted 1/17/2014 08:37 AM

what other options are there?

Either go all in and do us. Hoping for the best but still fearing the worst.


Do me and keep a protective divide between us knowing that I will be ok leaving if it happens again.

forgivingnow posted 1/17/2014 08:41 AM

Exactly what karmahappens said. My husband and I are proof if you keep working, allow your self to be vulnerable and honest with each other and focus on "us" you can build something even more beautiful. I still have fear, he is still working thru his shame but we are still moving forward and designing what we both deserve. With that said, I do know how you feel. Think about how far you have come, how strong you are and what you are grateful for. Ask for reassurance.

forgivingnow posted 1/17/2014 08:43 AM

Talked about this with my IC this do both.
Both of you work on the marriage, be all in and each of you work on isn't one or the other.

AFrayedKnot posted 1/17/2014 08:53 AM

Being truely vulnerable and committed as well as self reliant seems like such a contradiction. How can they both occur at the same time? and both be effective?

MovingUpward posted 1/17/2014 09:09 AM

I can see how trying to be both vulnerable and self reliant can seem to be contradictory. Be capable of being self reliant, but allow yourself to be vulnerable.

Resign yourself to a life of Courage.

[This message edited by MovingUpward at 9:09 AM, January 17th (Friday)]

wert posted 1/17/2014 09:11 AM

Being truely vulnerable and committed as well as self reliant seems like such a contradiction.

I agree. Key words ... seems....

A book for you to read - full catastrophe living.

Live now...not yesterday or tomorrow. Hug fear and welcome him into your life because he is here always. Might be about the A or the cheeseburger you just ate.

Some of this is about the balance between self reliance and co-dependency. All M's are co-dependent by definition. It only a matter of degree's.

I do think you are holding on to outcomes here. I do to. That said the book above, and a lot of self observation has allowed me to be a witness to my own thinking process and realize the things that matter to me. My M serves my life pretty well, I don't serve it.

take care...and I hope you greet fear with open arms....

karmahappens posted 1/17/2014 09:12 AM

Beautiful quotes MOO

AFrayedKnot posted 1/17/2014 09:22 AM

I do think you are holding on to outcomes here.

Absolutely, and those outcomes are 100% completely out of my control. I really don't like having that little input on my path in life. Being along for the ride of someone who has proven time and time again that their decision making process is very flawed*.

*It totally has the appearance of change and growth. The gamble is if it is real and can be sustained for the long haul.

ETA: Thanks Moo

[This message edited by Chicho at 9:24 AM, January 17th (Friday)]

bionicgal posted 1/17/2014 09:24 AM

Ugh. . it hurts, it hurts, it hurts!

But, vulnerability is the only way through. So f-ing scary. But, look, if worse comes to worst, you opened your heart wide open, and you lived in the fullest sense of the word. If you get hurt again, you will survive, and maybe in better shape than if you just kept your little, walled-off, safe heart.

We can grow, be vulnerable, and let the universe do what it does. We can't control anything. So, live in a way that will make you proud when you reach the end of line. I want to give it my all, and I have nothing less to lose than anyone else in this world - but nothing more, either.

Keep the faith, ((Chico.))

Jewlz posted 1/17/2014 09:26 AM

My M serves my life pretty well, I don't serve it.

This is really good.

forgivingnow posted 1/17/2014 09:30 AM

To me, I don't see it as a contradiction.

Being vulnerable & open & honest with each other means you are communicating with each other, no secrets. Letting each other know what you need.

Being committed, putting "us" as a priority. From the book "The Seven Levels of Intimacy" by Matthew Kelly....
"Every choice we make can improve our relationship or diminish it." The meaning of life:"Our essential purpose is to be the best version of ourselves." The meaning/purpose of marriage:"to challenge& encourage each other to be the best version of themselves."

Being self reliant. I have to be a strong individual. I've been working on this since initial dday March of 2011that is independent of my marriage. My marriage, his infidelity does not define me. (Or him).

wert posted 1/17/2014 09:37 AM

Absolutely, and those outcomes are 100% completely out of my control.

Sucks, don't it? I have just come to terms with that is a truism in life. With most things.

What's your story? If you tell yourself the story of fear, well that is what you have. If you tell yourself on the whole your life is better for now with your W and a family, than it is.

Shit man, I feel angry sometimes when my W tries to connect with me. Sometimes I feel indifferent after a BJ. Whatever. Just feelings I work through. They are not me. Nor is your fear you. Step back from it all. I seen nothing wrong with at any point in your life you step back from your M and say, "wait, this ain't working for me." The question is what do you do about it them. Control the things you can, you. Ask for the things you want and need, you may get some of them. Insist that your W not be an asshat, other than that, let her be.

take care...

unfound posted 1/17/2014 09:49 AM

Being truely vulnerable and committed as well as self reliant seems like such a contradiction. How can they both occur at the same time? and both be effective?

I experienced so many contradictory things in R. How can working towards a good marriage live in the same head as working towards being okay if it doesn't work out?

They can both occur and yet both still be valid, and effective even though they are contradictory. Being vulnerable is scary, and so is the thought of having to be self reliant. Working on yourself doesn't have to be the opposite or alternative choice to working on the M. You work on self reliance no matter what. It can, and does IMO, compliment working on the M. It frees you to an extent, to be vulnerable and committed. It's not easy doing both simultaneously, but it does come together at some point to meld into more of a life work than me vs M's a "me in whatever situation I may find myself in" work.

for me, it was the commonality of fear in both contradictions... it was accepting the fear. It was a valid feeling, but didn't rule my decisions or actions.

[This message edited by unfound at 9:50 AM, January 17th (Friday)]

DixieD posted 1/17/2014 09:56 AM

Being truely vulnerable and committed as well as self reliant seems like such a contradiction. How can they both occur at the same time? and both be effective?

It sounds like what you are describing is interdependence. It's hard to get there if you've never been there or seen it before. Still working on it.

For definition purposes:

Interdependent Couples
What makes interconnections healthy is interdependency, not codependency. Paradoxically, interdependency requires two people capable of autonomy (the ability to function independently). When couples love each other, itís normal to feel attached, to desire closeness, to be concerned for each another, and to depend upon each other. Their lives are intertwined, and theyíre affected by and need each other. However, they share power equally and take responsibility for their own feelings, actions, and contributions to the relationship. Because they have self-esteem, they can manage their thoughts and feelings on their own and donít have to control someone else to feel okay. They can allow for each otherís differences and honor each anotherís separateness. Thus, theyíre not afraid to be honest. They can listen to their partnerís feelings and needs without feeling guilty or becoming defensive. Since their self-esteem doesnít depend upon their partner, they donít fear intimacy, and independence doesnít threaten the relationship. In fact, the relationship gives them each more freedom. Thereís mutual respect and support for each otherís personal goals, but both are committed to the relationship.


Codependent Couples
Codependent couples usually are out of balance. Frequently, there are struggles for power and control. There may be an imbalance of power or one partner may have taken on responsibility for the other. Theyíre often anxious and resentful and feel guilty and responsible for their partnerís feelings and moods. Then they try to control each another to feel okay and get their needs met. Rather than respect each otherís separateness and individuality, they canít tolerate disagreement and blame one another for causing their problems without taking responsibility for themselves. Sometimes, what they dislike in their partner is the very thing they canít accept in themselves. Despite their pain, they can feel trapped in the relationship because they fear that they cannot function on their own. Their mutual codependency and insecurity also makes intimacy threatening, since being honest and known risks rejection or dissolution of their fragile self.

Like the aspen trees, on the surface each may appear to be physically, and even mentally and emotionally, independent, yet at an unconscious level, theyíre two insecure adults dependent upon each other to express a whole. For instance, a woman who has trouble expressing anger marries an angry man who expresses it for her. Or a man who is extremely closed and shy marries a woman whoís emotionally open and gregarious. They need each other to express their full humanity. In other cases, itís more obvious that one partner needs the other for emotional stability, as in the case of alcoholic relationships. Financial dependence doesnít necessarily create codependence, where the dependent partner has good self-esteem and emotional support outside the marriage. Even spouses who appear more capable and stronger may be equally dependent on the relationship. They need someone to care for in order to feel needed, worthwhile, and not alone, while their partner feels valued by receiving.

[This message edited by DixieD at 10:04 AM, January 17th (Friday)]

Rebreather posted 1/17/2014 11:47 AM

Chico, those things are complimentary to one another, not opposites.

Two functioning, healthy adults who invest fully in their marriage can still now that will be strong on their own as well. The dependence on the marriage for your happiness is the problem.

You can be vulnerable and go all in, and still know in your mind and heart that if it doesn't work, you'll be fine. That's the whole point, I think, of reconciliation.

I consider our marriage a team sport, like tennis doubles. We each have our time to be in charge, and our time to support the other. I back him up, he backs me up. We are vulnerable enough to allow the other to have that "in charge" time, and trust enough to take back seat when needed. If we can never get it over the net as a team, I can learn to play singles. Doesn't mean I won't miss playing doubles, but I can be perfectly happy as a single. But the only way the team works, if we both work on being strong players in our own right.

[This message edited by Rebreather at 11:48 AM, January 17th (Friday)]

AFrayedKnot posted 1/17/2014 12:08 PM

The dependence on the marriage for your happiness is the problem.

Not even close. I have absolutely no doubt that I can be happy, successful, and fulfilled single. I have no fear of that at all. What I am trying come to terms with is:

The dependence on the security in marriage for your happiness in the marriage.

It feels like there will never be true security, so there can never be true happiness.

I can't bring myself to go all in if in the back of my mind I will someday be all out.

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