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I thought I had had a breakthrough on Monday in IC; My counselor got some new insight to my marriage prior to DDay and she said that she could see that we were headed down a bad path. She said either we were going to get divorced or I was going to stay in a dead marriage where my children and I went one way while my husband went another. She felt that my very broken husband who is a conflict avoider and was very disconnected to his feelings would never have been able to make changes without the true threat of losing me. So, in effect, she said that we really have a shot at coming through this better and stronger than ever. She sees my Husband as doing everything he can to get us on the right path and that I should let go of my thoughts and questions around the OW. After discussing the OW's pathology however, she did feel that based on some of the FB comments that we should discuss whether or not it made sense to tell her just one more time that there is no hope for her, that she needs to stop risking exposing the affair through Facebook where we have mutual friends so our children do not find out.

So, while discussing this with my Husband, I asked (AGAIN) why does she feel she has the right to fight for you to leave your family? What is the hold? Then I asked, "Did you let her think you do not love me anymore?"
He was silent. I had asked many times before what he had said to her about his feelings for me. He always maintained that he told her that he did not think I was in love with him anymore and he thought our marriage was over. He never said that he told her he did not love me anymore. I may have even asked point blank if he told her he did not love me anymore and he said no. He definately said repeatedly that he did not share how he felt about me, that he did tell her that he loved her. Now it turns out I find out the truth that I had suspected for a while. I begged for the truth and he always assured me he was honest with me. He says now that this was all part of the confusion and within a week of these confessions, he ended it because he know none of it was true. To me this is not about that; it is more about 5 months out, he has flat out lied after begging me to trust him again.
After feeling so hopeful, I now feel like I should just run. I don't know what to do or feel. My head is spinning!

((NWG))

I hear your pain and I'm so sorry for it. You do not need to make a decision right now. You will be OK. Breathe and allow yourself time to process this new info.

As many others here, and my IC have told me, your amygdala is screaming at you to get out, to run away to stay safe. Allow it to calm down before you decide anything. It is a truly horrible feeling (I had it just this weekend), but feel it and get through it and when the panic passes you will be able to see things more clearly.

Thank you Morhurt; It helps to remember to breathe. Do you thick that this constitutes no or false R if WH has done everything else right? He is adamant that he is in love with me and that he was empty, and full of despair just prior to and during the affair. He gives cell phone, email accounts freely and accounts for all of his time. He got us into MC and he is in IC as well. But this was a blatant lie. He says it hurts to hurt me. He says I knew the worst part which was that he mistakenly felt that he loved her but it felt wrong and he got out. But a lie is a lie, isn't it???

This is Trickle Truth. The same as lying. This is where so many WS's wind up just killing any chance they had at saving a marriage and keeping a family intact.

I agree with Morhurt.

Breathe and allow yourself time to process this new info.

I was ready to throw the towel in with my FWH's lying. He lied to me about throwing out fish guts. Fucking. Filthy. Fish. Guts. I was sick of him treating me like his mommy that he had to lie to about doing his chores. Really???!!!????

The thing is, FWH is a conflict avoider. He was taught this by mommy dearest. To keep peace in the house, mommy taught all the children to lie to bully Daddy. It is so ingrained in FWH that it just comes natural to him. It takes quite awhile to undo these behaviours. Not only do they have to overcome lifelong habits they have to feel safe to be honest.

There is going to be slip ups into old behaviours. There is going to be truths withheld. There comes a time, though, when there can be no slip ups, no more Trickle Truth because the BS is just going to come to the conclusion that this person can not or will not change. A risk and consequence that every WS takes once they cross that boundary into an affair.

eta: I do believe that many WS's don't want to hurt the BS's and feel that lying is a way to not hurt us. They are flat out wrong. The lies hurt us the most of all. This is a quote I like:

“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.” ― Friedrich Nietzsche

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 3:00 PM, January 30th (Thursday)]

If the OP keeps hanging on..you can pretty much guess they were told by your WS that they didnt love us anymore....Or else why would they catch feelings if they were just fycking?

Or else why would they catch feelings if they were just fycking?

In my situation, because the AP is a sociopath and just plain mentally ill.

eta: I hope this isn't considered name calling, mods. I did edit "cray cray" for mentally ill.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 5:56 PM, January 30th (Thursday)]

NIKKID, that is exactly why I kept questioning; Are you sure you told her that you loved her, but you didn't talk about how you felt about us??? She seems to feel entitled. Where did that come from???

He did say today that every time I ask a question and he tells me, I respond with, "how could you do that with her?" He says that the hurt is so bad that it feels like he is tearing off a limb when he hurts me with the answers. Of course, he wants to take what he learned from examining the affair and how he was feeling before and during and look forward to fix us. I know he would rather get off the topic of the OW because he feels nothing but shame, disgust and embarrassment, knowing that his thinking was so "off" or "distorted" during that time. I don't know what to think anymore. How can I trust if he continues to lie to protect me? As he said, the who's, what's and why's seem to all be out there. So to me, why not be honest with the rest???

Have you guys read Joseph's letter?

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/healing_library/confrontation/joseph.asp

It really helped my H understand and it helped me feel OK about needing the full truth. I still reference it at times.

I agree with Sister. It's trickle truth which hurts like hell. I won't go into all my thoughts because I think Sister did a great job hitting all the things I would have said. I will very cautiously and respectfully add, however, that while horribly painful, his finally admitting something so shaming and hurtful is a solid step in the R process. I found that once my H really and completely detached from the MOW and faced himself and his deeds, he began to freely correct all the TT garbage he'd been steadily feeding me. He didn't come to me with a list of lies that he now wanted to set straight, although that happened a couple of times, but when we would talk and something untrue or questionable came up, he'd remorsefully tell me that he had lied and then would tell me the truth. Honestly, the only way he could remember what lies he'd told me were when we would be discussing something and he'd realize I didn't have the real facts. It was hard to hear, but I knew the honest guy I had married was finally coming home, and that felt good.

Yes, I have read Joseph's letter. I forwarded it to him. He said it helped him to understand, but I am not sure that he fully got it. Our counselor continues to tell me, in front of him, that getting the answers to questions only puts salt in the wound. It's like driving a knife into a cut. She says I know what I need to know and that I need to take her out of the equation now that I know that it is not love for her on his part, and focus on us if we are to heal. He has completely latched onto that. He says he can't bear to hurt me anymore.

I think your counselor is wrong. Just because she has a degree or whatever doesn't mean she knows. Honestly. What's important is what you need. Not what the counselor thinks you need. Some people don't need all the truth and facts, some do. He needs to respect what you need no matter how hard it is for him. Our first counselor said the same thing (we fired him) and H tried to latch on. thankfully with reading and talking, he changed his tune.

Not all MCs are created equally. Maybe you need a new one.

Sister; I understand that there are going to be slips back into old behaviors, but I am wondering what makes a person who seems to have been remorseful and truthful about so much still lie about something so important when asked point blank. I have a feeling he may not have wanted to admit it to himself?? I do know he knew just how much it would hurt me. She had been a friend of mine growing up and his ex girlfriend. She never gave up on pursuing him. He knew I was always worried about her. I just never worried about him (HOW STUPID). But my point is, how do you let a lie go after 5 months of trying to be honest, sort through things and move forward? Am I being too hard on him or am I right to feel completely assaulted by this??? Why can't I come to a conclusion on this? I am usually more sure of what do do and feel in situations like this. :(

Maybe try not to make a decision on it right now. Just feel it, experience it and give it time. This is a big new thing to process and there's no need to rush yourself.

Thank you Morhurt; The more I try to figure this out, the more I find myself slipping into that dark place which seems to hurt more since I felt we were in a better place just yesterday. I guess I am rushing things in a effort to get some relief….

In my situation, because the AP is a sociopath and just plain cray cray.

Yeah, and then there's that....

Been there, heard that.
"I thought you didn't love me, that our marriage was over". I was told the exact same words.

My interpretation is that he thought: "My wife doesn't love me, so I'm allowed to try the forbidden fruit"
It's all justification to allow a WS to taste the new fruit because of their own selfish issues.

I just want to add, if he's doing everything else right and he's missed on this one, that doesn't mean you're not in a real R. He's only human after all. I know that's hard to take but we all make mistakes even with the best intentions. If he's doing everything else right, and he's withholding information, then make it so that the environment when he does say new information is comfortable for him. In most cases FWS go to AP because they felt comfortable talking to AP and not us. If you help the environment and help him realize that talking to you is safe and ok, I think that will give him more incentive to reveal the rest.

For example, every time my FWH gives new information, I thank him very much and tell him that all new information helps me heal cause then everything is in the open and I can move forward. He can still see me hurt and cry he has to see what he's done. But the language and the hug I gave afterwards allowing him to comfort me helped him talk more and reveal more than any screaming confrontation or accusation. Of course this works on a truly remorseful FORMER WS. Doesn't work on an active WS.

I hope that helps. More power to you.

[This message edited by Simple at 6:59 PM, January 30th (Thursday)]

Simple; Thank you so much for responding; I felt better after reading your post. He is so sincere in his desire to have a healthy happy marriage no matter what it takes to get there, and has hung around through very tough emotional times when in the past he would have completely shut down and walked away and I see change in so many areas.That is why this was so devastating to me. While I have NO understanding at all how a person could claim to be in love with the affair partner and not love their wife, and all of a sudden realize that it was all wrong and he never felt those things for real, I remind myself that this is a story so common that many people have written the same stories here so there is clearly a phenomenon in affairs that allows this kind of skewed thinking to occur. I try to soothe myself by reminding myself that he ended it a week after he felt and verbalized those things, and he says and it seems to be true that he felt NO sadness for leaving her, no withdrawal, that ending it confirmed how wrong the affair had been because he had no sense of loss there.

This morning I woke up to a letter from him saying that he couldn't talk about saying that he didm't love me because he knew he would need to explain shy he said it, how he was feeling and why, etc. He says at the time, he didn't know how to explain this, but now after sorting through things more thoroughly he can say that those feelings were feelings if the moment, and had nothing to do with his real feelings. He says he can only talk about it now because he has worked through this and now has the ability to share what he previously could not verbalize, and without an explanation, he knew I would not be able to accept that.
He ended by saying that he loves me and would shout it from the mountain tops for all to hear, he wants to help me through this and thinks we have too much to live for. Any thought about this?????

I think it sounds great, very encouraging.

Thank you; I hope I am not missing something or in denial. These days I can't trust a single feeling; so frustrating!