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ClearEyes12 posted 2/3/2014 12:46 PM

I am just about a week out from finding out...things. I am sure not everything. I have, at least, discovered a definite pattern of lies.

I've had suspicions now for over 7 years, since I was pregnant with my son. I only found suggestive emails back then, nothing concrete. 2 years ago I discovered he had a secret bank account full of money. He'd only told me about borrowing $5,000 but the bank sent him a letter and when I opened it I found out he'd taken out a $15,000 line of credit. A $10,000 lie!

He bought me an engagement ring with half the money, "so you won't leave me" saying it had been his plan all along and that's why he couldn't tell me about it. We'd been married 11 years at that point.

Most recently I'd had those nagging little feelings again, and started looking through his phone and internet search history. I saw that he'd mapquested the directions from our house to a nearby strip club on a weekend that I'd been out of town with our kids. In the last year I found that every time he went out of town (almost every weekend for both work and pleasure reasons) he was visiting strip clubs. I confronted him about it but he only got more secretive - all while telling me that "we had a deal" - he'd tell me if he was at a stripclub and he wouldn't pay the dancers for anything extra.

I wasn't OK with it, but I figured he was going to go with or without telling me, I guess I'd rather he told me.

Last weekend, on the 31st, he was out on a snowmobiling trip with friends. He called multiple times that night to check in, told me where they were and where they were heading next. Around 11:15 he told me that they would be back to the truck in an hour and he would let me know he was coming home. That night he says he got in at 1:30am. He slept on the couch, which is highly unusual. He said he didn't want to wake me up.
I asked him point-blank if he had any confessions. He looked me straight in the eye and told me no. Then he asked if I had any.

The day went on and I truly believed that he hadn't done anything other than ride around with friends that night. He was acting strangely, though. Offering to go pick up the kids from their activities which is a task that usually falls to me. When he wasn't doing that he was moping on the couch or sleeping. Later that night I tried to get him to have sex with me but he flat out denied me. He said he was too tired. I was hurt, but I believed him. We went to bed.
The next day I felt it in my gut that something was off. I went down the stairs while he was sleeping and tore through EVERYTHING. His phone. His bag. His pockets. His wallet. I found an ATM receipt for $150 at 9:45 in a town about an hour away from where he told me he was at that time. He only had $40 left in his wallet. And then I found a pair of underwear in his trash can under his desk that he had obviously orgasmed in.
I confronted him, he proceeded to lie to my face for the next 3 hours. We shouted and ranted at each other but he swore up and down that nothing happened, it was just a "wet dream" etc. In that 3 hours it came out that he was no longer as attracted to me, but that it was a product of his hormones, nothing else. Finally, finally after 3 hours he came clean. He had been at a strip club the night before and a stripper had put her vag*na on top of his hand and humped it. He was concerned because he had an open wound from a job site on the knuckle that was inside her vagina. He was worried about diseases.
It was a painful day. He was remorseful and promised nothing else had happened. I gave him a list that he had to comply with: Dealbreakers were stripclubs and lying, I wanted access to the doctor's report and I wanted the password to his bank account. He agreed.He went to the doctor the next day, I went with him. The doctor told him there was no way any disease transmission had occurred. I felt like I could, after time, believe him and move on from this.
I still had questions, though.

The next day, he still hadn't given me the password to the account. I could tell he was holding back for a reason. He finally gave in late that night. The next morning the first thing I did was check his internet search history (by signing on to his google account, not by looking at his laptop). I saw that he searched the town where he had pulled the money from the ATM. He'd also searched for ways to delete ATM and bank transactions from his account, and if ATM time stamps were ever incorrect.

I started to shake and then I started to DIG.
I blew my cover and told him I knew all this stuff about him, but I didn't tell him how. He kept denying trying to hide anything from me. I told him when we got home that we'd check his internet history. He said fine. But when we got there, he had erased it all. It was all deleted. He knew there was nothing I could prove now.

Basically the rest of this past week has been a big blur. I printed phone records, bank records (both our joint account and his account) google searches and map searches. Many, many searches for stripclubs in our area and the areas where he was traveling to. But he swears he never went to one that I didn't know about. There are HUGE inconsistencies with his stories. There are MANY withdrawals from his account - $200 each time he's out of town - but he's still used our joint account to charge for gas, food, restaurants etc.

But he swears up and down that sometimes he just searches things and "thinks about" going but he never follows through. He had a problem with porn and stripclubs and that's the real reason he's not attracted to me, but since he's said that he's also taken it back and said it's not true, he doesn't have a "problem".

I'm just sick. When I'm alone all my insecurities come out, but when I'm with him it's just so easy to believe him.

Right now I'm just trying to do the math - between what he told me he spent at the last club he was at and the amount that he pulled from his account, plus what was left in his wallet and the other $80 that he said he still had left (he showed me)... it doesn't add up AT ALL.

ClearEyes12 posted 2/3/2014 12:59 PM

More, sorry it's just so hard to get all the details straight. We had a plan to sit down and go over all the material so he could either come clean or explain it. I was really bracing for him to come clean on things. I told him I wouldn't leave him if he just told the truth. Nothing new was revealed. Just more lies, it seems. I'm sure he's confident that I can't prove anything, because I can't.

I had thought he would be nice about it since he knew I was having a hard time trusting him with all the lies he'd already told. But he was so defensive and mean, and really agitated and hyper. Even the next day when I brought him his cell phone to ask him why he got a text at 2:13am from someone not in his contacts list... he yelled at me that I said I wouldn't go through his things anymore (I never said that! I said I didn't WANT TO HAVE TO).

I just take this as another sign that he's hiding things from me.

He admits he painted a bad picture with the lying and the searching, mapquesting, etc. But it's all just so innocent. He was just searching "texting hookup apps" and Tinder for funsies! He never downloaded them or did anything about it. It was just curiosity! Or maybe he was "mad enough" at me to look it up but not mad enough to go through with it.
Of course it's all my fault – he says I pulled away from him "months ago" and he told me about this.

yeah. I did pull away from him. Because of all the strip clubs and google searches.

:(

[This message edited by ClearEyes12 at 1:12 PM, February 3rd (Monday)]

norabird posted 2/3/2014 13:19 PM

Yes, he is probably still lying--that defensiveness is a bad sign. I'm so sorry. He is trying to shift the blame to you but guess what--it's all on him! Focus on yourself and on your son, and, given how he is acting right now, you may want to have a consultation with a lawyer to find out your rights. He is being dishonest so try if you can to detach yourself from your desire to believe him when he is talking around in circles. Your gut is way more trustworthy than this guy.

By the way--your subject line has it all wrong! The onus is not on you to do something to get over it, but on him to give you what you need in order to rebuild trust.

[This message edited by norabird at 1:20 PM, February 3rd (Monday)]

ClearEyes12 posted 2/3/2014 13:26 PM

We've been together 20 years. I can't even begin to understand how I could unravel myself from him.

ClearEyes12 posted 2/3/2014 13:37 PM

You're so right about the title of the thread. I guess what my real question is, how do I get over never knowing the truth? I honestly have no way of ever proving the things he's done. I only have my suspicions. He says my mind is running away with me. He said I'm good at digging up information but not good at putting it together.

norabird posted 2/3/2014 13:43 PM

He is gaslighting you--there is a thread in general about this on I think the second page. You cannot let him sweep this under the rug. And you CAN unravel yourself from him if you need to. Believe that. You have a choice here to decide what you want. You don't have to choose to leave, or not right now, but it is an option. If you are swinging in the wind because you can't 'prove' anything...let me tell you, your gut is more accurate than any Private Investigator. There are keylogging programs you can install on the computer if you really need to see something concrete, but I think you know that he is feeding you lies and that you may sound crazy in your assertions when he starts attacking them, but that doesn't mean you're wrong. It only means he isn't treating you with the respect and honesty that should be at the center of a real partnership.

ClearEyes12 posted 2/3/2014 13:53 PM

He says he's so sorry... our kids are having a hard time right now because they can tell that we're not doing well. We are normally SO close. We've been together since we were kids ourselves. My daughter has been crying and asking if we're going to get a divorce. This caused him to go sit in the basement and cry. I found him there.

I don't know that he'll continue doing anything but I do know that he has done bad things in the past. Will I ever be able to get over it, not know what it was? I don't know if I should bother with a keylogger if I don't think he'll do it again?

I am so upset... I don't even know how to do a 180 (yes, I read the entire healing library). I just don't know what I'm doing and when I'm around him it just goes back to normal. It's when I'm at work or he's away from the house I start to panic and think about all the possibilities and money spent and lies.

hopefulmother posted 2/3/2014 13:55 PM

My fWH and I were BfF for 20 yrs. Together for 14 now. This is not normal.

He most likely is a SA and that clearly effects your relationship. So at the most he needs IC and when he is well into that start MC.

He is lying...this is the normal crap they all use. Unfortunately the only way to get the truth is to leave him for a while or to really catch him in the act.

You can't get over this...it is just going to always be there and turn to bitterness and resentment for him.

Don't let him make you feel crazy...there is more to it.

ClearEyes12 posted 2/3/2014 13:55 PM

He says the only thing he is guilty of doing is being selfish. he says he was trying to hide the money so I wouldn't know how much he was spending on himself instead of the family. Now he wants to take us all on a vacation (we haven't been in 6 years) and finish the bathroom reno and all the things he should have been doing.

ClearEyes12 posted 2/3/2014 14:08 PM

Just tell me this. Do I keep asking him to tell me the truth? Will he ever break down and tell me? What can I do to get it out of him?

Edith posted 2/3/2014 14:15 PM

Hi ClearEyes,
I do not think you will ever be "over it." It has been 4 years for me, and I am not even close. Infidelity becomes a part of your past experiences and changes you (or at least it changed me). I will never be the same, I am 100% convinced of that. Some of it for the better, some not so much.

It sounds to me like you need to delineate boundaries. Like NO STRIP CLUBS EVER!! I think that is entirely reasonable given the situation. Also no private slush fund (my husband also had one, ended up giving an ATM card to OW.... ). Draw your line in the sand. And there is no such thing as too long a marriage that it cannot end. Most importantly, your H needs to understand that the marriage MIGHT end. Otherwise, what motivation would he have to change his behavior? Probably not a whole lot.

This is such a long and painful journey. I wish you peace. Please look into the 180 and start to figure out what your requirements are. I might even consider a polygraph if I were you. You cannot R if you don't even have the full truth. Take care.

E.

hopefulmother posted 2/3/2014 14:15 PM

Trust your intuition.

Has there been other phone calls or texting after a decent hr from your phone logs?

Most likely he knows you are on to something and is trying to calm the waters for a bit.

ClearEyes12 posted 2/3/2014 14:25 PM

I was hoping someone would suggest a polygraph. I do think this is an issue I will press with him.
I need to know. I can't go on not knowing the truth.

hopefulmother - yes, there have been other calls/texts at inappropriate times. We went through all of his contacts. I only have the call records from September 2013. I have requested November and December be sent to me.

I forgot he also deleted all of his call and text records from December. He did this just two days ago, claiming he thought I had looked at them all. I did but I had just glanced, I didn't have a chance to really study or copy any of them down. He wanted a "clean slate" phone that he could hand over "at the end of the month" for me to look at each month. I was pissed :( He's never at fault, though, it's always a misunderstanding.

I have USCellular. Is there any way to get text records? I don't have those.

It's made more difficult by the nature of his side business. He buys and sells equipment and parts from eBay and Craigslist, so a lot of these numbers are legit business. I have tried following up on all of them but most are dead ends.

norabird posted 2/3/2014 14:30 PM

Getting back to normal is really just rugsweeping. There is a saying here that sometimes you have to be willing to lose the M in order to save it. In other words, only when you detach and he sees there are possible consequences can change happen.

ClearEyes12 posted 2/3/2014 14:37 PM

Logically, I understand that. But I still love him so much. I love our little life. I don't want to lost any part of it.

Have I done damage by letting him back in, even just a little? We spent the day as a family yesterday (I really needed to heal my little babies hearts - they have been so sad and stressed out!) We went ice skating with his brother's family and even hugged/kissed a few times. Later when I was in the shower he "peeked" in and me and I told him I was upset - that I wasn't ready for that yet and he had no right. But, we're speaking nicely to each other and hugging/kissing....

Do I need to stop that? Is there any way to go back and get any leverage at all?

Sorry that I am so desperate for all these answers. I am SO LOST.

Edith posted 2/3/2014 14:51 PM

Oh ClearEyes,
The good thing about the 180 is that if you "fall off," you can get right back on! As part of the 180, I would eliminate any conversation except for child and finance related issues. Stop cooking for him, do not do his laundry, do not do the little niceties most of us do for our spouse. Stop all of it. And start focusing on yourself. Pick up an old hobby or start a new one. Start going out. When he asks where you are going, your answer is "out." When will you be back? "I don't know." Get dressed up with full makeup and go somewhere. Even if only to the mall to walk around a few hours or sit in the car and listen to music.

It sounds to me like you are in shock. I think when I was at the stage where you are, I was convinced my M was the best thing EVER and I had to do anything and everything to hang onto it. It took a very long time for me to face the realities that my M had huge, deep, cavernous flaws that needed to be addressed before it could continue. Some of them have been addressed, but not all (thus the reason for my incomplete healing after 4 yrs). I can imagine that a husband who frequents strip clubs and engages in disgusting behavior with God knows what kind of women is not an ideal husband. I do not mean to criticize him, but I am just stating a fact. Your feelings are important! You do not like him going to strip clubs, but yet you acquiesce and say as long as he tells you it is okay. It is NOT OKAY!! I did very similar things regarding my H's "friendship" with OW. I told him I wanted him to tell me when he went to her location for work. He almost always "forgot..."

Feel free to PM me if you need to talk or vent. I know how it feels, and now is the time to stand up for yourself. You deserve so much more than he has given you. Please take care of yourself.

E.

hathnofury posted 2/3/2014 14:57 PM

My heart breaks for you. You must be in tremendous shock and pain. It is difficult for me to give you my 2 cents because I know exactly where you are right now, and I know you may not be ready to hear what you need to do.

I am going to bump a thread for you. It's about WS that is into prostitutes and anonymous encounters. It will tell you all the special considerations for this kind of cheating. I know right now you think it is just strippers...but the evidence you have submitted suggests otherwise. Many strippers are also prostitutes. And given the level of gaslighting he has done with phone and computer records, he probably has been utilizing anonymous hookup sources as well. Bare minimum, he was headed in this direction and is more than likely well implanted in it.

Short version, you will need to get STD testing and see a lawyer ASAP, regardless of what you eventually choose to do. And start looking for appropriate IC to support yourself during this time and what's coming, which will be even more traumatic than now.

To answer your original question, you may never know the full truth. You may have more DDays over the next few years, whether you to try R or not. He is not capable of coming clean at this time, or any time soon for that matter, and may not ever. If that is a deal breaker for you, that is ok. If it is not, it still a whopper to process.

Best of luck to you. Please keep posting. You will get good support here.

jb3199 posted 2/3/2014 15:05 PM

First of all, sorry that you are here.

I need to know. I can't go on not knowing the truth.

Those are your words, and in my opinion, are the correct words. How do we ever rebuild trust, and a healthy relationship, when we don't trust the one that we are supposed to be the closest to?

ClearEyes, if you are not willing to accept the possibility of losing your marriage, and won't stand up to that pressure, then it is hard for you to help yourself. You will be in a perpetual game of "chicken", when your husband knows that you will be the first to back down. With that knowledge, he has very little chance of ever telling you the entire truth.

What he needs to understand, what he needs to know in his HEART, is that you WOULD leave the marriage if things stay the same. He needs to know that you need to trust your partner, and if you can not get that from him....

Then the ball is in his court. You will have made your demands loud and clear---you need to feel safe in your marriage. He has the ability to build that trust, but it only comes with honesty and hard work. That means that both of you will have to discuss things that are uncomfortable. If you are able to get to that point, things can improve. But if he stays on the current path, you have to ask yourself--"Am I willing to accept this for the rest of my life?"

You have to ask yourself what you are willing to accept. Personally, I wouldn't/couldn't stay in a relationship where I felt that my closest confidante did not have my best interests in mind.

[This message edited by jb3199 at 5:48 AM, February 4th (Tuesday)]

WarpSpeed posted 2/3/2014 15:06 PM

(((ClearEyes12)))

First, breathe.

What you are going through is mind numbingly dizzying. This person you have and want a life with is telling you one lie after another and it is painful and disorienting. It doesn't seem like it right now, but the world will stop spinning in time.

Take care of yourself. Try to eat, drink water and get what sleep you can. This is a long trip you've been forced into taking and you have to take care of yourself.

I only have my suspicions.

You've got more than that ClearEyes. You've got thousands of folks on this site that will tell you that what you are describing is far more than suspicions and is clearly a wandering spouse tossing one lie after another your way.

Folks here will help you work through this, but know that there are not any quick easy resolutions. Try to work with that knowledge so that you can try to let yourself regain some equillibrium.

Also, know that any of your research, questioning, digging or snooping is 100% justified and don't accept any guilt or remorse for working hard to discover what he ought to be telling you to help you to heal.

Either he is going to work with you by being honest, or you'll spend the rest of your marriage distrustful, uneasy and snooping or you'll end the marriage.

Those are pretty much the three options. Tell him option two is the only one not on the table. Mean it. And be prepared for a long road to recovery. BUT, know that you are strong and you will recover.

hang in there

hopefulmother posted 2/3/2014 15:07 PM

Can you access the records on-line? The phone records. Then, you will see if it is one person or One-night stands.