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Crushed15Feb13 posted 2/4/2014 13:16 PM

So WW and I went to MC this morning because after last round of trickle-truthing, I thought we needed some guidance to get back on track. In the last TT, I learned about the all-night out-of-town hotel stays and the fact the affair was 5 yrs not 4 yrs, and began as an ONS, not a bunch of coffee meetings that lead to the slippery slope of an LTA. I was really hurt and felt like it was another DDay all over again.

So in this meeting, the MC suggests I am the cause of the problem, due to my inability to let go of details. And further, she cautioned me against asking for complete Honesty and Truthfulness as a condition to reconciling because Honesty and Truthfulness mean different things to different people - they even mean different things to us at different times of our lives.

This strikes me as contrary to the information I've read here and in affair self-help books, who usually say something like, the WS must be remorseful enough to be completely open and honest and answer every question truthfully until there are no more questions, in order to help the BS heal, and to begin to restore trust in the WS.

I'm confused but want to stay open minded. Is this perspective common among MCs? I'm not sure how I'm expected to forgive if I don't even get to ask enough questions to understand what I'm forgiving? Further, can any forgiveness I offer be valid in my WW's eyes, since she knows I would be forgiving under false pretenses- that there may still be painful truths she is hiding from me.

It doesn't make sense to me, but this IS my first rodeo, after all.

[This message edited by Crushed15Feb13 at 2:07 PM, February 4th (Tuesday)]

KickedintheGut posted 2/4/2014 13:19 PM

I'm sorry this is so short, but I am on my way out the door.

I would suggest telling your MC to take a long walk off a short pier.

Seriously?!? Honesty is honesty. Period.

[This message edited by KickedintheGut at 1:20 PM, February 4th (Tuesday)]

MoreWould posted 2/4/2014 13:22 PM

Fire this MC immediately. You need what YOU need to feel safe, and if this ain't it, she ain't it.

You might start by telling her what a great job she's doing and never scheduling another appointment. When she calls ask why not, tell her that was just your form of Honesty and Truth.

Jeez, some people can't seem to even earn the oxygen they consume, much less the food.

Rebreather posted 2/4/2014 13:27 PM

While many ICs and MCs caution against getting too much in the way of details, that seems to be different than what this person is saying. What I'm hearing, is your MC says the truth doesn't matter. And, it does. Not only for you, but I have found the truth matters probably even more to the healing of the wayward. A wayward cannot be remorseful until they have laid bare all you need to know. They have to face their ugly acts and much as you need to know the truth of your life.

I'd tell your MC they are wrong and find a new one.

obliquestrat posted 2/4/2014 13:30 PM

Another vote for changing therapists: do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

I'm selecting insured ones, and leading by "interviewing" with questions about which books THEY HAVE READ (as opposed to ones that they say seemed to have helped others), which methods they prefer. And specifically pointed questions about where they stand on fact-finding and such.

foolishlycluless posted 2/4/2014 13:41 PM

I agree with other posters - you need to look for a new MC.

IMO, truth and honesty (however defined) will be the foundation of your reconciliation. You can't rebuild your trust if your WW is not being truthful. She should willingly give you the details that you seek. Without a strong foundation, your relationship will crumble.

Good luck.

Lovedyoumore posted 2/4/2014 13:45 PM

Let us all hold hands and sing Kum By Ya. I'm OK, you're OK. No need for the truth, we can just go live in lala land and hold nobody accountable for their actions because we do not need to know their actions.

How in the world do either of you start to heal without telling the truth? It gnaws and festers until....wait....you need therapy again. This is a perpetual life of dysfunction.

This MC is worthless. Find an expert in healing marriages, not coddling the WS.

KatyDo posted 2/4/2014 13:46 PM

Agree with all the people posting. It actually is a kind of psychological injury, being told hurtful things like this don't matter, or don't need to be dealt with honestly. That's why I left our last MC. It's re-victimizing.

hopingforhappy posted 2/4/2014 13:48 PM

You know, I guess you can have a philosophical discussion about the meaning of Honesty and Truthfulness, spend a lot of time analyzing small differences, etc. But it does not sound as if you were asking for picky details--you were asking for some simple, basic facts. 5 year A, 4 year A, so what???? Mere semantics--NOT! You are totally entitled to the basic facts about your WW's A and I don't think the facts you are asking for are open for interpretation. We all know the difference between 4 and 5, coffee and sex. Not that hard, unless you don't want to be open and honest. If your WW doesn't want to get on the same page with you regarding Truth and Honesty, then she must not want to stay M to you. If you were asking her to be honest about the weather the day it started or what color dress she was wearing, it might be different.

I agree you should look of a new MC.

Brandon808 posted 2/4/2014 14:39 PM

the MC suggests I am the cause of the problem, due to my inability to let go of details
Oh, really? I would say this...
I learned about the all-night out-of-town hotel stays and the fact the affair was 5 yrs not 4 yrs, and began as an ONS, not a bunch of coffee meetings that lead to the slippery slope of an LTA.
...is a pretty big damn detail.

And further, she cautioned me against asking for complete Honesty and Truthfulness as a condition to reconciling because Honesty and Truthfulness mean different things to different people - they even mean different things to us at different times of our lives.
My brain is going to short circuit and melt. I cannot begin to express how asinine this is. Your WW had an A that lasted 5 f'n years! Seriously, how much freakin' gray area on "Honesty" and "Truthfulness" can there be when it comes to that?

Yet another story of a MC who has their head further up their arse than the WS does/did.

Oh, news flash...if you start debating "Gee, what does Honesty and Truthfulness really mean?" then you're probably talking to somebody who looks for justifications for being the exact opposite. We're not talking about going around like Jim Carrey in Liar, Liar and blurting out tactless comments because they are "true".
How much personal interpretation can come into play with
"How long did the A last?"
"Four years, but there was a one-night stand one year before that and we stayed in contact but didn't starting having sex again a year later."
As if that somehow negates that year? Is that the MC's idea of "details"?

LosferWords posted 2/4/2014 14:45 PM

I'd have to concur with the other posters here, Crushed.

the MC suggests I am the cause of the problem

That is a huge red flag right there.

There are plenty of MC fish in the sea.

Best of luck to you.

Needadrink posted 2/4/2014 14:49 PM

My MC suggested I should embrace my new H but not be allowed to grieve for the one I had lost! Needless to say he's no longer my MC. I suggest you get rid.. If we are not allowed to work through the pain how on earth can we get over it..
Would love to know where this moron got his/hers qualifications. Wishing you all the best in your recovery......

Crushed15Feb13 posted 2/4/2014 14:59 PM

Given this unanimous reaction, I feel like I MUST have misunderstood the MC. I haven't had the chance to do this yet, but I'm going to double check with W to make sure she heard the same thing.


obliquestrat posted 2/4/2014 15:03 PM

In the book "Not 'Just Friends'", data-backed reports of similar counselor attitudes are reported. It's widespread.

Crushed15Feb13 posted 2/4/2014 15:12 PM

In the book "Not 'Just Friends'", data-backed reports of similar counselor attitudes are reported. It's widespread.

Where in that book? I'm sure I've read it but don't recall that topic...

obliquestrat posted 2/4/2014 15:17 PM

Well, there's an entire section -

Do You Have the Right Spouse but the Wrong Therapist?

Glass, Shirley (2007-11-01). NOT "Just Friends": Rebuilding Trust and Recovering Your Sanity After Infidelity (p. 132). Free Press. Kindle Edition.

Then a box quote -

Only 17 percent of the therapists I surveyed agreed with my position statement “The betrayed spouse who becomes hypervigilant and suspicious about the whereabouts of the marital partner after an affair ends should be supported by the therapist in the attempt to track down clues to further acts of infidelity.”

Glass, Shirley (2007-11-01). NOT "Just Friends": Rebuilding Trust and Recovering Your Sanity After Infidelity (p. 153). Free Press. Kindle Edition.

Just to name a couple.

unfound posted 2/4/2014 15:35 PM

Honesty and Truthfulness mean different things to different people - they even mean different things to us at different times of our lives
.

I think your MC is confusing facts with opinions/feelings. Facts are facts. Our opinions or feelings about those facts can change, but the fact still remains.

I did a lot of drugs way back in the day. fact.

Then I thought it was okay. Now I think it was stupid.

Doesn't change the FACT that I did. a. lot. of. drugs.

The truth never changes when it comes to facts.

Honesty and truthfulness are the foundations of R. It's the foundation of any healthy intimate relationship. Would it be possible for your MC to be productive in your healing if you weren't truthful and honest with her???

MC suggests I am the cause of the problem, due to my inability to let go of details

If the detail was what color socks he was wearing during the 5 year affair, then yes, that would probably be a problem in your moving forward in healing. The things you're not able to move forward from right now, are foundations of the A. The difference between 4 years and 5 years is not a detail. Affairs are made up of details, and if this "detail" (and the fact that he lied about it) is something that you need to hold onto until you can process it or come to terms with, or hold onto until you feel he's remorseful for keeping it from you, then so be it.

Crushed15Feb13 posted 2/4/2014 16:13 PM

OK, here is what my wife heard the therapist say:

With regard to honesty and truth, what I heard her say is, truth and honesty don’t change, but relying on details as proof of truth, doesn’t work because our (everyone included) memory of the details changes. She used the phrase “you need to stop chasing the details” and I found her choice of the word chasing, significant.

That changes my initial post slightly, however it still leaves me feeling unsettled, as I'm thinking its knowing the details that will make me feel safe, or at least I can learn them now and get the hurt out of the way, so they can't come up and bite me at some unsuspecting point in the future.

Also, I'm bother by the word "chasing". If I got all the truth in one dose, I wouldn't have to "chase", would I? Its the very fact the my W has been trickle-truthing me all this time that leads me to believe there must still be something more, and so far this has been the case. It's a great argument for complete and brutal honesty right up front.

[This message edited by Crushed15Feb13 at 4:16 PM, February 4th (Tuesday)]

realitybites posted 2/4/2014 16:16 PM

I know this is not a great question but my first thought was to ask the therapist "have you had an affair?"

And then watch them squirm or get mad at YOU for asking that question.

Cuz it seems like alot of people who don't understand how important truth is are the ones who have things to hide or did things they don't want people to know about.

Just sayin'.

sisoon posted 2/4/2014 16:50 PM

relying on details as proof of truth, doesn’t work because our (everyone included) memory of the details changes.

Umm...how did you feel about your W when she shared that with you? (My guess is at least 'pretty good'.)

Here's my experience: I asked a lot of questions. I asked a lot of questions multiple times.

The very fact that my answered my Qs - aside from truth or falsehood - helped rebuild my trust.

The fact that some of the answers were very uncomplimentary to my W helped rebuild my trust.

The fact that she gave the same answers multiple times to the same question helped rebuild my trust.

The fact that she answered helped me accept that she was acknowledging her responsibility helped rebuild my trust.

Being able to see her body language when I asked and she answered helped me believer her and that helped rebuild my trust.

Etc., etc., etc., etc.

I think your MC is steering you wrong.

And I'm with realitybites WRT your MC.

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