SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

So I haven't posted this because I'm afraid to hear the things I think I might hear but I really need help. WH also reads SI so I'm sure he will read this as well, not sure how I feel about that...

Anyway, 2/15 I was watching something on WH phone with DS. It closed and I went to open it back up. When I started typing in the browser it brough up this flirtforfree website. My heart jumped into my throat so I went to his history and was not happy (understatement)with what I found.

Now a little backstory, I haven't made a lot of requests of WH to R other than NC, no more cheating (DUH) and to be honest with me. I did request that he not look at porn as it was too similar to what he did with OW for most of the A. He says no problem, he doesnt' really look at it anyway and asks if it's ok to read erotic stories. I say yes as long as they don't have anything about cheating.

So back to the history; there are tons of listings for a specific porn site (along with the erotic story website he goes to and SI threads mixed in). I didn't confront him that day because this was supposed to be our V-day; DS was going to the ILs and we were going out.

I managed to hold it together until the morning. When I told him what I found he admitted it and said he "wasn't thinking". At that point I was NOT ready to have a big discussion about it so I told him he needs to think about that and he needs to think about why he is now looking at porn when he told me it wouldn't be a problem.

Last night after IC I realized we had to talk about it. A lot of what he was saying didn't make sense. What finally came out was that he did remember I asked him not to but he didn't think it was a big deal at the time. He also said he didn't always "use" it but that he sometimes just looked. TBH, I think that's worse! I have no idea if he truly understands how serious this is. Not necessarily the porn but that he lied to me and thought it was no big deal to do something I asked him not to do.

This morning he apologized for breaking my trust and lying to me. He said he hates it and doesn't understand why he keeps doing it.

I told him I feel like I don't know him anymore and maybe I never did. That I wouldn't be here if I didn't love him but a Person can only take so much.

Ok, so I'm sorry this is SO long but I wanted to get it all out. Any thoughts? Advice?? I'm really floored by this. I guess I was naive but I really never thought he would do anything new to hurt me.

Oh AML, I am sorry. You are going through a lot, and now you have to deal with this!

Hopefully Blakesteele will weigh in on this, because I think it is helpful to hear from a man's perspective. But, I will say that I would be concerned with his justification for using it (not thinking?), and his seeming inability to stop using it -- especially when he knew it was a grey area, or perhaps going against your wishes. That is a breach of trust, and the last thing you need.

Also I am curious, why did you say the stories are ok? Do you believe that? Why not just have your H's sex life be between the two of you? That seems far healthier; he is not "entitled" to use any kind of porn if you guys are being intimate. He may be so used to using it that it is normalized, but many men don't look at or use porn at all and have deeper, happier sex lives because of it. But like I said, I hope a dude weighs in here.

Is your H in IC?

[This message edited by bionicgal at 8:37 AM, February 19th (Wednesday)]

He said he hates it and doesn't understand why he keeps doing it.

If I were doing things I hated doing without knowing why I did them I would want to address that. This should be a ripe area for him and some IC.

Sorry AML, it sucks.

I see more than porn here though.

He is lying (by omission at best)

Using a flirt site indicates to me he is trolling for possible A's.

And the lame " I don't know why I do this"

He needs to sit down in IC until he figures out his issues. He is not a safe partner for you.

You said you requested things from him. Are there consequences? Are these things deal breakers? He remembers you asking, but he didn't think it was a big deal?

That is lousy, IMO, you ask for what you need and he thinks it's no big deal?

He is still absorbed in what works for him. Selfish and entitled.

So he apologized, that means nothing...he needs to start doing some work.

What do you want and need? You need to draw a line in the sand and be ready to stick to it.

(((hugs)))

[This message edited by karmahappens at 8:43 AM, February 19th (Wednesday)]

I'm so sorry for what you're going through. I know that feeling, when you find something, and your heart sinks.... and then you have to sit on it for a while. It's heart wrenching

It sounds like you need a whole lot more boundries in place. Is IC or MC taking place?

I've always believed porn is a serious issue. I shake my head and think "just give it time" when I hear someone believing it's acceptable and harmless. Does you WH have a smart phone? My WBF has an iPhone, and he volunteered to have me activate the parental controls. He has no access to the computers at home, unless I'm right by his side. And if he has to go on it, he has to wait for me to be available. He's not whipped. He lied and betrayed me...so now this is our life. Trust me when I say... I don't want to live like this. But the alternative is living in fear every day, that he's lying to me. This has given me a great deal of peace, so yes, very worth it.

I think when a WH or WW gets caught, their first response is to deny or pretend ignorance. It's an insult to us, because we know better. It sounds like the bottom line with your WH is he needs to be a complete open book, and have all access to those things taken away. You're not his mom. But he's essentially told you he can't stop himself. He can stop, he just needs to want it bad enough. Maybe seeing an IC would help him. But in the meantime, you need to do what gives you peace.

((((Hugs))))

Thank you all for the quick responses!

BG-the stories were ok with me because they were not pictures of real people. I had no problem with MB, just with him looking at pics/videos. I may need to rethink this as what you say has a lot of truth to it.

He is in IC and we have just started MC. Things actually started to look up a bit but I think that's because I really have set no "requirements" for R. I put things out there, make requests and then get upset when he doesn't do things I want or does things I don't want. The only "dealbreakers" for me were any renewed contact or additional cheating. This was a request but it's one he readily agreed to and said wouldn't be a problem. Clearer boundaries are definitely in order.

You said you requested things from him. Are there consequences? Are these things deal breakers? He remembers you asking, but he didn't think it was a big deal?

That is lousy, IMO, you ask for what you need and he thinks it's no big deal?

He is still absorbed in what works for him. Selfish and entitled.

So he apologized, that means nothing...he needs to start doing some work.

This is exactly how I feel.

On a side note, the flirting site was actually a pop-up from the porn site. It happened to me when I was looking.

If you both know reqs for R and know what the consequences of not meeting them are, it's relatively easy to monitor progress. Reqs help you both, IMO.

What is keeping you from setting requirements and consequences?

Sisoon-I think it's fear. Fear that he won't come through and then I will have to be the "bad guy" and enforce whatever consequences are in place. I know that's ridiculous, but a lot of what I've been doing the past 9 mos is fear driven I think.

I also really didn't have a lot of requirements for R but I'm rethinking it now. My expectations were NC and that he work on his shit.

As far as I know, there hasn't been any contact (they still work together so incidental contact happens, he ignores when she has said anything not work related, nothing since Nov). He really seems to want nothing to do with her now.

As for working on his shit/communicating with me, that had been slow going. Mostly words, not a lot of action.

I never set a consequence for the no porn request because I REALLY didn't think he would do it. So naive!! He told me it wouldn't be a problem and I believed him. Now that I know it is, I'm definitely going to rethink this whole lack of set consequences

AML, is this somewhat related to what you said yesterday? Are you afraid if you DEMAND what you deserve that he will balk? Fail you again?

You can't control him and you can't control the future. No rugsweeping, young lady!!

Pussyfooting around in R just creates more problems. I swear it's true! You gotta go big and go strong.

I get it, AML. Fear is awful - but you can do things you're scared of doing.

I'm glad you're rethinking requirements - they'll really make your life easier and better.

Here's the thing - if you give in to your fear now, you're dooming yourself to more fear (perhaps a lifetime of it). If you press the issue now, you may lose your H - but if he steps up you both come up as big winners.

Just another way of saying what Rebreather says....

AML04....have been praying regularly for you and Mr. AML04 for days now. I sensed your struggle...that something was not right. My prayer was not answered like I thought it would be...but trust this is what is meant to be. Not for me to determine what that is to be, but hard for me to understand this latest stress invited into your M by your husband. Prayer works....just not always in ways I think it should.

Bionicgal....too much hope placed in me, but thank you.

AML04....our journey into R is so very similar. I, too, have had a really short list of regs for my wife for R to continue. No adultery, radical honesty, no TT'ing and NC.

Sisoon suggests the list be more lengthy than that. I can see merit in what he says....but have not done as he suggested. The following is more a discussion than a profession of wisdom;

My wife NOW knows how destructive her choices were to all involved, including herself. I also NOW know how deceptive and capable of lying she is. No reg list would be complete enough for her to NOT choose adultery again. If list and words were ever enough....our vows would have sufficed to avoid adultery being invited into our marriage in such a bold and deliberate way. She is a SAHM with plenty of time to pull off adultery again. A short list gives her the opportunity to bring to ME what she is willing to do for our M and our family.....opportunity to show me how creative she, herself can be to repent from and rebuild the damage done from her affair. Efforts towards that, or lack there of...speak louder to me than me checking off a "to-do" list of sorts. Honestly, this has been a mixed bag of results. She picked and chooses what she will and wont do from the How To Help Your Spouse book.....but she has focused on COA studies. Sometimes she rembers to convey her daily schedule or when she sees fOM's truck, sometimes I need to ask her (but those are NOT full regs of R). What BS wouldn't want more from their fWS....but my wife has proven she is very good at outwardly appearing to be a loving, supportive wife. A robust list would, in my opinion, allow her to more easily relax.....like she could just check off activities, then stop short of actually finding answers to her "whys". I so want to be married to a woman that wants that for herself....not for me. It is not my role, nor do I want the role, to judge the quality of my wife. That is not what I want in a marriage. I want to trust my wife....trust that she has my back, trust that she will be a good mom to our girls, trust she will not do things that intentionally hurt herself or limit her or our marriages potential. A list from me says that somehow "I know best". How to Help book tells her what is required to repair the damage she did to me. I am confident that the few things on my regs for R list are the core of what I need to heal. Radical honesty is not just with me....it is with herself. If she honors that request she will have no choice but to look inside herself and cipher out her motivations.....and I see her starting to do that.

I have spent most of my married life co-dependently interacting with my wife....removing opportunity after opportunity for her to either ask for my help or reject my request for help. Removing those so that she never has a chance to reject me. So I am open to my stance being unhealthy and a throw back to my old ways. I think it not because of the boldness in which I ask her questions now, how direct I am with things such as initiaiting sex, asking her how she is feeling, expressing my feelings to her and asking her to respond to those feelings in ways she honestly wants to. That "radical honesty" requirement is a big one.....I still have fear to interact so boldly with my wife. Fear that by doing so she will reject me. But my GREATER fear is that I do revert back to my old ways and allowing our old patterns to re-establish.

So my fear of this change is GREATER THAN the fear of staying as I was. Thus change WILL TAKE PLACE. Proof? It has taken place. More change is needed....but believe I have the tools to continue to make this happen.

Fear is real. Real courage is needed to operate in this new marriage of ours. Something inside your husband is causing him fear.....he is too afraid of giving up this known destructive action by him to try something new. He has got to figure out what that fear is and face it, feel it, express it.

It is quite something to sit in IC session and have a therapist ask you "Do you often feel loved by your wife?".....and you are left in shock as this is quite possibly the first time you ever stop and think about it. What made me settle for what I settled for pre-A out of a M? Was my porn use keeping my needs and feelings sedated just enough to NOT get in touch with my feelings of isolation within my own marriage?

Which brings me to porn and its affect on those who use it and the relationships they are in.

Very passionate about this...but from the abuser standpoint. I have taken the tests...not a SA, but a person who had strong habits of using porn. I would say porn-addict, therapist said no. I used it as often as some people smoke...so I think addict is an appropriate term even if formal tests dont confirm this. Lord help me....I didn't even have shame in this sin. Lots of reasons...none of them good.

What your husband is choosing to do is to deliberately indulge in activities that hurt himself and his marriage. He knows that.

When I told him what I found he admitted it and said he "wasn't thinking".

NOPE.....no longer good enough.

Time for radical honesty and intentional living....coping skills are no longer going to be used.

NO LONGER GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME TO USE AS AN EXCUSE TO USE PORN.

NO LONGER GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME TO DENY MY FEELINGS OR KEEP THEM FROM MY WIFE. (some big factors for me to use porn)

NO LONGER GOOD ENOUGH FOR MY WIFE TO COMMIT ADULTERY.

NO LONGER GOOD ENOUGH FOR MY WIFE TO DENY HER FEELINGS OR KEEP THEM TO HERSELF. (some big factors in adultery being an option for her).

Damn it!!!! For decades I used porn so regularly, with and without my wife, that I never stopped to really think why I was doing it. It was only after I stopped....got some distance from it (6 weeks to be exact) that I was actually able to uncover my motivation driving it. It was NOT sex or lack there of with my wife. It was NOT above average sex drive. It was NOT "every man does it, its normal". For me, it was a desire to fill in a relationship hole that had been dug into me at age 12....and the abandonment trauma I experienced when my parents divorced and my Dad disappeared completely from my life. It was also around the same time I found my first playboy.

I am not blaming my parents, not excusing my destructive actions on anyone but me. What I am pointing out is that for decades I was ignorant to the damage.

My wife, although knowing full on adultery was damaging and destructive, started her affair with the same sort of ignorance. Yes, we can both trace back to the start...see steps and flags we missed to a healthier life....but we both did the best we could given our knowledge.

Point is.....myself and mrs blakesteele, yourself and mr. AML04 all know better....are absolutely aware of risks we are now taking by endulging in any and all of our destructive activities.

Ignorance is no longer any sort of valid excuse.

So, Sisoon, I just have not warmed up to the idea of expanded lists of regs for R.

I am 19 months out....we are in therapy, done both a Weekend to Remember, Retrouvaille weekend and committed to the follow up weekends, and are reading and praying on our own....even doing workbook type things together. There are things that my wife does or does not do that don't sit as well with me that I believe would help our M....but two therapists have warned me that my wife and I are very different people, with very different processing styles....cautioned me to falsely assume that just because she is not working and healing in ways I am doing doesn't mean she is not doing them.

AML04....I don't think your short list of regs for R are the issue.

The issue is mr AML04's apparent lack of introspection to tie together the basic links of his current behavior with that of his old behavior.

He needs to adopt a "when in doubt, don't do it" attitude with regards to anything remotely associated with his bad behavior.

I am speaking for the "user" standpoint when I say this....not chastising my wife (though certainly this attitude is one she needs to adopt and embrace too.).

Example: I am really into the series House of Cards on Netflix. Kate Mara is on that. Recently, there were two scenes involving her....one where she was having sex, another were topless photos of her were displayed. My old urges wanted me to stare and absorb the images.....my new urges had me "bouncing my eyes". I felt VERY uncomfortable with those scenes. This is a new-to-me feeling.

I have seen the pain I have caused my wife with my use of porn. I have seen and felt the pain I caused myself by my use of porn. There was a time when I, and my wife, were oblivious to the pain it was causing.....we are no longer oblivious.

And this is where wisdom comes in. When we have the intellectual knowledge to do something different and the courage to actually do it.

Long response to your post.....I get this way when I feel the pain of others.

I hope I provided some comfort to you.

I am so very sorry for this.

I hurt on both sides of this post.....both from the BS and from the side of making really destructive choices.

So much pain involved here.

Society tells us porn is okay....like beer. Some use it just fine, others abuse it. I just don't buy that at all.....but, for decades, I did.

God have mercy on us all.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 2:34 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)]

Rebreather/Sisoon/Blakesteele-really good responses from you all with a lot of excellent advice. I can't do them justice responding from my phone right now but know that I will.

I don't want to be afraid anymore. I need to get my power back.

Yeah....phone texting sucks....I always type "if" instead of "of" and some other clunky typos.

NOTE: My porn, and porn related advice is coming from a man who visited this topic in IC sessions and have read books and done work books on it. I actively use a method that is assigned to SA, even though I am not one.

This could be a difference in your case. I would encourage mr. AML04 to read Every Mans Battle....it is a great starting point for the journey I am on.

If he is a full SA he will have to follow a similar path away from this learned behavior.

How prevailant was porn in your marriage? Did you know about him using it? Use it with him?

I bring it up because, although I am a former user of porn....I voluntarily started my own "intervention". It might be that your husband needs firmer motivation....and maybe that is where Sisoon's advice to lengthen your particular regs for R list comes from.

Just to share....I know this is not a christian web site. But my decision to stop porn use was not to protect or enhance my marriage. I wish it was, but it was not.

At the time I turned away from it I was 5-6 months out from my DD. My wife was lethargic to me and my M. Sex was mechanical and non-exciting at the time. Wife showed no opinion one way or the other towards porn use. I had just accepted the fact that my original M was dead...no longer able to be saved....realized it died with my wife fucking another man. I was as sad, depressed, lonely and isolated as I have ever been in my life....more than I thought humanly possible really.

What the true original motivation within me was came from what is preached to BS's in books about adultery and repeatedly preachd to BS's on SI....you must take care of yourself first....and your M later.

As I did this, really owned this for myself...I looked at what I wanted. I worked with my pastor and realized I wanted a solid relationship with God. Sin gets in the way of that relationship, like it does all relationships, so if I were serious about it I had to recognize my own sin, confess it, repent from it and vow never to return to it. I quit porn to improve my relationship with God.

Man, you don't know how much better I would feel if I did it to protect and nurture my relationship with my wife.....but that is not the truth. Truth is, my relationship with my wife was on its death bed....had all but given up hope to save it. Was simply....not a concern when I decided to stop using porn.

I felt like I had to share this with you because it ties into how a path away from sin can take many forms.

It was a very illogical time for me to stop this.....my wife not caring either way, she certainly in no position to support or help me break free from it, no other sexual outlet as to do so would keep the images in my mind influencing me--perpetuating the destructive chemical reactions that take place in my brain, RA up until that point was becoming a VERY real temptation and option for me....I got to a point where either I was going to stop or escalate my sin. I saw, in no uncertain terms, just how destructive I could be towards myself.

I made a choice that, while I cannot get rid of the pain my wife brought to me....I could at least take control of the pain I caused myself.

I stopped.

It has been sooooo worth it.

6 weeks.....that is when the "wow, so this is what living is supposed to feel like" returned to me. It was then that I could sit with my "urges", examine them, find out my own "whys" as to motivations behind this destructive activities....something I wasnt even aware WAS destructive to me for decades. That initial 6 weeks had me still believing the lies and justifications I used for decades with regards to porn use.

And this is why I used BOLD letters in my above post to you.

With regards to what you post your husband continues to do? He is no longer ignorant. The "wasnt thinking" defense is pure bull shit.

The "can I just read erotica?" question is pure bull shit. That is just him trying to find out how much of the old destructive mr AML04 he can bring with him into his new M to you.

The answer to that is simple......none!

I suspect this is what Sisoon means about expanding the regs for R list.....given the fact that your husband chooses to use bull shit excuses as to why he doesnt' want to change....it may be up to you to discipline him.

My question to you.....is this a temporary, get him to self-motivate himself or is it going to transfer into some unhealthy interaction from this point forward.

I don't want to have to ask my wife what her schedule is for the rest of our married life together. I want her to want to share this with me by her own free will. This is NOT how she has operated before. But I have faith she has the ability to do M differently.

I have that faith based on the change I have witnessed in my own self.....breaking patterns and habits that I thought simply were a part of me. End of story.

Turns out....M can be a never ending story if we stay honest and intentional about it.

Peace.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 3:35 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)]

I'm stuck in traffic so I thought I would at least respond to this part. We had never really had a discussion about porn. I assumed that he used it and I pretty sure he knew I did. My usage was occasional and get ready for TMI, only when I wanted to MB (which I now realize I mostly did to self soothe). To be honest I never thought of porn use outside of masturbation so him telling me he "just likes looking at it" caught me by surprise and is definitely not something I'm comfortable with. I don't think he's SA but the fact that he completely disregarded something that I asked him to not do just because he likes it worries me.

Hopefully will get a chance to discuss all the responses tonight and come up with a plan.

Thank you all again. You've given me a lot to think about.

The one thing here that concerns me is that requirements, no matter how few, have been set up. Now one of them is broken, and I do not see consequences. Consequences has to match too. Is the consequence bring it up in IC, can no longer use computer without so and so, etc. I can't tell you but I'm sure you have some.

My FWH had a porn issue too and part of that consequence was for him to move the computer near me where I can see him. Yea he can still hide it but it made itself known that there are consequences. Another consequence because of porn is that I told him I will do a search of all computer histories (I had a way of searching for it even if he cleared it). It's kind of like taking the alcohol out of the house for an alcoholic. I'm not trying to control him, or force him to stop porn but the various consequences made it real to him that I'm serious about this. He needs to be aware of himself as to why he needs it.

Hope that helps.

According to my therapist and some extensive reading.....the term SA is over-applied. I believe porn-addiction is more appropriate many times when SA is being used.

Really, at the end of the day....any activity that takes intimacy outside of the marriage is not healthy.

What my wife and I are discovering is that we had no idea what true mature intimacy was. We have never seen it modeled, never felt it.

Our current sex therapist assured me that this is VERY common in America today. Lots of reasons....most have to do with FOO coping skills that go unnoticed for decades. Unnoticed, but influencial in many people.

Growth is occurring in all of us on this site. We are "noticing" parts of ourselves and our marriages that were previously "hidden".

I pray your husband is finding the courage to drop his defenses and look inside himself to see what is hidden but influencial within himself.

Peace.

...and I forgot to mention that I agree wholeheartedly with atsenaotie:

He said he hates it and doesn't understand why he keeps doing it.

If I were doing things I hated doing without knowing why I did them I would want to address that. This should be a ripe area for him and some IC.

I don't see how your H can become a good partner without IC.

Actually, that post by Ats might need to go in the quote thread.

I agree wholeheartedly with ats. WH has been in IC but after one session with our new MC, he finally admitted his sucks. He's looking for a new one now.

I definitely have to put consequences in place other that "you hurt me and now you have to deal with my pain". I was sick to my stomach all day. He said he was too but he needs to do something about it.

Thank you all again. I can't tell you how much I appreciate your support. I was really expecting some 2x4s. You gave me a lot to think about!

Rebreather:

AML, is this somewhat related to what you said yesterday? Are you afraid if you DEMAND what you deserve that he will balk? Fail you again?

You can't control him and you can't control the future. No rugsweeping, young lady!!

Pussyfooting around in R just creates more problems. I swear it's true! You gotta go big and go strong.

Yes, I'm afraid if I push too hard he won't be able to do it. The funny thing is I don't like when he underestimates my ability to understand and doesn't come to me with issues so why am I doing it to him? I have to at least give him the chance to succeed or I will never know. I was wishing and hoping he would just do it on his own without me pushing. I told him what I needed and expected him to do it but there are no consequences if he doesn't.

Overcoming the fear will be my biggest hurdle I think.