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Newest Member: Cje33 (45758)

User Topic: interesting topic; forgiveness. Not what you'd expect.
Spelljean
♀ 35624
Member # 35624
Default  Posted: 4:20 PM, February 19th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Flip to any television station these days and chances are we'll be witness to some dramatic episode of forgiveness. We see a mother and daughter estranged for years kiss and make up, a long-feuding couple holding hands and renewing vows, scandal-plagued politicians asking for absolution and granting it to their accusers. Tears flow, hugs proliferate, and the inevitable psychological experts solemnly intone that traditional psychotherapy has neglected this essential element of cure and that studies show that forgiving alleviates depression and enhances self-esteem.
What's wrong with this picture? The capacity to forgive is an essential part of an examined life. However, enshrining universal forgiveness as a panacea, a requirement or the only moral choice, is rigid, simplistic and even pernicious. Yet that is exactly what we have done. Today we demonize not forgiving as much as we idealize forgiving. Failure to forgive, therapists caution, is to "doom yourself to be a victim for the rest of your life," while clergy warn that it inexorably leads to a "recycling of evil."
Yet some of the most admirable, sane and emotionally healthy people that I know have not forgiven on occasion. Not forgiving needs to be reconceived. It is not an avoidance of forgiveness or a retreat into paranoia, but a legitimate action in itself, with its own progression, motivation and justification. There are many circumstances in which it is the proper and most emotionally authentic course of action.

Q: How do real and false forgiveness differ?

A: Forgiving is hard work. It takes time, and involves pain. It's not just a simple declaration or automatic, reflexive action. False forgiveness is going through the motions without anything changing on the inside. It's lip service, and it actually interferes with authentic resolution and estranges people from their real feelings.
Forgiveness should be a capacity to be exercised when the situation warrants it, not a compulsion to be applied indiscriminantly. And no one--including a parent, a mental health professional or a member of the clergy--has the right to dictate how a betrayal should be resolved. Unfortunately, most therapists have been brainwashed to believe that forgiveness is the only correct solution, and naturally they encourage their patients to do it, out of genuine, if misplaced, concern for their mental health.
Q: What should therapists be doing?

A: They should help their patients come to terms with the past in whatever way is right for the individual. Often, people need permission not to forgive. Pushing an agenda of automatic absolution leads many to secret despair.
Therapy should teach people to think for themselves.


WH: 41
me: BS, 45
Together 18 1/2 years, married 17
DDAY 8/2/12
OW: EA- friend of 4 months
Status: separated

Posts: 903 | Registered: May 2012 | From: California
SisterMilkshake
♀ 30024
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 7:28 PM, February 19th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I agree with your post, Spelljean, 100%. Did you get the Q and A's from an article?

I do not waste time "trying" to forgive someone. In time, I have found that I eventually do forgive the person or, at the very least, have total indifference to them and what they did to harm me.

This has worked well for me. It is rather tiresome to have people constantly telling you "you must forgive". That it is somehow harming me to not forgive. Uuummm, no it isn't. I didn't notice any "harm" to myself. In fact, quite the opposite. It gave me time to get myself healthy. To process without having the burden of "having" to forgive someone.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9952 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
Dreamboat
♀ 10506
Member # 10506
Default  Posted: 8:27 PM, February 19th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I will never forgive my X. He did too much damage to DD for me to give him the gift of forgiveness.

Does that mean I am all bent out of shape and an forever broken because I will not forgive? Hell no! I ACCEPTED what happened and I have helped my DD heal and I have also healed myself. I really do not care what X does or does not do. He takes up no mind space just because I did not "forgive" him.

Sorry, I do not buy into that whole "You must forgive to begin to heal" crap. You do have to accept it and accept any role your played and accept that part that you had no control over.

But for me, forgiveness means absolution and only God can do that. I guess that is the latent Catholic in me, or at least what I gleaned from the religion before I rejected all religion.


And it's hard to dance with a devil on your back
So shake him off
-- Shake It Out, Florence And The Machine

Posts: 17695 | Registered: Apr 2006 | From: A better place :)
rachelc
♀ 30314
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 8:36 PM, February 19th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Good thoughts here! I'll let God worry about the forgiveness thing

The acceptance part- oh so much harder.

[This message edited by rachelc at 8:37 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)]


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5535 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
Lola7
♀ 41195
Member # 41195
Default  Posted: 9:06 PM, February 19th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I chose to forgive, and to divorce, but my forgiveness was a personal thing I did between me and God.

I began saying, "I forgive you, XXX and release you to the Holy Spirit." I'm not religious. I did it to free myself because I was just obsessing and couldn't get past it.

I've accepted that my marriage is not fixable. I've accepted that he is not someone I want to be with. I've accepted that I want to move forward with my life and I don't want to dwell on it anymore. I did it for me, not for him.

Part of the reason I was able to do this is I don't have to see him, I don't have children with him and he's not in my face every week. I think it's a lot harder when you have to interact with these idiots on a daily basis. I understand how difficult it is because I was right there a few weeks ago. But honestly, since I released it, I just don't give a fuck what happens to him. It's over, it's done.

It does me no good to spend the rest of my life saying "You fucked me over and I'll never forget it!" I say, "You fucked me over, and I don't even care enough about you to have it affect me or my life." If that makes any sense.

EDIT: I wanted to edit this to say, that my situation is final. I'm not in a situation where my marriage may be fixable or R is possible. So maybe my response isn't really applicable here. I just wanted to say that I did it, and it gave me peace. I doesn't condone what he did, but my life is too precious to waste another second on his betrayal. I've got a limited amount of sunrises on this rock, I want them to be happy. I hope I didn't come off too preachy. :)

[This message edited by Lola7 at 9:47 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)]


caelitus mihi vires
"My strength is from heaven"
DIVORCED!

Posts: 211 | Registered: Nov 2013
rachelc
♀ 30314
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 10:06 PM, February 19th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Lola- thanks for that! Your life is too precious for you to be effected the rest of your life by his betrayal- I love this!


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5535 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
Gotmegood
♀ 41407
Member # 41407
Default  Posted: 10:52 PM, February 19th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Spell- Enjoyed your post, never quite thought about it in those terms before, but liked tossing it around in my mind. I am not 'planning' to forgive. I am not 'trying' to forgive. I also do not plan to hold onto this, nor stay in this place for my lifetime either. I am struggling to process this painful mess, accept it as part of my life story, acknowledge my emotions as they present themselves. I want to live an emotionally honest life. If forgiveness comes in the future I will be happy. But I'm certainly not focusing on getting to that place. Not now anyway.


Me: faithful wife 62.
Him: WH 64 , prostitute 20 yr old
DDay: 8-13-2013
Status: boinging up and down like a yo-yo

Posts: 529 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Florida
Spelljean
♀ 35624
Member # 35624
Default  Posted: 11:03 PM, February 19th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Yes, it was from an online article. Found it helpful.

Definitely feels freeing to know you can stay indecisive on the issue even, and still move forward. For now I can choose to not forgive if it serves me. Maybe later I can forgive and release it. Maybe not.

I released all anger at my first husband. Never forgave but let it go.


WH: 41
me: BS, 45
Together 18 1/2 years, married 17
DDAY 8/2/12
OW: EA- friend of 4 months
Status: separated

Posts: 903 | Registered: May 2012 | From: California
mainlyinpain
♀ 39134
Member # 39134
Default  Posted: 11:15 PM, February 19th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

For me forgiveness is a gift and it comes, if at all, at the end of a long journey. I have never told WH I have forgiven him for anything and it is never on my mind to. I would want to feel like I would want to give forgiveness, if that is needed. But, I would never do it inauthentically. I value it like I would value my word. It is giving a piece of my heart, of me, and it has a price above rubies.


DD 1 - 7/7/2004
DD 2 - 10/31/2011
DD 3 - 4/30/2013(or continuation?)(Yes)
DD 4 - 9/25/2013
DD 5 - 2/15/2014 (found phone from 2009)

Posts: 507 | Registered: Apr 2013
purplejacket4
♀ 34262
Member # 34262
Default  Posted: 11:52 PM, February 19th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My fWS earned some level of forgiveness. The OW not so much. I have struggled far more with forgiving OW.


Me: BS 45
Her: fWS 48 (same sex partner)
Together: 18 years now (both MDs)
OW: meh so what 40s PhD
DD1: 10/30/11EA; DD2: 11/10/11 Had ONS; TT until 12/26/11; broke NC 6/12; NC again 7/12; R-ish

Posts: 2311 | Registered: Dec 2011 | From: Great Southwest
gypsybird87
♀ 39193
Member # 39193
Default  Posted: 12:13 AM, February 20th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This is a very interesting thread. Thanks for starting it.

I've always felt that forgiveness given too quickly minimizes the betrayal. Infidelity is so huge, so devastating... I feel like if I could just say "I forgive him" quickly and easily, then its almost like the marriage meant as little to me as it did to him. It would be like having a loved one die, and skipping the grieving, and going straight to yes, so-and-so passed away, but I'm over it.

I don't know it that makes any sense, but I'm not sure how else to explain it. I just felt that my marriage deserved to be mourned, it deserved to be honored even as it died, and part of doing that meant holding onto the anger I had for XWH/OW and definitely withholding anything that looked like forgiveness.

Now I'm in a different phase of the process. "Forgiveness" isn't quite the word for it, "acceptance" isn't really it either. It's a better place than where I was, but it's not the end of the journey either. I still have healing to do. In my situation, there is no R. He's off living his life with OW, and couldn't care less whether I've forgiven him or not. That's something to think about too. IMO, forgiveness that is sought and asked for is different than forgiveness that is done internally, just for and by the person who was betrayed.

I will never, ever condone, understand or even accept what XWH did to me. If that is what you (meaning anyone) define as forgiveness, then I'll never get there.

What I have done is reached a place where what he did no longer holds any power over me. I still have moments when I can't quite believe this is my life, but the A and the D do not define me, my life, or my worth as a person. They only define HIM. I couldn't care less what happens to him anymore. I don't wish him good or bad. I just feel sorry for him.

The forgiveness I'm struggling with now is for myself. For not seeing who he was and what he was sooner. For letting myself be so utterly used and financially ruined. For not seeing all the red flags that are now so clear in hindsight. Forgiveness for myself is what I need to find, and it's a lot harder than finding it for someone else.



Me: Enjoying life
Him: Someone else's problem

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage. ~ Anais Nin


Posts: 1011 | Registered: May 2013 | From: Oregon
RidingHealingRd
♀ 33867
Member # 33867
Default  Posted: 12:29 AM, February 20th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I too agree 100% and believe that too many people waste emotional energy struggling with forgiveness. Forgiveness should never be forced. If you are able to forgive, fine...if not that's fine too.

Fortunately, my IC understood that I would never forgive, I have no guilt about that, I do not stress over it. Period. Some things are just too huge to forgive and infidelity tops the list.
She suggested a book on forgiveness but that's it.

I have a very remorseful WH. There is nothing he can do to gain forgiveness. He gets it. However. This does not mean that we cannot move forward and rebuild a M destroyed by such horrendous behavior.


ME: 54 BS
HIM: 61 WH
Married: 28 years
D'Day: 10/29/10
in R 4 years and it's working but he is putting 200% into it (as he should) to make it right again.

The truth hurts, but I have never seen it cause the pain that lies do.


Posts: 2134 | Registered: Nov 2011
Ostrich80
34827
Member # 34827
Default  Posted: 1:01 AM, February 20th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks for sharing this..good stuff to think about.

In the beginning, on DD1. I was quick to say forgive. I think I didn't really grasp what it truly meant. I've never been a grudge holder so I kind of linked it together I guess. My IC is the one who said, has he earned forgiveness? I guess she thought I was handing it out pretty easily. I now know, it may take awhile to forgive. I wish no harm on him, I don't hate him but I don't think I'm ready to forgive him. I will one day. It's not eating me up inside and I'm not setting out for revenge but until he fully understands what he's done to me, I'll just wait for the F word.


BS..me
WS..him
Been with him over half my life
4kid
DD1 10-01-09 DD2 02-12-12 discovered it never ended
OW..nothing special. Just your average skank
Status..#$%@????

Posts: 5242 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: midwest
TheBestMe
♀ 39476
Member # 39476
Default  Posted: 6:18 AM, February 20th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Riding Healing Road.....You are me. I thought that there was something wrong with me because I will never ever forgive him. Yet, I do not see that forgiveness is necessary for beginning to heal my heart. Like you said "infidelity is just too big to forgive". And I have stated so often, forgiving means that I must be willing to act like it never happened. According to my Christian upbringing, I would have to extend that "loving" gesture to both parties. There aint a snowballs chance in Hell of that happening. I am fine with it


ME Doing Better
WH Trying As Best He Can
Married 23 years
Status: Working towards friendship
D Day #1 - 2007 My gut told me
D Day #2 - 2010 His D told me
D Day #3 - 1/11/2013 OW Confirmed
LTA 7 years

Both feet pointed forward; positive


Posts: 500 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: Inner Peace
Lola7
♀ 41195
Member # 41195
Default  Posted: 9:16 AM, February 20th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't think it's something you should do because everybody pushes it down your throat. You have to do what is right for you.

Forgiveness doesn't mean what he did is OK. It just means I'm done with it. He blew everything up with C4 and there's no pieces remaining to even attempt to fix it, even if I wanted to.

I just handed him and his shit decisions over to God and basically turned around and walked away. No waving, no good luck. I just handed it over and walked away. It just feels better to get rid of it. Everybody has to do what's right for them. :)


caelitus mihi vires
"My strength is from heaven"
DIVORCED!

Posts: 211 | Registered: Nov 2013
BAB61
♀ 41181
Member # 41181
Default  Posted: 10:32 AM, February 20th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This is an interesting topic. As a practicing Christian I am a believer in forgiveness. However, I don't think it's a simple thing. Saying "I forgive you" is not all that is involved. For me the true forgiveness is realizing the person who hurt you is broken in some way (many ways if you're a NPD, SA, POS unremorseful WS). The forgiveness I have used in the past is more a way to reach a place where that person's actions no longer have the ability to injure me. I probably am not doing it 'correctly' but for me it's a distancing, a way to heal me, more of a letting go. Not forgetting, not rugsweeping, just not letting their actions injure me further. My STBX cheated on me - that will NEVER go away. He destroyed our marriage - that will NEVER be forgotten. However, I forgive his hurting me because he is so broken and messed up that he was not rational. idk, it works for me ... jmho

Good topic btw, thanks Spelljean!


Boss A** B*tch
BS/52 Me, STBXpos/56, dd's 16&14
1st D-day 10/19/2013 EA/PA
2nd D-day 12/7/2013 LTA/Rendezvous
S 12/7/2013 No-fault state, 6 mo S, counting down the days.

Posts: 1271 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: DE
Topic Posts: 16

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