[This message edited by sparkle09 at 5:25 PM, February 25th (Tuesday)]
I had a lot of rage and anger in the early days, and I hated who I was when I was lashing out at H.
I found it best if I wrote about my feelings before bringing them up as a couple, after some time, I even found that sometimes all I needed was an audience - and it didn't always have to be my H. Sometimes I would just let myself pour pure poison onto the page, and read it out loud by myself, or to a dear friend who was 'in-the-know', or my therapist. Just voicing the pain and the wrong was most important for me in the slow work of working through my feelings. It also allowed me to calmly figure out what I needed to address with H, and what I could move through without involving him.
I know it may sound to compassionate to the WS at your point in time, and maybe it is for you, but eventually we BSs have to find compassion for the WS, or R will not be possible.
Be kind to yourself, you are talking about it here and working on yourself, so you're amazing!
he still will not discuss some details with me
When I first discovered my WH's affair, I was surprisingly calm. Then he started with the TT, lies of omission, and lying to my face....that's when the rage started, batshit crazy rage. I think what you are experiencing is very normal. The OW and your WH have all the pieces to the puzzle, and you are struggling to put just one piece in place...you, the wife, are in the dark. Unfortunately, most WSs don't understand that it is so much easier to move forward if they'd just answer our questions honestly. All questions.
Many times I would just get in the car and go for a drive and scream like a freaking lunatic! It helped to get some of that frustration out.
It is very difficult to control the rage. One thing I did was have my WH write the answers I needed and email them to me. It was easier for him since he didn't have to see my pain.
For me it was not a visual I wanted to live with for the rest of my married life and I am so glad I didn't....I do not want to let the women into OUR bedroom and I did NOT want him to 'relive" being with her either.
It is really hard not to ask, but in my opinion this is something you will be glad you did for YOU... not asking...some people are okay with it, I guess, but for me, I had enough visuals without having to cope with that....
[This message edited by morethantrying at 10:09 PM, February 26th (Wednesday)]
Yelling and screaming, and hurting him won't help. You want answers and he won't give them. How much do you want the answers? What are your boundaries? If they are total honesty, truth and transparency, well, he's failing. Take a stand, show him you aren't just angry but that you're taking back YOUR power over what YOU accept, and start the 180!!
I hope you find the strength for this. I know how infuriating this is. You're showing him right now that as long as he's willing to put up with screaming and yelling and name calling, he doesn't have to be honest.
What are your boundaries? What is unacceptable?
EDIT: Very, very respectfully, morethantrying, the fact that not knowing may be better isn't the issue here. OPs husband is hiding facts that have been asked for. Deciding that it's fine for him to keep hiding these things is telling him that keeping his affair to himself and rugsweeping is ok. He's been asked - if he decided to answer, OP can always pull back and say nevermind, but what he's doing now is holding out to get his way - which is hiding his embarrassing lalaland bullshit. Unacceptable, on every level.
[This message edited by painfulpast at 10:35 PM, February 26th (Wednesday)]
Ask yourself if you want to communicate or vent.
If you want to vent, then let him know you're venting.
If you want to communicate, it would help if the two of you learned some 'forced dialogue' where one person mirrors the other, sums up what's been said, validates and empathizes before answering.
When that person answers, it's your turn to mirror, sum up, validate and empathize.
It feel unnatural at first, but that feeling goes away after a while. It's incredibly useful.
There's no quick fix to your desire/need to punish your WS. Especially not that early.
If he's withholding information because he "is not ready", then you're probably going to be punishing him for some time to come.
The ideal reconciliation begins with a Wayward surrendering much control to their Betrayed spouse. The Betrayed has the right to full disclosure of Affair details, the right to oversight of the Wayward's communications and locations when separated, the right to demand No Further Contact with the Affair Partner, etc.
He is protecting himself, and the Affair, by husbanding secrets about it. Many have noted that you might not really want to know the dirty details-- yet, if you do, he has no right to keep them from you.
I do hope he'll see that, and sooner rather than later.
“No, Lord,” she said.
And Jesus said, “Neither do I. Go and sin no more.”
So I learnt to hold my tongue (mostly),it took willpower especially if he was telling me something that made me mad. Two tricks helped...
First, as he was talking and I could feel the rage coming on, I would repeat to myself 'listen,listen,listen' to stop myself interrupting him with a vent, as I knew as soon as I did he would clam up and I wouldn't get any more details.
Second , if it all got too much I would put on my walking boots and head out, even if it was 2 o'clock in the morning. I grew to dislike myself intensely for my verbal rantings.
Next day I would usually apologise for losing my temper and the language I had used, but not necessarily for the thoughts behind the rant which in most cases were justified. And H seemed to accept that.
I cant stop verbally abusing my WS. Once I get going I cant stop
I'm a year out from Dday, and I still do this constantly.... I don't know how to stop either... mainly bc I feel like he deserves everything I throw at him!!!!
maybe one day I'll be able to stop... hopefully you can stop one day as well..
He doesnt understand why i need to know sexual details that will only hurt me.
knowing the sexual details is like a double edged sword...
I don't make up stupid mind movies in my head about what I think they did together anymore... I know what they did...
But I still have the images in my mind about what they really did together.. I'm just not making them up anymore... and it helps (a little) if that makes any sense....
I hope this makes sense and that I didn't ramble.....
I feel very uncomfortable doing anything different that I know they did together, and as I'm the one now who likes trying out new stuff, I don't want to know if they did it as it'll put a damper on my enjoyment. I did ask H about a couple of things we did together and whether he'd done it with her, his response was 'she wouldn't have had the imagination to do it'. To a certain extent,as far as the exact sexual acts they indulged in, ignorance is bliss.
I hope you are able to work through this issue and most importantly have realistic expectations for being able to or unable to control your anger. Ideally it would be great if you could control it, but do not be upset with yourself if you act human. We have all done - I still do it.
You just had another dday on 2/13. Did his affair just end? Was it cut off because they were caught?
I am going against what many others here are saying. What you are doing is not ok. The feelings you have are completely normal but abusing someone to get your point across and release pain is never ok.
R needs to be put on hold. Not because of your anger, but because you are so fresh into this. Your WS isn’t ready, and I hear many people saying tough luck he has to be willing to x,y,z to R. That’s true, he does have to be willing to do a lot of work to R with you.
But it is too early for you to offer R and much too early for him to accept it.
You may know in your gut you want to save your marriage, I get it. I wanted that too.
There is a process, he has just come out of his A ( I think) he is still foggy and hasn’t done any healing yet. He needs to remove the AP from his mind and get to a point where the A was a bad thing. If he is still foggy the A wasn’t bad, it was a fantasy he enjoyed. Probably associates a lot of good with it.
Until he recognizes the damage, the horrible choice, finds disgust with his actions he isn’t a partner you can R with.
While he starts to heal you need to do the same, continue with your IC, I would hold off on MC and get some time in for you both with individual therapists.
Your anger is valid, you have the right to discuss it, let him know your pain and try to work through it with him. Until he gets to a clear place he won’t be able to truly recognize your need for info, your triggers, fears ….so doing that now will end up hurting you more.
I am not saying he is deserving of not answering your questions, you deserve whatever you need in order to heal the marriage. He isn’t capable of that right yet.
I suggest you put R away for right now and live today. Get stronger emotionally, detach from him (I don’t think the 180 would hurt you) and put changes in place so that down the road no matter what happens with your life you will be ok.
There is no telling if his fog will lift, if he will truly be remorseful when/if it does.
So rather than wait on him to decide the direction of your life start healing you. You will get to a point in this journey when you will come to a crossroad. Depending on your WS’s actions and state of mind and your healthier place the decision to R or S/D won’t be a decision it will be a given. A direction taken without the fear and desperation we all feel so soon after dday.
Be good to you.
ETA: Of course, this is my opinion...take what works and toss the rest
[This message edited by karmahappens at 8:33 AM, February 27th (Thursday)]
We have talked ab me writing down questions and him emailing them to me. He expresses himself better in writing anyway. We are going to try it. Thanks everyone for your input.
[This message edited by sparkle09 at 8:41 AM, February 27th (Thursday)]
If you feel he is genuinely remorseful then skip my long winded response lol I thought he was coming from a different place
I found it best if I wrote about my feelings
Many times I would just get in the car and go for a drive and scream like a freaking lunatic!
These work, but the TT and not talking about details is BS! This will continue to make you frustrated and you WILL lash out.
I know it just makes the entire situation worse.
Your H isn't remorseful. Stop arguing and begging him to open up, and instead I'd go 180 and shut him out. He's protecting himself. He's not ready? Tough shit - you are. You asked a question. He has 2 choices - answer, or start looking for an apartment.
Be gentle on yourself. Demand answers, if you need them. This is about you and your healing. Your counselor is not necessarily helping here. demand what you need if they tell you otherwise find anew counselor.
[This message edited by lordhasaplan? at 8:51 AM, February 27th (Thursday)]
Yes, Time Out can work if BOTH people agree to use it as it is intended vs. using it as a way of avoiding. You have to be able to circle back at a mutually agreed upon time when tempers have cooled and talk about the issue vs. just not dealing with it at all.
The thing I never understood about my situation is that I was the target for so many years of my husband's outbursts and all of those escalated during the time of the A and I did not hold that stuff against him. But me getting "crazy" a few times about his betrayal is something he is holding against me. I guess it's just normal for WS to have this train of thought - they are the victim, they did whatever wrong because they were an injured party somehow.
Finally, yoga has really helped me manage my anger and stress. It helps you learn to focus on yourself and how your body feels in the moment you feel anger vs. just reacting to it verbally with lashing out. PM me if you want a link about neuroplasticity and how meditation and yoga breathing can help.
[This message edited by womaninflux at 9:03 AM, February 27th (Thursday)]
He does discuss some things just not explicit things and I know it's bc our therapist told him not to.
Earlier you said he's not ready. If the therapist is saying this, then perhaps ask for a meeting with both of you? It seems hard to accept that a therapist that is only dealing with him should give such advice. She has no idea how much pain you're in, and how not knowing is hurting you.
I do feel he is remorseful
You would know this certainly more than any of us. He doesn't sound it, however. If he sees the pain you're in, and still chooses not to tell you, then he's still protecting himself and not you. That's regret, but not remorse. There's a difference between the two. Remorse is when the WS really starts to grasp the depth of the pain they've caused and will take virtually any steps necessary to help you heal. He's not doing this. He's getting yelled at, waiting for you to cool down, and still not telling you. To me, that's not remorse. I'm sure he's very sorry he's hurt you, but he doesn't sound remorseful.
his affair was a booty call nothing more so he didn't love her or think it was this romanticized relationship
Even so, it was half of your marriage. For over 2 years, he lied, cheated, deceived, etc. That is not a 'booty call'. That is tremendous pain, and selfishness on his part. For him to be still protecting himself by not telling, whether it's to avoid embarrassment, anger, you leaving after you hear the details, etc, is wrong. He should be more concerned for your healing than his own protection. He's not doing you a favor by not telling. This is causing tremendous pain for you, and it's coming out in extremely hostile behavior. It's upsetting you, him, and hurting R.
I'm going to once again recommend the 180. I don't believe accepting that he's just 'not going to answer' after the several outbursts and him witnessing your frustration, pain, etc is healthy. It's teaching him that in this mess, if he can just wear you down, he wins. Well, this isn't a game. There are no winners. You need to understand what you need to understand, and he needs to be wiling to help you with that.
Also, as mentioned, perhaps meet with his therapist to discuss her viewpoint. Perhaps she will change her stance, or perhaps she'll change your stance. Who knows, but it's certainly worth a shot.
You asked a question. He has 2 choices - answer, or start looking for an apartment.
I was never one to calm myself with a time out. I just raged until I raged no more. Sometimes I think my Rage was a "test" to see if my WH really did want to remain in the M.
My IC told me that for me it was much easier to rage than to feel/experience the deep sadness. Anger was easier.
I also know that my anger would also stem from frustration of not knowing, or believing that I knew, the truth...all of it. Your WS needs to answer truthfully ALL of your questions. It is not his place to determine what you are/are not able to handle.
If it gives you any hope ~ I was the queen of rage. I never had any brain to mouth editing. If I thought it, I said (screamed) it and did so with no guilt. We are 3+ years out in successful R. Our M is stronger, we communicate far more than pre-Dday, we are in a much better place.
Wishing you strength
The truth hurts, but I have never seen it cause the pain that lies do.