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User Topic: consequences and punishment
TOMTEFAR
♂ 39257
Member # 39257
Default  Posted: 6:33 AM, February 27th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

jb3199 wrote in Another thread:

Always keep in your mind as to what you believe to be consequences or punishments. While a certain action may look like either one, it is important to recognize the difference. Consequences, in my opinion, are great. Punishment....well, save that for the OM

I have read quite a bit and I'm a bit divided in this regard. We do punish everybody we can that breaks our rules (criminals). They also have to face the consequences (partly at least) of their crimes. This is an ingrained thing with most humans that some punishment is needed for an offence.

Why would it be different with a WS?

What is a justifiable punisment if ther is such a thing?

You could argue that you are trying to rebuild a M from an A but then again you could argue similar on Another offence.

What is bad with punisment if it is kept inline?

Obviously, if it goes to far it is not good but what is to far? Any punisment at all?

[This message edited by TOMTEFAR at 6:34 AM, February 27th (Thursday)]


Posts: 107 | Registered: May 2013
JustWow
♀ 19636
Member # 19636
Default  Posted: 6:55 AM, February 27th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm not my H's parent, I'm not his creator,I am not the sheriff in our house, I do not believe it is my place to punish him.

If he does something that causes a consequence - one formulated to protect me, then how he views that is on him. But the intent is to enforce a boundary to protect me.


BW - Reconciling

edited for typos (I always have to!)


Posts: 3646 | Registered: May 2008 | From: Midwest
BtraydWife
♀ 42581
Member # 42581
Default  Posted: 6:59 AM, February 27th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I wonder if what you think would be appropriate punishments would be considered consequences by others?

When a spouse is punished it puts you in the parent/child role when what you need to be in is a team role.

So what would you consider an appropriate punishment, just for example?


Me-BW
Him-WH
DD-March 2010
TT for 6 months
Unremorseful for 3.5 years

Delay is the deadliest form of denial. - C. Northcote Parkinson

Your standards aren't up for negotiation just because he/she can't meet them.


Posts: 2605 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: United States
annb
♀ 22386
Member # 22386
Default  Posted: 8:39 AM, February 27th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My husband faced consequences for his actions. They were not punishments, they were my requirements for R.

1. Find another job.
2. No socializing on the job where women are involved.
3. No personal conversations with female co-workers.
4. Complete transparency.
5. His #1 priority had to shift to the marriage and his children. As a result, he also gave up his passion (a sport he had been involved in for 37 years).


Other minor things, but these were my conditions. My way or the highway.

Non-negotiable. I did not view them as punishment, and neither did he. After D-day, he realized the focus in his life had been in all the wrong, selfish places, and he willingly gave that all up.


Posts: 7665 | Registered: Jan 2009 | From: Northeast
jb3199
♂ 27673
Member # 27673
Default  Posted: 9:03 AM, February 27th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What would you consider a "plausible" punishment?


BH-47
WW-44
2 boys-17 & 20(special needs)
Married 22yrs.(together 27yrs.)

All work and no play has just cost me my wife--Gary Puckett
D-Day: 9/18/09 D-Day#2: 2/19/10 The Marriage Killer: 6/6/11
Heading for D


Posts: 2143 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: northeast
TOMTEFAR
♂ 39257
Member # 39257
Default  Posted: 9:09 AM, February 27th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I wonder if what you think would be appropriate punishments would be considered consequences by others?

This could be the case but then again I seem to be a bit tougher around here than others so I don't know.

So what would you consider an appropriate punishment, just for example?

I don't know what is appropriate. I'm conflicted here. I like the term Just compensation but I have problems figuring out what is "Just compensation".

Some things I Think are consequences. Things like:

* Change job if the AP works at the same Place.
* Complete transparency.
* Dropping of toxic friends.
* Exposiur to those the BS wants.
* Letting kids know that there is problems in the M and that it is the WS fault. (This to not have the kids start thinking bad things about the BS because the BS is acting up /angry/sad at home)

These things doesn't seem like punishment though to me. So I on one had feel that punishment is needed or the offence have no consequences but I don't know what would be acceptabel, if any.

Maby atonement for the offence would work as well? But then again what would the atonment be? Again it's very easy to bring that to far...



Posts: 107 | Registered: May 2013
TOMTEFAR
♂ 39257
Member # 39257
Default  Posted: 9:12 AM, February 27th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

annb:

1-4 I Count as consequences.
5 is also a consequence if not done as a punishment. This depends on the "real" reason for you demanding this. If what you type is true then it is a consequence (and I do beleive you). It could easily be a veiled punishment if your reason is not the truth though.


Posts: 107 | Registered: May 2013
TOMTEFAR
♂ 39257
Member # 39257
Default  Posted: 9:18 AM, February 27th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

jb3199:

There is a lot of things that could be classed as punishment. Most I don't agree with though but here are some things:

1 A RA
2 Controlling behaviour
3 Verbal "abuse" (I do Think this should be accepted as a release valve early on though.)
4 Restrictions in what the WS is allowed to do.

Anyways I'm struggeling a lot with this. One one hand I am for punishment but don't know what would be apropriate or helpfull.


Posts: 107 | Registered: May 2013
RippedSoul
♀ 40055
Member # 40055
Default  Posted: 9:26 AM, February 27th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I read on some thread here that the BS makes the down payment (the bulk of the sorrow) if reconciling, but the WS makes the monthly payments after that--for the rest of his/her life. Always, we will both know that HE made the decision to cheat. That's a natural and painful consequence for any remorseful person. And if the WS isn't remorseful, then the discussion is moot.


BW: 49; SLAWH: 46; M: 23 yrs
DD#1--11/30/12 (prostitute #1)
DD#2--1/29/13 (AP, escorts #1 & #2)
DD#3--9/13 (trolling MILF site)
DD#4--10/8/13 (EA with AP cont'd)
DD: 20; DD: 18; DS: 16; DS: 14
PS: I've NEVER NOT edited my posts

Posts: 481 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: California
SisterMilkshake
♀ 30024
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 9:28 AM, February 27th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What I believe you are actually struggling with is justice, TOMTEFAR. It was a big struggle of mine, too, as I am very justice oriented.

This is the big shit sandwich we, as BS's, have to accept and eat, especially if we are reconciling. There is no justice. Nothing, absolutely, nothing can compensate for what we have endured or lost. There is no punishment or consequence that would equate to what any BS would say was justice.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 10085 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
norabird
♀ 42092
Member # 42092
Default  Posted: 9:42 AM, February 27th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I guess for me the problem with punishment would be that it doesn't rebuild as healthy relationship, but one where all the power is with the BS.

I get why that is appealing but it's not going to be a very good M.

When I really wanted punishment was after everything ended. I've just had to accept that I can't get it unless it's through fallout from his won actions down the line.


Sit. Feast on your life.

Posts: 4235 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: NYC
craig2001
♂ 55
Member # 55
Default  Posted: 9:59 AM, February 27th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think once a WS comes out of the fog and realizes just what in the hell they did do and with who is punishment enough. The embarrassment, the realization, etc is bad enough. The consequences are bad enough.

I donít think I even considered any type of punishment. But there had to be consequences to the affair, otherwise it would be like saying, oh, thatís fine, let's move on.

I worked at home and my WW worked at a job. Since I was home, I used to do the dishes and sometimes start dinner. After DD, I just started saying the hell with being nice. If she wants the dishes done, she can do them or have the OM come over and clean up. Though I donít consider that any type of punishment, and if it is, I didnít look at it that way.

I do believe that many WS's think it is nothing but punishment when the BS needs to know the entire truth to every one of their questions. And that is not punishment, that is just another consequence of the WS's actions and lies.

I have read that some WS's believe it is nothing but punishment when their BS asks them questions over and over. Again, that is not punishment, it is a consequence.


Posts: 4436 | Registered: Jun 2002
RealityStinks
♂ 41457
Member # 41457
Default  Posted: 9:59 AM, February 27th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Punishing my STBX would be restricting her from doing things, removing privileges, etc.

Consequences are me D her and her one day realizing that she royally screwed up (well down IMO). For example, we went to a "baby reveal party" last August. Our friends were telling everyone about the baby and that "it" was a boy. Everyone there, except for the future grandparents, were my age +/- 2 years. So, if STBX ever takes her new boy toy to a party like that, he'll have more in common with the grandparents than anyone else there! Can you say "awkward"!

Whatever, I don't care what/who she does anymore. I just hope she doesn't screw up before we're D.

Oh, another consequence might just be me telling a few people that I know a little a story about STBX, her new boy toy, and their "friendship".

She did it, and by golly, she's going to own it.

[This message edited by RealityStinks at 10:00 AM, February 27th (Thursday)]


Posts: 414 | Registered: Nov 2013
jb3199
♂ 27673
Member # 27673
Default  Posted: 11:16 AM, February 27th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think that SisterMilkshake stated it perfectly--you are struggling with justice...or the lack thereof...and will never get to level the playing field again.

That is something that you will eventually have to come to grips with, or it will eat you up inside. There is never real justice.

But, if a wayward is truly remorseful, then they will punish themselves far worse than you or I could ever do. Think about it---they betrayed themselves--how do you come to accept that? I know some members in the Wayward Forum could answer that question.

As to your previous statement:

There is a lot of things that could be classed as punishment. Most I don't agree with though but here are some things:

1 A RA

Bad choice. You just crossed the line that made you a betrayed spouse.

2 Controlling behaviour

Could be either a consequence or punishment. It depends on the type of control.

3 Verbal "abuse" (I do Think this should be accepted as a release valve early on though.)

I'm good with that. Although in my mind, it is kind of a consequence...because initially, we are barely able to contain ourselves. Opinions may vary on this.

4 Restrictions in what the WS is allowed to do.

As it relates to gaining your trust back, that is absolutely a consequence.


BH-47
WW-44
2 boys-17 & 20(special needs)
Married 22yrs.(together 27yrs.)

All work and no play has just cost me my wife--Gary Puckett
D-Day: 9/18/09 D-Day#2: 2/19/10 The Marriage Killer: 6/6/11
Heading for D


Posts: 2143 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: northeast
TOMTEFAR
♂ 39257
Member # 39257
Default  Posted: 1:45 AM, February 28th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

SisterMilkshake:

Yes, justice is what I'm after. We do it by punishing wrongdoers. So how do you do that with a WS?


Posts: 107 | Registered: May 2013
TOMTEFAR
♂ 39257
Member # 39257
Default  Posted: 1:48 AM, February 28th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I guess for me the problem with punishment would be that it doesn't rebuild as healthy relationship, but one where all the power is with the BS.

Yes this actualy the core of the problem. How can you punish without razing the M?

My problem is that if you don't punish (get justice) you are also breaking the M, but from the other side.


Posts: 107 | Registered: May 2013
TOMTEFAR
♂ 39257
Member # 39257
Default  Posted: 1:50 AM, February 28th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think once a WS comes out of the fog and realizes just what in the hell they did do and with who is punishment enough. The embarrassment, the realization, etc is bad enough. The consequences are bad enough.

I don't see this as punishment. I see this as a consequence of the A. So for me that is not justice.

craig2001:
The dishes I would consider a punishment but I agree with you on knowing all the details and questioning are consequences.

[This message edited by TOMTEFAR at 1:51 AM, February 28th (Friday)]


Posts: 107 | Registered: May 2013
TOMTEFAR
♂ 39257
Member # 39257
Default  Posted: 1:59 AM, February 28th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

jb3199:

Yes I'm all with you. But then againto take Another example.

Say I murdered somebody. Would their relatives be OK with me, if I realy was remorsefull and punished myself, with me not getting any jail time?

I know it is an extreme example but it kind of illustrates the struggle I have.

I mean I Think it is just consequences that the WS is remorsefull. It doesn't realy do much for me in the justice department. It still feels like the WS got to do their thing and have no punishment for it and that is a realy hard pill to swallow.

I also Think about the following:

If there is no punishment what is to stop the WS from doing it again? We do have a justice system that, at least in therory, is there to stop people from doing bad stuff because they know that the punishment you might get is not Worth the benefits. It's a deterent.


Posts: 107 | Registered: May 2013
stronger08
♂ 16953
Member # 16953
Default  Posted: 2:07 AM, February 28th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

IMHO consequence is a direct affect of peoples choices. If you cheat on your spouse, one consequence could be having to face a D.

Punishment on the other hand is a direct affect of another persons choice to inflict whatever harm they deem fit to ones action. If you kill someone, you run the chance of society executing you.

Now you may claim this to be simply word semantics. But I feel they are different. That's not to say that you cant insist on certain criteria that could lead to consequence in your list of R demands. A no brainer is that the WS loses their right to privacy after they cheat. When considering R the BS needs to think long and hard about what exactly it is they need to R. Then that package is offered to the WS and its up to the WS to accept those terms or not. If R is what you desire, I feel you need to back off the whole "punishment" idea. Punishment to me is nothing but a nice word for revenge. Its takes the anger off the inflictor and inserts it on the receiver. Perhaps another way to think of it is this. Consequences are reactions to people doing the wrong thing. Punishment are actions from the offended to inflict suffering. Two total and different mindsets. If your going into R to simply punish your WS then your intentionally inflicting pain on her just to get your pound of flesh. Just as her intentionally cheating on you caused you pain, your doing something just as bad to cause her pain. Very hypocritical thinking in that context. And if that's your intent your better off filing for a D. Just my .02 cents here.


You cant eat soup with chopsticks.

Posts: 5905 | Registered: Nov 2007
hurtingfool
♂ 42196
Member # 42196
Default  Posted: 2:41 AM, February 28th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ah, mine will sound weird.

To start, we are working on boundaries and appropriate consequences for breaking those boundaries. Earlier tonight, though it wasn't one we had gone over, she faced a consequence. She asked if she could fall asleep next to me, and, aside from dealing with everything, one of the hardest things I've had to do so far is to tell her no. She's put me in this place, I feel like shit, I'm not sleeping in the same room until I feel comfortable (or drunk enough) to. It's a consequence of her actions, even if we did have a really good talk prior to her asking.

As far as punishment, the first week she was back (this may be the weird part), I spanked her for lying to me. I didn't wail on her. I didn't break the skin. I let her feel my disappointment in her lying to me. Let her know what I was disappointed in while I was doing it. You'd have to know us to get why I somehow thought this was a good idea at the time. Though I will admit, I did feel a bit better at the time.

It wasn't until I really started looking at boundaries and consequences that I realized I was taking a parental role with my wife. I already have three kids, I don't need/want a fourth. Side note, I haven't actually spanked my actual kids in a long time, but they do know it is a possibility.

Now I am looking at what I can do as a consequence that doesn't seem like I'm a parent. Yeah, I can reevaluate the marriage, set up counseling, etc. but, not talking to them for a set amount of time, having them do extra stuff around the house, setting up date nights, seem, I don't know, parentalish.

I agree though, finding an appropriate punishment is hard. Really, the best I have come up with is her outing herself to her family, and that still seems like just a consequence.

Edit as this came in while typing:

If your going into R to simply punish your WS then your intentionally inflicting pain on her just to get your pound of flesh. Just as her intentionally cheating on you caused you pain, your doing something just as bad to cause her pain.

I, for one, am not going into R just to punish her. I'm not even considering myself to be able to be in R yet. It is something I am working towards. I also know I can not inflict as much pain to her as this A has caused me. Would I like my pound? Yeah. Not gonna get it. Still, I would like for her to be in some pain for the damage she has caused. Which I am seeing a bit through what I see as remorse.

I am not advocating extreme punishment. I still feel as something should be done though prior to R. I do not see how that can be just as bad as what the WS did. But, that could be the pissed side of me blocking the view too.

[This message edited by hurtingfool at 2:53 AM, February 28th (Friday)]


Me: BS 31
Her: WS 29
10 years of marriage
12 years together
3 kids
DDay:January 16, 2014

Posts: 136 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: NW US
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