Issue 1: I was originally told not to tell WS about this site until I was absolutely sure we were in reconciliation. I worry that they would see ideas for questions, etc on here. I hold back certain posts because I don't want other WS to read and think, "I should protect that or make sure my H/W doesn't see that." Thoughts?
Issue 2: I have recently shared the site with my WH because he was trying to find ways to help me heal. He also deals with depression and a lot of shame about his A, which he should! Nonetheless, I thought the WS forum would help, as there seem to be some people really working on changing on there. He did come on here and read the WS forum but said he doesn't like it. He doesn't want to feel better. He wants to forever remember the pain of doing what he did and make sure he never hurts me in that way again. I wasn't sure how to respond to that. I would think the WS forum was full of people talking about the awful thing they did and how to make their spouse heal and changing themselves for the better. Anyone else have the same response? Thoughts?
I didn't share the site with him but I printed stuff for us to read. He did use it to hurt me further.
He doesn't want to feel better. He wants to forever remember the pain of doing what he did and make sure he never hurts me in that way again
Hating himself is not what will keep him from doing it again. In fact those feelings will make it more likely to happen again. He needs help in wading through his mix of feelings. I think it will be a big problem in the future if he doesn't start IC. He should be going weekly for the first several months.
Make it non negotiable.
I read your post last night before heading to bed and while my first thought was to write a rebuttal right there and then, I ultimately decided that it would be unwise to do so without a period of calming between my initial reaction and my written reply. In truth, Iím still not calm. Iím seething inside, just totally shocked, dismayed and angry that I could be reading such a message in the R forum. It flabbergasts me.
LivingLearning - I was originally told not to tell WS about this site until I was absolutely sure we were in reconciliation. I worry that they would see ideas for questions, etc on here. I hold back certain posts because I don't want other WS to read and think, "I should protect that or make sure my H/W doesn't see that." Thoughts?
I can only pray that it was not a current or past member of SI that gave you that shitty advice! I donít often read JFO/General as they are very disturbing for a FWS to read but if I was aware that this advice was being offered, I would be furious. I think you need to go to the Welcome page and read the message once more.
SurvivingInfidelity is your safe place to come and share your pain and feeling of isolation upon discovery of betrayal. All are welcome here, even the betraying partner (WS), provided they are remorseful and committed to healing. - Quoted from the Hello to SI message.
In part, SI was created to give the WS a safe place to post. Hell, half of our administrators, moderators and guides are Waywards. I had checked out a few other sites that deal with infidelity but this was the only one where I felt I had a safe and supportive environment, where I could be open and honest with my thoughts, fears and needs. The WS bashing on other sites is unreal and I can say from my own experience that when you get yourself ripped apart by a gaggle of angry, bitter and hateful BSís, there is no healing happening. SI and its WS forum is the single best site that provides support in healing for the WS.
If you simply waited until you were absolutely sure you were in reconciliation, then your WS may have been denied the very support and advice and help that would get him to embrace R in the proper manner. SI has a proven track record in helping the foggy and un-remorseful WS find themselves. And when and how do you decide that your absolutely sure that R is working? How is your WS going to develop the skills and abilities to heal themselves or you if your fears have prevented him from finding the best online forum there is for the WS? If youíre here finding support and healing, then your WS can find it here too.
If your H reads this post, how can it be anything but helpful? http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=324250
bigdog - WS here, best damn post I have ever read. My BS emailed me and told me about it, I printed it off yesterday and took it home last night. I have read it 3 or 4 times now, we both found there are things in the post that we have already been doing but there is more there for me. This is great, I hope every WS opens their eyes and reads this, it will help.
Yes, no one denies that sharing SI poses some challenges but they can be dealt with by establish rules and guidelines about cross-posting. Lots of couples here share SI. My wife and I do, BaxtersBFF and his wife do and the list goes on. I can not emphasis strongly enough that not letting your WS share this site because of your ďwhat ifĒ worries and fears is creating far more damage to your marriage than coming on here would.
If your husband isnít committed to R, if he wants to gaslight you, if he has taken the A undercover, well all of those things will happen regardless of him being a member here or not. In actual fact, if you read the WS forum, which I encourage you to, then you will see the WS community is harsh and remorseless in how it deals with the WS who is not committed to R or who is not taking responsibility for the affair.
LivingLearning - He also deals with depression and a lot of shame about his A, which he should! Nonetheless, I thought the WS forum would help, as there seem to be some people really working on changing on there. He did come on here and read the WS forum but said he doesn't like it. He doesn't want to feel better. He wants to forever remember the pain of doing what he did and make sure he never hurts me in that way again. I wasn't sure how to respond to that.
If this is truly the case, then as BtraydWife said, he is likely trapped in the shame spiral. You should get him to buy and read the book, Healing the Shame that Binds You by John Bradshaw. An excerpt of his e-book can be found at http://www.creativegrowth.com/bradshaw_shame%201.pdf
I know the shame spiral well, I was trapped in it myself for quite the while and in fact, still find myself staring it in the face even now, but ongoing shame and guilt is not healthy. Not in the least. Seeking professional help to get beyond this would be one of the greatest gifts he could give himself.
Being stuck in shame and regret is not the best path to follow if he really wants to never hurt you again. Learning acceptance, finding remorse and self-forgiveness is the only sure fired way to accomplish that. As long as he holds onto the broken WS image, then he will not be able to find the goodness inside of him. He has to learn that if forgetfulness does not imply forgiveness, then guilt and shame does not imply healing.
Let him join up. Encourage him to join. And then let him post his thoughts on this matter and I think that both you and him would be surprised and shocked at the support and help that the WS community would offer him. I would encourage you to try this.
BtraydWife - I agree with not sharing SI with a WS unless you are sure you are both committed to R. I didn't share the site with him but I printed stuff for us to read. He did use it to hurt me further.
(((BtraydWife))) I hope you come back to this thread and find this reply. I hope you would reconsider withholding SI from a foggy and un-remorseful WS. Yes, for everyone that may have been in the shoes of your un-remorseful H, I think that you will find the overwhelming majority of the WS forum have come to find support, advice and assistance in self-healing for themselves and their spouses.
For those very lucky few who find remorse on day one, SI is helpful but for those foggy and un-remorseful WSís, SI can be the critical pivot point in finding themselves. I think if you read this post, you will really see the true spirit of the WS forum. http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=525084
Getting your spouse here isn't a magic bullet. Sometimes, no matter how helpful the advice, no one wants to listen to it and if that is the case, SI wonít help, IC wonít help and MC wonít help. But for the WS who finds within themselves even a shred of remorse, guilt and shame, then SI is, in my opinion, the best place in the whole damn universe for them to come to.
Just as a BS can wrap themselves in anger and bitterness, a WS can wrap themselves in guilt and shame. None of this is healthy Ė Unknown Poster
[This message edited by HUFI-PUFI at 10:03 AM, March 9th (Sunday)]
For a variety of EXCELLENT reasons:
First, if they are a new BS, then dday just happened..why should they trust their WS with SI..their safe place? Their WS has just proven they are not to be trusted. They have shown their BS that their(BS) well being is NOT a priority to them. Not right after dday.
Second, do you have any idea how many WS's use SI against their BS? Many have used it to gather info on how to take their A underground..or have used it to stay one step ahead of their BS when the BS is still investigating. Many have shared their BS's posts with their AP. YES! How despicable is that?
Third, we tell them to wait because many of us who have been here on SI for awhile have seen a "remorseful" WS actually turn out to be unremorseful, but sorry they were caught. While SI has helped many foggy WS's find remorse, it is still at risk to their BS.
A BS is in need of a safe place to talk...get advice..support..and usually a new BS has some investigating to do. We always hear "I know everything, he told me everything"...but we all know how unlikely that is. MOST, not all, but most WS's TT. Introducing a new WS to SI would hinder that investigation. IF the WS is not remorseful, and still in the A, what better way for them to find out how they were caught and what methods their BS is using to dig into what they've done...sure would make covering their tracks easy, huh?
Im not saying to never tell their WS about SI. It can be a huge help in trying to R and help them look at their issues....but right after dday? No. Sorry if that makes you mad. While I see the benefits, I feel the risk is too great. A new BS is traumatized. They need to feel safe. Sharing their safe place with a foggy, unremorseful WS can, and has, caused further harm to the BS.
You, Hufi, are looking at this from a wayward's POV. Im looking at this as protecting the BS from further harm.
It is more than "simply waiting until youb are sure you are in R." It is about keeping the BS safe from the person who caused them great harm...until..and if..the WS has shown they are NC, are answering questions and being honest..if they basically are showing consistent signs that they are truly wanting to heal themselves and the marriage.
I do understand what you are saying. I get it. You want to help the WS's. (And you do!) But the BS's who advise they wait to share SI with the WS are doing so because we are trying to protect the BS from further harm.
..that feeling you get in your stomach, when you heart's broken. It's like all the butterflies just died.
confused615 - Actually, Hufi, it is very common for us to tell a newly betrayed spouse to NOT tell their WS about SI ... yet.
As I read those words, I shook. I guess that I really am blind in one eye and unable to see out the other like LF says. I just am shocked to think that the veteran BS community would give that advice to the newbies.
Don't get me wrong, I can understand why you feel you need a safe place however, I can't help but feel that the basis behind those thoughts are negative emotions such as fear and worry. And at a certain level, negative emotions are not always the most helpful.
Not only fear but most other emotions are mind killers. We do stupid things when we let emotions take over. Then we are forced to endure the consequences for the rest of our days - Glen Cook
I totally understand the visceral need for the BS to find a safe and supportive place because its the same need that I have. And because our needs are the same, I would argue that the need of the BS does not, should not and I would argue, must not take away from the very real need for a WS to have their own safe and supportive place.
If you look at the web, there are at least a dozen sites that offer support and assistance to the BS, each of them being reputable and good sites in their own respects. On the other hand, there are no other sites that offer the WS a protected forum, free of bashing, that offers peer reviwed support and advice to the WS other than SI.
You ask, why should they trust their WS with SI .. their safe place?
I have two quick reasons.
First of all, SI is not just a safe place for the BS. By its very design, it was also meant to be provide a safe place for the remorseful WS. Hell, its one of the only sites that I found that feels safe at all. SI is supposed to be a safe site for everyone, including the WS. I know you want a safe place but the truth is, I need a safe place. My needs are not less than yours in that respect.
Not unlike SI, the majority of the members on infidelity sites are BS's and the number of WS's are few and I can tell you, if SI did not have a safe and moderated forum for us, there would be only a very few rare individuals posting on that forum. Its too harsh and too shameful to post on other sites. I'm already doing a good enough job drowning in my own shame and guilt, I really don't need people to keep piling it on me and so, I too need a safe site to share my feelings and thoughts. SI is that site for me and I think, it should be the healing site for yours too.
And the second real reason for sharing SI with their WS is that SI was not nor is just a place of venting and anger. It's strength lies in the healing. Healing accomplished by sharing stories, challenges, successes and wisdom. By not letting your WS share in those strengths, you are denying him the very tools that he needs the most. Your spouse is here because he is broken. No less and no more. And if I can't find healing, then I continue to be broken.
Oh, I guess if I can attend IC daily, then in some respects it can replace my need for SI. If I have a local community self-help group in my local church, then I might not need SI. If I have a whole pile of good friends who have BTDT and are model WS's in their own rights, then yes, it might be true that I don't need SI.
But if I need some guidance, some support, some understanding, some 2x4s perhaps, then I think its apparent that I do need SI and yet, I might never find it because someone doesn't want me to share a forum in their safe place. No, it just doesn't make sense to me.
Again, I do understand the risks but I feel, strongly, that those risks do not outweigh the good that SI can give to the WS. I just can't see how keeping the lifesaver from the man who is drowning does anything to heal.
Part of the healing process is sharing with other people who care - Jerry Cantrell
it was also meant to be provide a safe place for the remorseful WS.
My question is, how in the hell are we able to know that our WS is remorseful? Believe what they tell us? Didn't get us very far in the M.
very common for us to tell a newly betrayed spouse to NOT tell their WS about SI..yet.
Yet is the key word. My FWW is here on my recommendation. Actions over time showed her remorse. I really had a hard time hearing "I'm sorry" over and over with no concrete actions on her part. It wasn't until she started showing me through actions and asked "what more can I do?" that I felt safe enough to share this site.
Are you familiar with Gonnabe2016? She brought her WS to this site. He posted frequently and actually received my support. Oops! He uses it against her. Used the advice given here to further suck her in and damage her further.
I agree with you in the aspects of this being a *safe* place for WS and an excellent healing resource for them. I just think that remorse has to be shown before it's safe for a BS to share though.
Sorry we're in disagreement on this. I have to admit using you as a model for my WS on many occasions.
I didn't say to never share si ....just not right away. I absolutely agree that waywards can..and are..helped here. I have a tremendous amount of respect for the Former waywards who post here. And I see the value in everything you said.
However, I stand by what I said. A new BS needs a safe place. Does their need for a safe place trump a new wayward spouse who has just been caught? Yes. In my BS opinion. You think it's a good idea to share their safe place with someone who has just put a bullet in their soul....I say why give them another bullet until you're sure they've put the gun down?
And...again...how is a newly betrayed spouse supposed to recognize true remorse? Time...and consistent actions by the wayward.
Bringing an unremorseful WS to SI can be dangerous for a BS. Some WS's use it against the BS..some use it to gather info to further hurt the BS...some use it to laugh at their BS(sad but true)...the key here is remorse..and true remorse..real, deep, honest remorse takes time.
ETA: And I don't believe a BS is trying to hinder their WS's healing by not sharing this great place with them IN THE BEGINNING after dday. Is there anything stopping a remorseful WS from looking around on the web and trying to find SI on their own? Sure, they may have to swim through some shit first on other sites, but if they are persistent, they might just find this place on their own. Im sorry, but I don't think the BS should have to cater to their WS in the first few months after dday. I don't think a BS should have to spoon feed their WS and tell them "go here" "do this" "you need to do this..and that." A WS who is proactive and takes initiative..well..THAT is the best candidate for R.
Again..remorse is the key.
And...again...I have a great deal of respect for this site..our former waywards..and what this site represents. But a foggy WS who may still be in the affair..or is lying..or won't go NC..or whatever their foggy bullshit may be..bringing that WS to SI can backfire on a BS.
[This message edited by confused615 at 1:07 PM, March 9th (Sunday)]
I'm with confused.
I think fear, uncertainty, and doubt, and the horror stories of games played by unremorseful WS members are exactly the main reasons that make me advise going slow on bringing WSes to SI.
FUD isn't pleasant, but it's usually highly appropriate just after finding SI.
Another good reason for hiding SI is to have a safe place. My W & I occasionally run across each other's posts, and if that happened early on, it could have caused problems. It was better for me in some respects when she didn't know my ID and didn't even read SI. I'm glad I had a year or 2 of being on SI without her.
But: YMMV - never was an acronym more true.
I never found any other good site for support and counsel - every other site I found bashes WSes relentlessly, and that never helped me much. I needed help resolving my pain, and dumping on my W just didn't work.
WRT to helping WSes, I don't know, but my W gets something out of SI. Posts from reconciled and reconciling fWSes helped me immensely in my early days, so I think it's fair to say fWSes on SI give a lot of help to at least some BSes.
But my sense is that new WSes tend to react negatively at first - from time to time there are threads saying so.
My W, for example, felt from the start that her survival as a human being required changing herself. She, too, was filled with shame and desperately wanted R. Even so, when she joined SI almost 2 years after D-Day, when we were well into R, she thought the original responses she got were excessively 'harsh'. It put her off for a while.
I don't fault her for that - you guys confront newbies in no uncertain terms, but IMO it's hard for some newbies to understand and may scare some away, if only for a while.
I'll say this: I hadn't thought in your terms before, and you make a lot of sense.
In the end, we may have to agree to disagree on when to invite WSes to join SI.
[This message edited by sisoon at 1:30 PM, March 9th (Sunday)]
Some don't know the difference between remorse and regret until it's pointed out to them. Hell as a BS, I don't think I was clear about it, at the outset.
A remorseful WS with years of healing under their belt, is equipped to guide and recognize the difference.
I'd prefer a newly discovered WS drop in early on, before they have a chance to reinforce any misguided ideas that regret, is anything like remorse. It seems those that have had a lot of time to reinforce faulty thinking, don't stick around, because their ideas are challenged for what they are.
And never ever discount the future effects of a well planted mind seed.
[This message edited by refuz2bavictim at 1:58 PM, March 9th (Sunday)]
How is your WS going to develop the skills and abilities to heal themselves or you if your fears have prevented him from finding the best online forum there is for the WS?
[This message edited by sinsof thefather at 1:50 PM, March 9th (Sunday)]
it was also meant to be provide a safe place for the remorseful WS
The unremorseful WSs we are talking about are still looking for justifications, validations, and ways to minimize their actions. They are looking for things they can use to blameshift, gaslight, and rugsweep in order to avoid facing their behavior. Unremorseful WS can be cruel and nasty and it is shocking to what extent they will go to cover their asses.
The WSs in the WS forum aren't these same people. They might still be fighting some unhealthy thinking patterns and behavior but they already show some commitment by being here.
I know many BSs who would give their right leg to have their WS come and get help in the WS forum.
For me, SI has been the one place I can rely on for good, practical, proven advice. Early on it was the most direct key to my sanity. It is of the upmost importance that the traumatized BS has a safe place.
If the BS feel they can trust their WS, then sharing SI is important thing to do. Ones who can not be trusted should not be given another tool by which they can harm the BS with.
I've said it before but my WH using things he learned here against me was much more painful than anything he did in his As. He found a path straight through to my heart and twisted it hoping I'd stop searching for the truth. It made me want to stop coming to SI. BSs with unremorseful WSs should be warned of that possibility.
I found SI because I was looking for help,a place where I wouldnt feel so totally "exposed"
if WS needs a safe place,then let him look for it.If he finds SI,great!I had to look at a couple of bad forums before I found SI.
It will mean that he is looking for whatever he feels he needs.Not me doing the work for him but him doing it for himself.
Just another thought.I was a WG when I was young and in a relationship.It is truely only as a BS that one can understand what it is for your trust to be gone in an instant.The unsafe feelings.The fierce need to guard not only your heart but your words,your expression on your face,YOURSELF!How your best friend can become a stranger in a moment,threatening your very existance!!Your need to protect yourself against this person that you just dont recognize is overwhelming until you can find that moment when you believe something,anything, that he says is the truth.
If he came on SI in the first couple of months after D day (no threat of that,fog was too thick) I would have gone somewhere else for support.
I didnt want him to see anything I might have expressed ANYWHERE for a good few months.
I am,however,one to really root for remorseful WS's.Find Wayward forum really really interesting and helpful.I admire WS that gets it and love seeing the fog disappear.Please just dont tell me that most WS are here at the reccomendation of their BS's!
Anyhow,of course everyone will feel different obout this issue,depending where you are on this journey and on which side of the coin your face is.
Wh never was remorseful but he played the part for most of a year... He tried to get me to delete all of my evidence of the A and much more. I regret ever sharing my safe place. Remorseful WS are a different story. I think BS need a little time for their safety before ever sharing SI.
It's possible for a WS to find SI on their own. More than likely the BS found it that way. So how is that denying the WS this great healing experience?
My ipad does a lot of crazy typos.
After doing some thinking this afternoon on the comments, I have come to the conclusion that my argument was flawed because it was based on my experience and that of fellow FWS and that is the crucial flaw.
If I crunch the numbers, I find that most of the members of SI are BSís. With a review of profiles and taglines, it would seem that for every BS that came here because of a singular event, there are others who are here because their spouses were/are serials cheaters, quite often guilty of manipulation, violence, abuse and other despicable behaviors.
I have come to learn that if I compare the percentages of WS to BS, it becomes apparent that most WSís are not on this site at all. For each WS who came here for healing, there are a hundred more who declined the opportunity for self-healing. We are the exception and not the norm.
In ethics, quite often we debate the good of the few vs. the good of the many. In this case, I agree that the many must win out. The BS has a more immediate need for a safe place for support. The disclosure of the affair is not unlike a bomb burst, destroying the very foundations of trust and love within a marriage. Like a car accident scene, if we were applying triage principles, the BS would be the one in the most immediate need. The WS has the lesser injury.
I still stand by my thoughts that finding a safe and healing place is critical for the WS however I can better understand why you feel that unless or until the WS has taken some steps forward (establishing NC, scheduling IC), then perhaps, the need for a safe healing place for the BS takes priority over the needs of the WS.
I have a lot of respect for you, Hufi. Thank you for your last post.
finding a safe and healing place is critical for the WS
It's hard to help someone who won't help himself or who believes that there's a *quick fix* available.
And LL, your WH seems to be one who isn't really *in* for helping himself right now. He's quite busy swirling around in the shame spiral and that is going to get him NOWHERE and send you a long way down Frustration Road.
Some WS' who are led here by their BS' use the site for its intended purpose, others look around and then take a meh attitude and then go along about their business, and then there are the ones who use it as ammunition against their BS'. And because I am one whose WS happened to fall into that last category, I know how awful that is....and I am one who strongly advises AGAINST sharing SI with the WS. And anecdotally, it seems that the WS' on the site who make the greatest strides in their personal healing are those who find the site all on their own.
In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.
During those first devastating days, I showed him the article about the Fog, without showing him where I got it, and he was astounded at how it fit. He felt like he wasn't alone and that there was hope. But I'd only shown him the one article since I'd posted on the site and wanted some privacy.
I don't remember if he found the site again while he was looking again for that article about the Fog, but he did come on here briefly and got so much help and support from someone who made certain he got How to Help Your Spouse Heal From the Affair, or something like that. He memorized everything in it and implements what he learned to this day.
However, he did find my postings (he told me a day or two later) and was devastated by some of the replies I got from my first cries for help. Some of them said basically to kick him out, among other things. See, his was way more than a "usual" affair with another woman (and that is in no way making that less devastating!), since it included other sexual behavior as well. He was panicked by the comments and conclusions some people came to.
I was waiting for word from the specialized therapist before making a decision (plus everyone said to wait before making a decision about anything because of the initial shock), and knew that some posters were going through their own pain. And other, less vitriolic voices were what I heard.
I haven't posted on this site for help as much as I would like since our situation not only includes something resembling the "usual" affair (again, not minimizing anyone else's pain! No way would I do that) but also has other kinds of infidelities and most people immediately jump to conclusions (I would have done the same thing so I'm not judging). But I do check in every so often because this is the best site to let me know I'm not alone and for the mostly caring responses people get.
So while I understand why people might want to keep their WS away, I am eternally thankful for mine finding this site and getting help when he needed it. He hasn't posted on here since, relying on his therapist and our MC. But he also is eternally grateful for the initial help during that first week and how it affected everything else in our Recovery and Reconciliation in such a positive manner. It's true that
This is the best help for infidelity site I've seen and we both owe a lot to the wonderful people on it.
But what I came back to add is a little further explanation about why I strongly caution newbies against *bringing* the WS directly to SI -- Newbies are typically emotionally fragile. Showing a WS who is *claiming* to be remorseful this site is serving up a big dose of BS trust on a platter. And if that trust is abused -- it is a whole 'nother huge betrayal dumped on top of a person who is already really damaged -- and that is just devastating.
[This message edited by gonnabe2016 at 6:48 PM, March 9th (Sunday)]
I am a WW and I found SI before my BH did...I told him after DDay that I had found a site and been going on it a lot, and encouraged him to check it out cuz I thought it would be helpful to him also...he has told me it was helpful for him (especially in the beginning) to read my posts and see what I was feeling and going through. He is a member of the sight but doesn't post often, he does however read my posts and it has helped initiate many conversations between us.
I know that my story isn't exactly what this topic is about, but just wanted to share the experience we have had.