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Badhurt posted 3/11/2014 09:22 AM

My basic story was posted in January response to a poster, but the recent publicity on Piers Morgan at CNN and newspaper publicity that this Duke porn star coed has gotten has triggered my thoughts as to why we are seeing increases in infidelity in both men and women today, a topic that all of us here have been affected by in some manner. So I thought I would post my thoughts and invite comment.
On the female side, we have a whole almost generation of young women who have been raised in the "hook up" generation at an age where their sexual identities are formed. They are constantly taught that men can be manipulated by sex (probably true to some extent)and the contradictory messages they get makes it no wonder that more and more they give in to the excitement of cheating. Examples of this confusing stuff are if a woman decides to have sex with a stranger for $500/hour we lock her up and call her a prostitute, but if she chooses to do what the Duke coed did, have sex for $1200, but someone films it and puts it on the internet, we then call her an adult actress. I am not making any kind of political statement one way or the other, but we all know this Duke girl is not the only one doing this. There was just an article in major publications about the explosion in young women seeking older Sugar Daddies to pay for their college expenses and they all too do not regard this as any form of prostitution. In fact, they are probably a lot of their peers that secretly wish they had the nerve to do it. So how do we as men potential partners expect that there will be no increase in infidelity from partners who regard having sex with strangers in any form as an acceptable method of meeting their obligations. If someone can justify that mentally even if they don't actually do it, why would simply breakng a vow be such a big deal. It's only sex, right, and it's empowering?
Now before all the ladies go bonkers on me, we guys are not blameless. Guys lust after these girls with the "new attitude", then we think we settle down with one that is different, but the first time we run into a lady with the attitude of this new sexuality, we cant keep it in our pants so we cheat also.
The older and more mature women are not immune from the fallout of this. A lot of them also now accept the premise that a liberated women has the right to have an affair if she feels her husband does not treat her "right". Hence the explosion of females registering on the shithead Ashley Madison site and others. And because women tend to share more of their personal lives with their friends, it becomes even more devastating when the friends become the wing woman or enabler. And guess what, when the guys run into these women at work or the clubs, guess what happens with more frequency?
I apologize for the length of this, and I apologize if anyone is offended. I just think the hurt that all on this board have experienced is something that more and more people are going to suffer from. That is sad, but I see no end to the trends we are seeing.

Ascendant posted 3/11/2014 09:51 AM

I don't really think that people are cheating more....I just think that more people are getting caught doing it. There's no great scientifically accurate way to study the subject, but I'd think that people have always cheated (men and women both) in roughly the same numbers as they do now.

That being said, it does SEEM like an increase because it gets so much attention when public figures do it. Also, it's become more socially acceptable for the BS to 'go public' with it and seek out support, whereas 25 years ago they would have kept it private and suffered in silence.

So how do we as men potential partners expect that there will be no increase in infidelity from partners who regard having sex with strangers in any form as an acceptable method of meeting their obligations.
I mean, I think this part is easier than it seems. You just make it clear that you expect fidelity in your relationships (however the two of you jointly define it) and then expect that your partner is going to follow that standard. You can't control them, but you have the right to define your expectations for a partner, and if they don't like it they're free to leave at any time.

With regards to attention paid to the subject of infidelity by's the old adages, over and over: "Sex sells", and "If It Bleeds, It Leads." It's mostly sensationalism.

[This message edited by Ascendant at 9:57 AM, March 11th (Tuesday)]

Lovedyoumore posted 3/11/2014 10:59 AM

Absolutely there is an increase, especially if you include the broader definition of infidelity that SI embraces. We now recognize cyber cheating as infidelity, not just the old fashioned physical hook up. Moving past porn into chat rooms, sexting, avatars, and such keep sucking in people who would not go out for a physical relationship. The Ashley Madison group's in-your-face media campaign shows a changing attitude toward what is acceptable these days. I know there have always been cheaters, but we do have a couple of generations who have been influenced to do what feels good rather than what is right. Sex is traded for self esteem at a rising rate and sadly, relationships have no value in that market. My generation has been bad enough, but I fear for the ones we raised in a media engrossing world where sex sells, sex is available on Craig's list, and sex is cheap. Now, I feel old.

norabird posted 3/11/2014 11:05 AM

Personally (not to go lady-bonkers ) I have the 'new attitude'--not of taking on sugar daddies (!), but of seeing sex as just sex and being fine with casual relationships/hookups in certain situations. Not as much now that I'm 30 and recovering from this infidelity shit sandwich, but I don't think it's wrong to see more casual sex as empowering when the person involved has a good sense of what their needs are. And yet let me tell you, once I was in a relationship I was in a relationship; you can still have very good boundaries despite being sexual experienced.

Bottom line, everyone is responsible for maintaining their own boundaries. And you can be a sexually progressive person with great, healthy boundaries or you can be an inexperienced and conservative person sexually with terrible boundaries. There's no intrinsic connection.

Sad in AZ posted 3/11/2014 12:53 PM

On the female side, we have a whole almost generation of young women who have been raised in the "hook up" generation at an age where their sexual identities are formed.

Are you referring to the 1960s, my dear? I heard all this back then...

Honestly, none of this is new; adultery has been around for millenia and will probably continue. I know you're new at this and trying to make sense of it all, but don't try to pigeon-hole it; it's different for everyone.

And be mindful of the misogyny. I know you made a brief reference to males in your post, but adultery and infidelity know no gender. It's neither a male nor female trait.

[This message edited by Sad in AZ at 12:54 PM, March 11th (Tuesday)]

twisted posted 3/11/2014 12:57 PM

I don't really think that people are cheating more....I just think that more people are getting caught doing it.

Yeah, those cell phone records can be a bitch!
Computer keyloggers, GPS, Google street view!

Faithful w/Love posted 3/11/2014 13:08 PM

I think we have become "A me" and selfish society, and who gives a rats ass about anyone than me. The females today are more about taking someone from someone else. There could be a room full of single men but A lot of women now days will try to seek the attention of a married man, however, the married man should know his boundaries instead of thinking with his other head and men have HUGE enablers also. I am not sure as to why but it is true.
I have don't think badly of hook up as long as the people are TRULY single.
It boils down to self respect, integrity and Character of one self. If you lack you may have an A.
I don't know but it just sucks that it happens.

[This message edited by Faithful w/Love at 1:11 PM, March 11th (Tuesday)]

Faithful w/Love posted 3/11/2014 13:10 PM

Oh and to add, it doesn't fricking help that cell phones having texting which almost always is in the cheaters way of responding, the internet, shoot you can cheat and keep secrets pretty easy now days.
Cheating has always been around but with technology now days it is WAY EASIER.

abbycadabby posted 3/11/2014 13:14 PM

And be mindful of the misogyny

Can't agree more.

Your post is a whole analysis of women- an entire paragraph- and 2 paltry sentences about men, then a quick jump back to the topic of women.

Why does society consider it to be only the females' obligation to guard virtue?

Why are men who act in a non-virtuous way just considered, "boys being boys," when they are just as culpable?

Look. Idk anything about you. Infidelity has been around since time immemorial. The advent of the internet and social media make avenues to pursue affairs more readily available. There are a plethora of varied reasons why these things occur that can't be easily summed up in a little snippet or soundbite/easily digestible format.

[This message edited by abbycadabby at 1:16 PM, March 11th (Tuesday)]

abbycadabby posted 3/11/2014 13:19 PM

The females today are more about taking someone from someone else

This is a generalization and offensive. I am a female and am "about" nothing of the sort.

[This message edited by abbycadabby at 1:22 PM, March 11th (Tuesday)]

StillGoing posted 3/11/2014 13:21 PM

Agree with everything that Ascendant and Sad in AZ said.

Just had to read Death of a Salesman since I am back in school. Willy Loman ruined his kid because his kid walked in on him fucking some other woman. This play was in the late 40s.

Objectifying women is not new. What's new is the option women have of allowing that objectification. 400 years of Crusades with millions of camp followers, take a guess at how many of those were whoring themselves out for a biscuit, and that's if they had the choice to make.

People have always been assholes. I think the raised awareness of that fact is both depressing and liberating. Accountability is a bitch.

Faithful w/Love posted 3/11/2014 13:29 PM

The females today are more about taking someone from someone else

I was not stating ALL women so I should have been clear so I apologize for that. I have seen it and have heard them. It is like a challenge to them.

I also stated that men let it happen when the woman goes for the attention from a MM or vise versa.

Again didn't mean to generalize or be offensive.

[This message edited by Faithful w/Love at 1:30 PM, March 11th (Tuesday)]

Shayna71 posted 3/11/2014 13:36 PM

Absolutely more infidelity today. In past generations it just wasn't as easy. There wasn't FB, and Kik, and AM, and FUBAR, and all the other sites that make it easy for people to say things and start things that they wouldn't in person. There weren't cell phones, and sexting, and skypine, and pics and video capabilities in your hand.

Infidelity was looked down up far more than it is today. Men and women didn't work together as they do now, as peer and colleagues, in the same environments, sharing hours and hours of time, common goals, and in many cases time alone.

There IS more infidelity now because of opportunity, accessibility, and acceptance.

Badhurt posted 3/11/2014 14:34 PM

Thanks for all the responses. JUst wanted to clear a couple of things up:
(1) Did not mean to imply that there was anything wrong with "hooking up" if you are single or unattached or even if you are in an open relationship. Then it is NOT cheating.
(2) Did not mean to imply that the increased infidelity that most agree is occuring is the fault of women. It takes two cheaters to make anything happen. The "hook up" generation (both sexes) carry this attitude into marraige or a committed relationship. The women are more available for extramarital activity and the men are more than willing to accept the offers because as the males in the hook up generation they expected it.
I dont see how anyone can say that it is the same as always. Unless you are tech savvy or a cybersecurity major, you better be pretty observant if you have any chance of catching a wandering partner. Look at how many posters have been totally blindsided simply because the wayward simply made a mistake on the technology like leaving a computer logged on. You do need a tracking device to know where your spouse is or what they are doing if you are suspicious.
I still believe non-monogamy is the trend today. I dont know about your areas but i am in a major metro area and there is a proliferation of "swingers clubs" every where you turn around.
I eventually told my college graduated daughters all of the gory details not because I wanted to, but because when I originally said it was juat infidelity. I got from the two youngest, all I got from them was "it was just sex", can't you two work it out. Once I told them everything they stopped talking to their mother.
Anyway, thanks to everyone for the reponses. Hope no arguments start over any of this.

naivewife posted 3/11/2014 14:49 PM

I have to agree with you Badhurt, it really does seem more rampant than ever. I feel very strongly that technology is a big reason. Too easy to get emotionally or sexually involved with someone behind the safety of the screen first - right in front of your family, while at your kids school events, while sitting in front of the screen at work. I mean, in the 1980s people could not carry on conversations all day with an AP while sitting at work, looking like they're working, chat on the phone in the car on the way home, then text while sitting at the dinner table, then off to skype to jack off together in front of computer screen. It's almost like you can pretend it's not real because 90% of it is actually interacting with a machine instead of human flesh. And we're all about privacy now. Everyone has their little gadget in their pocket that their spouses have no "right" to see. AP's would have to call the house before this gadgetry. WS's would have to sit in the family room surrounded by family and tell the AP that they love them and can't stand being away from them, and their spouses are psycho, and they can't wait to suck each others bits while sitting in front of their wife/husband and kids. It didn't happen. It's too easy now. I believe the use of prostitutes hasn't changed, the amount of purely physical cheating hasn't changed, but the soulmate schmoopie horseshit is more rampant than ever.

Edited to add: "In my humble opinion."

[This message edited by naivewife at 2:50 PM, March 11th (Tuesday)]

naivewife posted 3/11/2014 15:06 PM

Also noticed you used the word "liberated." Just wanted to point out the word now is "worldly." To cheat or have sex with a married person is to be "worldly." (I guess because you're f'ing the world?) "Evolved" is another option. Liberated is so 1970s!

LearnToLetGo posted 3/11/2014 15:18 PM

Jumping in here from the academic side (I teach history at the post-secondary level, just to flash the credentials), that's utter twaddle. (that's the technical term. )

The entire concept of marrying solely for love is an extraordinarily modern concept (as in, the past hundred years - it's modern to historians!). Not even touching non-western societal models in this, the notion of marrying and being sexually faithful to one person, regardless of marriage vows, was pretty much only ever applied to women, as a means of maintaining control over female sexuality and - more importantly - purity of bloodlines to establish paternity and patrilineal inheritance.

In the 16th century in England, Robert Dudley's marriage to Amye Robsart was decried publicly as "a carnal match" and thought to be most improper, because they were known to (shock!) be in love with each other! Before they married! How rude! ( )

In the 17th and 18th centuries, the cult of 'la maitresse' demanded that every man who could afford one, should keep a mistress. Or more than one. There was an official position in the hosueholds of the aristocracy for the "maîtresse en titre" - the man of the house's official mistress. (As opposed to his wife, whose role was heir-bearing, or his other side pieces who were there for fun.) As an unmarried mistress, the maîtresse en titre played political roles, acting as hostess for the gentleman's friends and their ladies.


In the 19th century, the Victorians particularly became obsessed with sexual morality in a way that eclipsed all other understanding of marital fidelity, and affairs went underground. But for men, they still continued pretty much as they always had been. The women are the ones who lost out, honestly, because a mistress' status plummeted, from the possibility of achieving social power through her link with a powerful man, to being a kept woman, and a dirty little secret.


In Europe, during the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, adultery became idealized as the highest form of love among the aristocracy. According to the Countess of Champagne, it was impossible for true love to "exert its powers between two people who are married to each other."

It's only in the twentieth century, when marrying for love took predominance over marrying for economic alliance, that we began to redefine how seriously (men) we were meant to take marriage vows that included fidelity.

So lord, by all means, feel betrayed, feel hurt, be devastated by the breach of promises made to us by the people before whom we are the most vulnerable. I'm not saying any of this to suggest that cheating is in any way excusable in the modern day! But to say that we've somehow become 'more immoral' in the modern day (subtext: because of women's sexual liberation and the changing dynamics in the family and the workplace) is absolutely and empirically untrue.

(And for the record, there were lots of workplaces in the early modern era and age of enlightenment when men and women worked together. Women didn't get forced out of the public sphere in the west until the 18th century.)

Badhurt posted 3/11/2014 16:07 PM

Naive wife- thanks for correcting my word choice

Learn To Let Go- I'm not smart enough to know if what you are stating makes sense but since I was only a C student Ill accept what you said

LearnToLetGo posted 3/11/2014 16:15 PM

The short form: men have always been not only allowed but often encouraged to cheat, in the west. It's only in the last eighty years or so that people have started marrying mostly for love, and cheating became less acceptable.

Basically, men who cheat are following old traditions, not getting worse, and women are picking up bad habits from the olden days. It may be more noticable today because we don't accept cheating as 'the way it always is' any more, but it's not actually happening more than it used to.

StillGoing posted 3/11/2014 16:26 PM

I dont see how anyone can say that it is the same as always.

I think several people who did gave a cursory explanation, but rather than be dismissed outright I'll explain a little more.

It is the same as always because people have been saying the exact same shit for more than two thousand years. There are letters from the Roman Republic bitching about having to go to a holiday dinner because some asshole is going to be there, and it's too late to find a gift for Saturnalia, and that other dickhead always squeezes the olives too hard or something.

Augustus enforced morality laws when he came to power. Hell, the Lex Julia had specifics when it came to infidelity:

In 18 B.C., the Emperor Augustus turned his attention to social problems at Rome. Extravagance and adultery were widespread. Among the upper classes, marriage was increasingly infrequent and, many couples who did marry failed to produce offspring. Augustus, who hoped thereby to elevate both the morals and the numbers of the upper classes in Rome, and to increase the population of native Italians in Italy, enacted laws to encourage marriage and having children (lex Julia de maritandis ordinibus), including provisions establishing adultery as a crime.

The law against adultery made the offence a crime punishable by exile and confiscation of property. Fathers were permitted to kill daughters and their partners in adultery. Husbands could kill the partners under certain circumstances and were required to divorce adulterous wives. Augustus himself was obliged to invoke the law against his own daughter, Julia, and relegated her to the island of Pandateria. [15]

Two thousand years.

You know what else hasn't changed? People are fucking stupid. That's why people get caught. If you want to get away with something you keep it as simple as possible. The fewer moving parts there are, the fewer problems that can conceivably arise. Yet here we are with all this technology that is supposed to enable cheating. Two thousand years ago you to catch someone you had to walk in on them fucking or find a letter to Dominii Fuckatronicux and frankly, the literacy rates back then were questionable in relation to the modern era when it comes to the common strata of socioeconomic demographics.

So while all these magical new means of communication open up magical new lines of befuckery, it doesn't enable secrecy, it enables stupidity. Because, speaking as a network security type I can tell you that while nobody has cracked a home password by running a triple DES bypass with a 807.87 sundrycard maximal connected to a PC with an 802.11g cable - all of which is a bunch of horse shit I made up except for one acronym and one number - there are so goddamn many people out there who leave a password written down in their desk drawer it's not just the bulk of security issues but a fucking movie cliche anymore.

An app to keep shit secret? It makes no fucking difference. If they wanted to make sure it was secret they wouldn't use a damned phone to jabber away like imbecile teenagers hopped up on New Coke and New Hormones and unload 3000 text messages a month. I don't care how hard you try to hide that shit, the time is spent there and eventually it will catch up unless they spend so damn much time investing in hiding it their cocks and c***s fall off from anxiety and planning for the NSA sweep that's going to barrel through because they think a terrorist is planning shit for all the code and secrecy they have loaded up.

That's not the case though. Most people are a lot more confident in the shit they want to hide than they ought to be. What the real issue is taking advantage of trust. That's why when someone new comes here to SI and tells their story, everyone marks out the endless list of red flags. Standing there yourself, you can't see it. Not because they're hidden so well, but because you have no reason to not trust this person.

I say it's the same as always because there was no better days when it came to morality in general. THESE are the better days. That doesn't mean everything is awesome, because we aren't legos. That would be awesome. But when you look at people getting divorced by pretending they're suddenly related and grants based on consanguinity from being eighteenth cousins on the dogs side it's really just the same bullshit dressed up in a different generation of pop culture excuses. They need to be called out for what they are, and you're right, there are a lot of cheaters around.

You know the worst part? It's if you really do turn out to be right. Because that means people have always WANTED to be cheating fucksnacks, but were too chickenshit to do anything about it until now. That all this technology has enabled the cowardice of previous generations to unleash itself in its full primal glory of craven debauchery. Because it's sure not got a damn thing to do with morality changing. We don't set people on fire for being old women that smell funny and talk to themselves anymore or tie people to trucks and drag them around until they die because they reflect photons at different wavelength. Or whatever, you know what I mean. That shit isn't legal anymore. That shit is now AMORAL.

That's how I say this shit is the same as always.

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