Prior to DDay: We have been married less than two years and she just went back to professional school in August. She had been extremely busy and when she wasn't working, she was socializing with her classmates. I joined in when I could and when she invited me, but she had been prioritizing hanging with her classmates more and more since school has begun. She also became really close to a male friend and had been spending a lot of time with him - and when they weren't together they would chat, text, etc. We would fight about it and I'd tell her it was inappropriate and it made me feel like shit but it continued and got worse. Prior to DDay she would gaslight, treat me like I was crazy and tell me I was controlling and possessive and jealous about her friendships, especially with this guy.
Turns out my fears were correct.
The story now: So about two weeks ago we had been arguing more and more and I knew something was up so I started to gather my information and snooping a bit more. I didn't really find anything too incriminating but I kept asking her and she kept getting more and more defensive. She would hide stuff, obfuscate the truth and generally just be shady. I was going through an extremely stressful time with work and she was only making it more difficult. She also would say things and do things that made me know intuitively she was cheating on me or thinking about it. She would say - I really think its ok for married people to just make out with other people when they are drunk or I really don't understand monogamy, its so hard, etc. She would also say things about the now-OM that were obvious she feelings for him like he understands me better, etc. I tried to get her to go to counseling with me but she would improve a bit at the request or just deny the request. She would also tell me about how she talked about her marriage with the OM and other intimate stuff, which I told her was not a good idea. She said she would stop and lied about it when she talked to him again. There is way more stuff but I don't feel like it is necessary to discuss it all at this point.
About a week before DDay after one night of fighting she came to me the next day and told me that she felt better about us and that she was going to try to work things out. I was surprised and asked her what changed? She gave me a number of non-answers and for a few days she withdrew from her new friendships at school and starting to hang out with me more.
After about a week of this I asked again her what had changed? Why did she suddenly want to recommit to the marriage? I asked her once again if she had ever done anything with the guy that she became really close to and she said - "we kissed once a few months ago when I was really drunk." She then told me that was it and that there had been tension the whole time but nothing happened. They were just friends after the kiss and it was normal.
I was obviously upset, more so about her lying at this point for so long but was not satisfied in the answers she gave me. I left the house for the day and the next night proceeded to ask her more stuff. Finally, she broke down and said "we kissed three other times recently and about a month ago he forced me to give him oral sex when I was blackout drunk." She says that it was only a few seconds because they were in a semi-public area and someone yelled at them. She says that she told him nothing was going to happen and told him she didn't want to do anything like that but that he continued to pressure her and force her. I assume she relented for a bit because she felt like she led him on (which she did). She says that she doesn't remember what happened other than that but she knows she didnt go anywhere else with him and that was all that happened. She says that they only kissed one time after that and that she had been feeling so guilty and shitty about it that it prompted her to try to change our marriage. She says she was extremely drunk every time anything physical happened and never intended for it to get this far. I am not sure what to believe. I have no evidence that anything else happened and she consistently denies having sex with him. I still obviously have my doubts.
After these admissions, she was completely in the numb and in the fog. She was nearly comatose for a day or two and would sit there and cry about losing "her friend." I told her that she had to write him an NC letter and she said she had to do it in person. I told her to record the conversation if that was the case, which she did. She didn't make it explicitly clear in the recording that she could not ever talk to him again but she says she had a second conversation with him after the first one (which she couldnt record because of some reason?) that she told him I knew everything and that she couldnt talk to him, etc. I told her that until we get things settled I dont want her going to any social events at school where OM would be. She agreed and has followed through, albeit with a lot of pushback. Also, she dropped out of a class she had with him and has not been involved in social aspects of school even when he hasn't been. She also has started going to IC and we are looking for a MC. I have not found evidence of any contact with the OM since DDay.
Here are my issues now - she seems like she wants to work on the marriage but she also has been reluctant to make any concessions as to her behavior in the future. She still expects me to eventually be OK with her going out to the same school drinking events (where these issues happened in the first place), hang out with the same group of friends who knew that something sketchy was going on (although maybe not the whole story) and just not talk to the OM. She expects me to eventually (within the next month or so) be comfortable with going and hanging out with all these people who are good friends with the OM and a few of who know that she at least kissed him a few times. She expects me to let her go out alone with these people and join her at times. She says she is trying to make new friends but that it is too hard. She expects that I should be fine with her hanging out with the same people who know something shady went down and acted like everything was fine when they saw me.
She is also supposed to go away in a few months for a class with a few classmates (none of the friends or the OM) and she is supposed to travel alone/with one other female friend for a bit before this. I am extremely uncomfortable with this arrangement and don't know what to do. To make matters worse we are supposed to go on vacation in a few days and she has been constantly talking about her upset she is that she isnt going on vacation with her classmates like most people. Why should I want to go on a trip with her when I am her second choice?
I am honestly so messed up thinking about all this stuff and how we could possibly work things out. I don't know what to do and just needed some people to talk to that were outside of the situation. I have plenty more if anyone has questions. Please help me understand! Thanks so much for listening.
Sounds like your WW thinks she's back in highschool. She has know idea what being married means.
You do not deserve to be #2 on anyones list, espeialy your wifes.
I'd hold off on the vacation.
"Affairs are not mistakes, they are a series of deliberate choices." - CrappyLife
"Regret is when you realize you broke your own heart.
Remorse is when you realize you broke someone else's." - Blakesteele
We weren't at a good place in our marriage..
I hadn't had my D day yet,I had no proof of an A yet, but I could see changes in my WH that I didn't like..
I had caught him in some major lies.. My skin crawled at the thought of WH and I focusing on each other romantically during this vacation..
In light of the discussions that you and your W have had and her revelations to date, I would not go on this trip if I were you..
Her reaction to finding out that you don't want to go can be one of the answers you need about her and her behavior..
And if she wants to keep the marriage and is remorseful (not regretful that she was caught) she will step back and reevaluate her friends and her need to hang out with that particular set of friends..
There are many activities that colleges and professional schools have to offer, not all of them involve drinking..
I would venture to say that the minority of the school activities where she can make new friends have to involve drinking..
For example, she could get involved in activities that are humanitarian or service related..
I am having missed thoughts on the vacation. On one hand I feel like we could fight the whole time and on the other I feel like it could be a good time to rebond. Our fighting is on and off, for a day or two we may be fine and then we fight for a day. Sometimes it is her putting pressure on me to be fine with her going to these school things and other times it is me fighting with her about her friends and what not.
I just never know what is proper and she has manipulated me in the past about friendships like this. I tell her I don't feel comfortable about her these same friends and she basically says she is going to divorce me and we fight and fight. The fights are always about either her rejoining the same group of friends, hanging out with the same people as before or going to the school drinking stuff. She still continues to be good friends, although they arent going drinking anymore, with two of the guys in the group of friends who knew about her being inappropriate. One of them is the best friend of the OM. I have said that this makes me uncomfortable and she says there is nothing wrong with those friends and she will under no circumstances stop talking to them.
At this time I'm sure you are reeling. I know I was at a few weeks out. Some basic things that you should be demanding at this time:
1. Complete transparency and honesty about what happened: I'm sure there's more to the story than she lets on, and you should prepare yourself for the possibility that they had sex and that she might have told him she was in love with him.
2. Complete access to phones and computers--passwords, phone records, list of messaging apps (viber, kik, whatsapp, etc), anything else you want. No privacy.
3. ZERO contact with OM and any associated with him, including her drinking buddies. Since things are so fresh you might want to consider writing a NC letter together to send to OM. You were robbed of the chance to control the message when your WW chose to have a "private" conversation with him. There is no room for "private" anything in a M. She was wrong to do that. My H did the same thing and it's a major sticking point 3 months out for us.
Please read. If she won't do it with you, then do it alone for yourself. Go to the Healing Library, so much good stuff there. These books were really helpful to me and others in the immediate aftermath of DDay:
After the Affair
How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair (recommend reading that one with your WW)
Not Just Friends
I'm so sorry you are going through this. I really feel for you and please continue to post. SI is a great resource.
Bluntly, your WW has rocks in her head if she thinks that you would ever be comfortable with her going out drinking with "friends" after you've learned that she drinks to where she blacks out, and that the people that she is partying with are OK with a married woman making out with another man. If all these people were in high school, I'd say grow up, but at this point, one would assume that they are. Sheesh!
You shouldn't have to tell your WW that her ever, ever going out into the same circumstances that led her to giving another man ORAL SEX in PUBLIC isn't going to fly. However, since it seems like she has the common sense of a gnat, this is what you might tell her.
You are an adult and you may do as you wish. I will not stay married to you if you decide that going out with these people is more important to you than our marriage. I will not stay married to you if you go out drinking without me. It's your decision. You may either go out partying with people who I do not consider to be friends of our marriage, or you may stay married to me. Make your decision.
D-Day, June 10, 2012
my wife and I have been married for a little less than two years.
You have been married less than two years. You did not mention having any children so I am assuming you do not have any.
Married less than two years. No children.
Married less than two years and she has already lied, deceived and betrayed you in the deepest way.
She claims the LEAST of the activity was giving this man oral sex in a public place.
Based on experience, I and many others here can tell you that it is EXTREMELY unlikely that this is the truth and that she is minimizing what actually took place over a fairly long period of time. It is pretty much a guarantee that they have had more than just oral sex.
I know that right now you are in incredible pain. I know the feeling.
I want to imagine that you had children with this woman.
Now, multiply that pain by 100. That is the level of pain you feel when children are involved.
Would you WANT this woman to be the mother of your children?
She has shown pretty quickly that she is willing to lie and deceive.
Wait till she goes through the stresses of parenthood.
Really look at this woman right now. Look at how she is now in just two years.
What will she be like in 5, 10 20 years?
At this point, I would seriously consider whether you want to spend you life with someone who would do this.
I learned from my own experience that my gut was always right. Always. If you don't think you have complete info, you probably don't. Especially since the claim is basically that this guy sexually assaulted he...yet she misses him?
Women are not friends with men who take advantage of their drunkenness to force acts of a sexual nature. They don't continue talking to, and later miss, someone who has treated them in this fashion. I think the story about being forced into oral sex is just a lie meant to placate you and that there must have been willing participation at the very least. And if not, if she really does miss an abuser while being married to a good guy? Then you have huge problems in a different direction, because that is so beyond broken.
She agreed and has followed through, albeit with a lot of pushback.
Here are my issues now - she seems like she wants to work on the marriage but she also has been reluctant to make any concessions as to her behavior in the future
To make matters worse we are supposed to go on vacation in a few days and she has been constantly talking about her upset she is that she isnt going on vacation with her classmates like most people.
Follow through from someone who is really remorseful involves ZERO pushback. It involves accepting your terms. It involves WANTING to reconnect with the betrayed partner and make them feel special, not whining about being left out of other social activities.
Her current behavior shows that she still has an incredibly wayward attitude, full of selfish entitlement. She is NOT safe for you right now. Frankly...I think she may never be. She sounds extremely immature. Does she want life to just be a perpetual college party scene or something?
Again, I'm really sorry, but step back and think really hard about who she is showing you she is, and believe her. Here's a good motto:
She needs to grow up and you need to realize that she may decide that married life isn't what she was expecting.
As for the vacation, tell her that you don't want to go. If she balks or starts a fight, you'll know what she really wants. Fun and games, not married.
It was my scenario that I fought with my WH about wanting to party without me..It was impractical for me to party with him, we had a 3 month old baby..
So I couldn't party with him..He didn't care..His ONS during a party and subsequent behavior led to life long consequences for us both..
He ended up being locked up in jail for a few days because of his need to party and experience new stuff in a bad way..
I am feeling the consequences even though it is some 30 years later :-(
Let me state a couple of things:
I feel like she is regretful that she cannot do all the things she wants to do in school and it is overcoming her remorse.
There is NO remorse. Just some self-pity.
She constantly feels bad about how she messed up this fun time in her life and not about how she messed up our marriage.
Bingo. Obviously, you have noticed that none of her real concerns are about you.
I know that you are still reeling, but you have to ask yourself---What are you going to do about it?
Your wife is extremely immature. She has cheated and lied to your face. Your gut is telling you that there is much more...which is probably 99.999% correct. We know this because we have been there. And this viewpoint isn't coming from a bunch of jaded, better, betrayed people; it is coming from the repeated patterns that we see every day from newly betrayed members.
You can't control her. You can't fix her. But you can control yourself, and what you will and won't accept in life. And if what you have experienced the last few months isn't what you want the rest of your life to be, then you will need to actions to protect yourself.
Start preparing yourself mentally, and financially, for divorce.
See an attorney. Learn your rights. See a counselor for yourself, if you feel it may help. Prepare yourself to enforce some boundaries on your wife...and be prepared to follow through with consequences if she refuses.
---The other guy has to be out of her life....forever.
---those same friends that were aware of her cheating, have also got to go.
---the going out drinking, at least until you have come up with an acceptable level of trust, has to go.
---She has to come clean on what unacceptable actions she has been involved with.
---She has to be an open book with you, to help rebuild trust. Honesty and transparency are mandatory.
All of these above are merely the absolute basics that will need to be WILLINGLY shown by your wife. There is no guarantee that you can get past her cheating. She handed you a "get the hell out of this marriage without a fucking hint of guilt" card when she crossed the line with this other guy. And that's not even taking into account that she hasn't shed one tear for YOUR hurts.
It is time for you to find a little self-deserved anger towards your wife. Show her how serious that you are. If she threatens divorce? Let her know, with total calm and coolness, that she has the ability to file today...just as you have that same ability. Playing chicken will get you nowhere. Showing her intolerance to poor boundaries will---it will show her, and yourself, just how serious you are.
Because as much as you are hurting, you KNOW that you can't continue like this.
All work and no play has just cost me my wife--Gary Puckett
D-Day: 9/18/09 D-Day#2: 2/19/10 The Marriage Killer: 6/6/11
Heading for D
Read up on the 180. It's in the Healing Library on the left. Start it ASAP and that means, no vacation with her. If the 180 doesn't work, I would see an attorney, cut my losses and get the hell out of Dodge. Please take care of yourself, eat, drink, sleep.
"Your value doesn't decrease based on someone's inability to see your worth." -Unknown Wise Person
Run.......no kids....you are young....you sound very intelligent.....
Run........don't look back.
If she snaps back to grown up land....thats fine...but for your own welfare.....Run
1. She misses her friend is normal. This is often referred to "withdrawal." Her illicit relationship is like a drug that releases the same reward chemicals in the brain as drugs or alcohol. She won't be "normal" until this phase passes. IC will help her. She should not vent to you about missing her friend. She can vent to IC or a friend not in the same social circle as her school friends (That means she would also have to admit what she did)
2. Her threats to Divorce aren't serious. She feels in the wrong and she is jockying for position right now, combined with her withdrawal, she isn't thinking rationally.
So, my advice, is to call her bluff. She is clearly lying or withholding enough to keep the option of OM open to her. If she wants him she can have him. MY doubt OM would stick around for very long once she is "free." Low life scum like him don't want a girlfriend. He wants an easy lay without having to put up with her crap. You ar shouldering that now. So quit shouldering it.
Look, you are never going to nice her back into the M. Detachment and calling her bluff is the only thing that is going to let her sink to rock bottom. She will have to get there before she realizes what she has done and wants to fix it not just say she does.
DS 1, DD 6
Dday 8/31/11. ONS that occurred 3 years earlier. Lied to for 3 years.
Every truth comes to light in a long enough timeline.
Thanks so many for the minds and advice. It has really cleared up a lot of jumbled thoughts in my head.
I am sure of what my plan is for after this weekend but I am not sure how to handle the vacation issue. I know I am under no circumstances going to go with her. That is not an option. Should I just go by myself and cancel her ticket? Or should I not go at all? I am not sure how much fun I'd be having alone and in this state for the time it would be. But I'd really like to get away for a few days. Any suggestions?
I had a work trip to the SW two weeks after my DDay and a friend had already planned to join me there for the weekend. Yes, I was upset while I was there, and still very involved in what was happening, but there were a few moments of calm where I could look around me and enjoy the feeling of being away in a new place. I think it was good for me but truly everyone is different.
Your WW has already shown that she cannot be trusted and that she has no remorse for what she's done. Regret that she got caught, certainly. But no remorse. Given that you'll be out of town, I'm betting that she's going to go right back out with her friends and continue partying.
Now, Iím certainly not saying to not go. This could actually bring you some clarity as to if she has any remorse and/or desire to actually stay in this marriage or not. If you go, my suggestion is to let her know that you are going by yourself to try to have the alone time to wrap your head around her betrayal and see if you have any desire to continue in this marriage. And that your expectation is that, if SHE has any desire to continue on in this marriage, that she will put a tracker on her phone, have it on at all times, and have that phone with her physically at all times so that should you want/need to contact her, you have that ability. That she go to school/work and then go directly home each day. And any other deviation from that is a clear and loud signal to you from her that she truly desires a divorce.
Just a thought.
Why should I want to go on a trip with her when I am her second choice?
You shouldn't. Tell her you are going by yourself to spend time determining if you really want this M or not. Her being there is just going to ruin it.
You can't control what she does, but if she hasn't, tell you need access to her phone email and other items. 100% transparency while you are gone and get back, no deleting anything. If she has nothing to hide she shouldn't be concerned, right ? This isn't to punish her, it is to help restore the trust you have lost in her as a result of EA/PA. Think of it as a test. Why is she being tested . . .oh yeah she engaged in an EA/PS without someone outside the M. As far as you are concerned she is liar and the burden is on her to prove the contrary.
EA/PA. Doesn't matter if it was just for a second. My guess you aren't getting the full story their either. I would put my life savings on it. Almost all Waywards go from the same playbook. Changing the story to make it seem like it is not as bad as it really is ? Textbook foggy WS behavior.
Bottom line she os acting like a spoiled little brat who is pouting because you won't let her play with her friends. She is acting immaturely, but wants to be treated like an adult, then she should act like one.
Take a hard line with this. Her emotional affair with OM is grounds for a D alone.